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terryharvey2005
07-07-2009, 11:52 AM
Hi
I am stuck with a the death of James John Harvey.
information I have as follows.

birth not 100% sure 1858 in st george in the east
married Catherine Dee 1879 st george in the east, age given as 20
1901 census living at sage st, Shadwell spelling mistake on name James Harrey age given as 40.
He is deceased on his son's marriage cert in 1918
I have a death cert for James John Harvey in 1909 gives age as 44, but informant is resident officer The city infirmary Bromley (which I assume is Bromley by Bow as the district is Poplar). Not convinced that it is him as occupation is a domestic groom and I know that he was a dock laborer

Is there a way to confirm this as him or maybe it is not him and he died maybe abroad in the first world war.

I have given up a number of times on this and I would love some help as I keep coming back to this year after year.

many thanks

terry

sue2white
07-07-2009, 12:42 PM
Is this him in 1881?

James Harvey
Age: 22
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1859
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Catharine
Gender: Male
Where born: Ireland

Civil parish: St George in The East
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address: 1 Bowyers Building
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education:

Employment status: View image
Occupation: Dock Labourer

Registration district: St George In The East
Sub-registration district: St Mary


Name Age
James Harvey 22
Catharine Harvey 22
Daniel Harvey 2
James Harvey


RG11; Piece: 452; Folio: 80; Page: 27;

Sue;)

terryharvey2005
07-07-2009, 12:44 PM
yes that is him

terry

Raffaele
07-07-2009, 1:44 PM
To find a John Harvey with a wife Catherine on the 1911 census I had to revert to +/- 5 years on his birth and the only one I could find was in Sunderland.

Does not prove anything, but does add to the case that the 1909 death could be yours.

What happened to Catherine I think could be more helpful. Why did the resident officer report the death and not Catherine. The infirmary was probably also the work house so I would not assign too much accuracy to the age or occupation.

terryharvey2005
07-07-2009, 1:48 PM
To find a John Harvey with a wife Catherine on the 1911 census I had to revert to +/- 5 years on his birth and the only one I could find was in Sunderland.

Does not prove anything, but does add to the case that the 1909 death could be yours.

What happened to Catherine I think could be more helpful. Why did the resident officer report the death and not Catherine. The infirmary was probably also the work house so I would not assign too much accuracy to the age or occupation.
thanks
just to be clear it is James John Harvey and not John Harvey as you stated thanks for your help

Peter Goodey
07-07-2009, 2:06 PM
The city infirmary Bromley

That will be the City of London Union Infirmary..

You could check to see if any useful records have survived.

terryharvey2005
07-07-2009, 2:18 PM
That will be the City of London Union Infirmary..

You could check to see if any useful records have survived.

thanks Peter
would that be at London Metropolitan Archives

terry

Raffaele
07-07-2009, 2:24 PM
James John Harvey and not John Harvey

Just one with James not John. He is in Shepton Mallet.

terryharvey2005
07-07-2009, 2:26 PM
Just one with James not John. He is in Shepton Mallet.

ok thanks for looking

terry

Mutley
07-07-2009, 3:03 PM
Have you tried looking to see if there is a James or James John with a father (you have a name from the marriage certificate) and who is a groom in the earlier census?

In 1861 there is a James born 1858 in St. George in East and another in Stepney, to name just two. If they grow up to be a groom then the death certificate you have may belong to them.

I am slightly confused, :confused:
you say he was born in St. George in the East and the 1861 and 1881 census says born in Ireland.

If you think he may have died in WW1 have you looked at the Commonwealth War Graves site?

There is a medal card for a James John Harvey, served with the 17th London Regiment, RI Rifs. Number 7220, 43229. He was discharged on 31.1.1919

terryharvey2005
07-07-2009, 3:47 PM
Have you tried looking to see if there is a James or James John with a father (you have a name from the marriage certificate) and who is a groom in the earlier census?

In 1861 there is a James born 1858 in St. George in East and another in Stepney, to name just two. If they grow up to be a groom then the death certificate you have may belong to them.

I am slightly confused, :confused:
you say he was born in St. George in the East and the 1861 and 1881 census says born in Ireland.

If you think he may have died in WW1 have you looked at the Commonwealth War Graves site?

There is a medal card for a James John Harvey, served with the 17th London Regiment, RI Rifs. Number 7220, 43229. He was discharged on 31.1.1919

I think the Ireland is a mistake I think it is his wife catherine Dee who was born in Ireland. The 1858 birth lists his father as Daniel which was the name of both my father and his father. the mother's maiden name is Ensor. Marriage cert is difficult to read but looks like occupation Carman, but the census of 1901 says dock labourer as does a miltiary record listing him as nect of kin. Both my father and his father worked in the docks which is why I am not sure about the death cert as well as the the age difference.

terry

sue2white
07-07-2009, 7:51 PM
I have found them in 1901
James Harvey
Age: 40
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1861
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Catherine
Gender: Male
Where born: St Georges, London, England

Civil parish: Shadwell
Ecclesiastical parish: St Paul Shadwell
County/Island: London
Country: England

Registration district: Stepney
Sub-registration district: Shadwell
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 56
Household Members: Name Age
James Harvey 40 Dock worker
Catherine Harvey 40
James Harvey 20
Emma Harvey 16
Kate Harvey 12
Tomothy Harvey 7
Mary Harvey 5
Cristopher Harvey 11 months
Dee Tomothy 34 Brother in law
RG13; Piece: 316; Folio: 108; Page: 11.


This census states they were all born St George in the East


Have found Catherine Dee on 1871

Seems she wasn't born in Ireland. Brother Timothy there too
Catherine Dee
Age: 11
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1860
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Timothy
Mother's Name: Catherine
Gender: Female
Where born: St George in The East, Middlesex, England
Civil parish: St George in The East
Ecclesiastical parish: St John The Evangelist in the East
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address:


Disability: View image
Registration district: St George In The East
Sub-registration district: St Mary
ED, institution, or vessel: 13
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 279
Household Members: Name Age
Timothy Dee 50
Catherine Dee 39
Ellen Dee 14
Catherine Dee 11
Daniel Dee 7
Timothy Dee 5
Patrick Dee 2
Source Citation: Class: RG10; Piece: 532; Folio: 26; Page: 46;


I am slightly confused,
you say he was born in St. George in the East and the 1861 and 1881 census says born in Ireland

I am a bit bothered by the Ireland reference too.

Is this James on 1861
Name: James Harvey
Age: 2
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1859
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Daniel
Mother's Name: Hannah
Gender: Male
Where born: London, Middlesex, England Unhelpful

Civil parish: Islington
Ecclesiastical parish: St James
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Registration district: Islington
Sub-registration district: Islington West
ED, institution, or vessel: 55
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 32
Household Members: Name Age
Daniel Harvey 30 ? Carrier Stanford le Hope Essex
Hannah Harvey 26 Dressmaker Radley Berkshire
Ann Harvey 4
James Harvey 2
Daniel Harvey 4 Mo
Hannah Brandham 17
Naomi Brandham 10

Source Citation: Class: RG9; Piece: 134; Folio: 64; Page: 7;

Sue :)

terryharvey2005
08-07-2009, 7:50 AM
thanks, the Dee family are on the 1861 census
RG09 piece 277 folio 48 page 10 giving the parents Timothy and Esther as being born in Ireland. Catherine is age 1 so without being able to find her birth I think I just assumed she was born in Ireland and not James.
anyway I understand we have to go back to move forward, but it is the death of James John Harvey I am looking for. Once I can find this I will be looking into the Dee family Irish or not.

thanks for all your help, just want to find his death


terry

terryharvey2005
08-07-2009, 7:54 AM
[/QUOTE]
Is this James on 1861
Name: James Harvey
Age: 2
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1859
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Daniel
Mother's Name: Hannah
Gender: Male
Where born: London, Middlesex, England Unhelpful

Civil parish: Islington
Ecclesiastical parish: St James
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Registration district: Islington
Sub-registration district: Islington West
ED, institution, or vessel: 55
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 32
Household Members: Name Age
Daniel Harvey 30 ? Carrier Stanford le Hope Essex
Hannah Harvey 26 Dressmaker Radley Berkshire
Ann Harvey 4
James Harvey 2
Daniel Harvey 4 Mo
Hannah Brandham 17
Naomi Brandham 10

Source Citation: Class: RG9; Piece: 134; Folio: 64; Page: 7;



Sue :)[/QUOTE]



the birth cert I have for James is 1858 in st george in the East, born to Emma Harvey(Ensor) and Daniel Harvey (Fishmonger) living at china place London.
I cannot confirm this is the correct birth yet

terry

sue2white
09-07-2009, 7:27 AM
I think the Ireland is a mistake I think it is his wife catherine Dee who was born in Ireland. The 1858 birth lists his father as Daniel which was the name of both my father and his father. the mother's maiden name is Ensor. Marriage cert is difficult to read but looks like occupation Carman, but the census of 1901 says dock labourer as does a miltiary record listing him as nect of kin. Both my father and his father worked in the docks which is why I am not sure about the death cert as well as the the age difference

On the 1861 census, Daniel is a carrier of something. Carman & carrier are essentually the same thing. I suggest if Daniel is a carman on James' marriage certificate, then you have the wrong birth certificate. That is a bit of a change of occupation.
Sue

terryharvey2005
09-07-2009, 7:42 AM
thanks Sue

The marriage of James and Catherine has James as what I think reads Carman although difficult to read and his father Daniel as firh(Maybe Fish) Priter, I have not a clue what it says just trying to make out the letters.
Thanks Sue for your help I am not sure which way I should be going should I leave the death and concentrate on earlier family or will finding his death help to confirm who his father was.

thanks

Terry

terryharvey2005
09-07-2009, 12:06 PM
I have some info if it is of any help.
I have the birth of James Harvey son of James John Harvey and Catherine Dee

born 1881 St george in the east sub district Saint Mary.
Father James Harvey, Dock Laborer, 3 London Terrace

terry

sue2white
09-07-2009, 12:33 PM
will finding his death help to confirm who his father was.

Finding James' death will not confirm who his father was.



The 1858 birth lists his father as Daniel which was the name of both my father and his father. the mother's maiden name is Ensor.

Have you got this certificate? What is Daniel's occupation on this? Or did you find this on the IGI?

Sue

terryharvey2005
09-07-2009, 12:43 PM
Finding James' death will not confirm who his father was.




Have you got this certificate? What is Daniel's occupation on this? Or did you find this on the IGI?

Sue

I was hoping finding the death would confirm his birth date.
The 1858 birth cert gives occupation of father (Daniel) as Fishmonger

sue2white
09-07-2009, 3:40 PM
I was hoping finding the death would confirm his birth date.
The 1858 birth cert gives occupation of father (Daniel) as Fishmonger

It won't do either of these, as many death ages are wrong, as age wasn't that important to many and when asked, they would take a stab in the dark....that is why ages of censuses are so inconsistant.

What you really need to do, is look for his birth entry and send for his certificate.

Sue

terryharvey2005
09-07-2009, 4:02 PM
thanks for all your help

terry

Mutley
09-07-2009, 4:07 PM
Sorry Terry, it does sound as though we are not answering your question about James's death certificate being your James. It is impossible to say Yes or No without building up a large picture of the events leading up to it and beyond.

I have a similar situation, a common name, a workhouse death signed by an officer and a better occupation than that he really had.

It has taken me a long time to follow others with the same name and eliminate their deaths. To follow his family and find out where they were and what they were doing, before and after. A timeline that has taken several years and cost a few bob :).

I am now quite sure because on the 1911 census he was in the workhouse prior to his death. His son came from Canada and took mum back there after the death.

I've tried to look back over your posts to see what happened to Catherine, is she a widow in 1911, does she remarry between 1909 and 1918?

terryharvey2005
09-07-2009, 4:27 PM
Sorry Terry, it does sound as though we are not answering your question about James's death certificate being your James. It is impossible to say Yes or No without building up a large picture of the events leading up to it and beyond.

I have a similar situation, a common name, a workhouse death signed by an officer and a better occupation than that he really had.

It has taken me a long time to follow others with the same name and eliminate their deaths. To follow his family and find out where they were and what they were doing, before and after. A timeline that has taken several years and cost a few bob :).

I am now quite sure because on the 1911 census he was in the workhouse prior to his death. His son came from Canada and took mum back there after the death.

I've tried to look back over your posts to see what happened to Catherine, is she a widow in 1911, does she remarry between 1909 and 1918?

I am more than happy with the replies that have been given, I have batted this around for a few years now without getting an answer. I have nothing on what happened to catherine after 1901. I think the Ireland issue keeps croping up and I need to get an answer on that, but as I understand it Irish records are difficult, I have something in my mass of papers that indicate her family (Dee ) came from Cork so it might be possible she went back.

terry

sue2white
09-07-2009, 4:46 PM
Births Dec 1858 Harvey James John St Geo East 1c 420

This could be his birth entry. It might be worth sending for it.

Sue

terryharvey2005
09-07-2009, 5:07 PM
Births Dec 1858 Harvey James John St Geo East 1c 420

This could be his birth entry. It might be worth sending for it.

Sue

I think that is the one I have Sue

sue2white
09-07-2009, 7:00 PM
Right.

I think we need to check out all the James Harveys and Daniel Harveys on the various censuses to elliminate the wrong ones.

Sue

PS What was Daniel's wifes christain name?

sue2white
09-07-2009, 7:53 PM
Oh my, take a look at this - could he have got his father's name wrong?

1861
James Harvey
Age: 3
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1858
Relation: Son
Father's Name: John
Mother's Name: Emma
Gender: Male
Where born: St Georges E, Middlesex, England

Civil parish: Stepney St Dunstan
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Registration district: Whitechapel
Sub-registration district: Mile End New Town
ED, institution, or vessel: 13
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 49

Household Members: Name Age
John Harry 34 Fishmonger Whitechapel
Emma Harry 27 City Middx
Emma Harry 8
Elizabeth J Harvey 5
James Harvey 3

Class: RG9; Piece: 268; Folio: 150; Page: 9

I cannot find this family on 1871 census.

Sue

sue2white
09-07-2009, 8:49 PM
Scrub that last suggestion!!

I have looked at the 1861 census again, that I wrote on a previous post. I looked VERY hard and I think Daniel's occupation is FISH carrier.
I think he is your man! The enumerator has his wife as Hannah though...Hannah/Emma...similar.

RG9; Piece: 134; Folio: 64; Page: 7;

This same Daniel is on the 1851

Daniel Harvey
Age: 22
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1829
Relation: Servant
Gender: Male
Where born: Stanford Chope, Essex, England

Civil parish: Kelvedon Hatch
County/Island: Essex
Country: England

Registration district: Ongar
Sub-registration district: Bobbingworth
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 69
Household Members: Name Age
Henry Newcombe 49
Newcombe 48
Mary Ann Newcombe 27
Daniel Harvey 22 Farm Lab

Class: HO107; Piece: 1771; Folio: 246; Page: 20

And in 1841 with parents and siblings
Daniel Harvey
Age: 11
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1830
Gender: Male
Where born: Essex, England

Civil parish: Stanford Le Hope
Hundred: Barstable
County/Island: Essex
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation: View image

Registration district: Orsett
Sub-registration district: Orsett
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
James Halsey 60
Ellis Halsey 15
John Prior 25
Sarah Prior 20
John Harvey 65 Ag Lab
Elizabeth Harvey 45
Jemima Harvey 18
Abraham Harvey 13 Ag Lab
John Harvey 11
Daniel Harvey 11
David Harvey 7
Anne Harvey 5
George Bass 20
John Kempster 50
Samuel Holden 50 All born in county

Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece 322; Book: 29;


Sue :D

sue2white
09-07-2009, 9:03 PM
Deaths of James - have you looked at these?

Deaths Sep 1903
Harvey James 46 Islington 1b 135

Deaths Dec 1901
Harvey James 46 Pancras 1b 25

Sue

sue2white
09-07-2009, 9:46 PM
1901 cenusu
Here is James Harvey the Groom, so you do have the wrong death certificate.

James Harvey
Age: 45
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1856
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Jane
Gender: Male
Where born: Totteridge, Hertfordshire, England

Civil parish: St Pancras
Ecclesiastical parish: St John the Evangelist
County/Island: London


Registration district: St Pancras
Sub-registration district: Tottenham Court
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 361
Household Members: Name Age
James Harvey 45
Jane Harvey 42 House Foreman Groom
Rose Harvey 11
Maria Harvey 6
Robert Harvey 1
Arthur H Mapleson 24
Frederick Lambers 30
Walter Bugdale 21
Frederick Lambert 28
John Archer

Class: RG13; Piece: 137; Folio: 103; Page: 49.


but the census of 1901 says dock labourer

On 1901, the James Harvey who is married to Catherine is described as a General Labourer I take it this is your James Harvey??

James Harvey
Age: 45
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1856
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Catherine
Gender: Male
Where born: Whitechapel, London, England

Civil parish: Spitalfields
Ecclesiastical parish: Christchurch
County/Island: London
Country: England

Registration district: Whitechapel
Sub-registration district: Spitalfields
ED, institution, or vessel: 14
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 136
Household Members: Name Age
James Harvey 45
Catherine Harvey 42
James Harvey 11
Ellen Harvey 9
Uley Harvey 5


Class: RG13; Piece: 299; Folio: 36; Page: 25.

I hope this is helping
Sue:)

sue2white
09-07-2009, 10:50 PM
Sorry...I'm really hooked now - From the IGI

Daniel Harvey

Event(s):
Birth: 30 MAY 1830 Stanford Lehope, , Essex, England
Death: 14 SEP 1899
Father: John Harvey
Mother: Elizabeth Eastwood Harvey
Source Information:
Film Number: 1239612
Page Number: 181
Reference number: 4368


Daniel Harvey

Birth: 29 MAY 1830 Stanford Lee Hope, , Essex, England
Marriages:
Spouse: Ann Padmore Gilbert
Source Information:
Film Number: 183398


Daniel Harvey
Birth: 29 MAY 1830 Stanfordleahope, , Essex, England
Spouse: Ellen Woolton
(About 1872 Of Summersley, , Berkshire, England - this info is submitted by LDS member)
Source Information:
Film Number: 183396
Reference number: 12159


Daniel Harvey
Birth: 29 MAY 1830 Stanford Le Hope, Essex, England
Marriages:
Spouse: Hannah Smuin
(Marriage: 21 MAY 1854 <London, London, England> - this bit of info was submitted by LDS member)
Source Information:
Film Number: 183395
Page Number: 389

Was this guy very unlucky with wives? |nopity|

It looks like Hannah was James' mother.

A whole load of Daniels siblings, as found on 1841 are also on the IGI

John Harvey
Birth: 08 APR 1781 Prittlewell, Essex, England
Death: 30 MAY 1843
Marriages:
Spouse: Elizabeth Eastwood
Marriage: <1829> Stanford Le Hope, Essex, England>
This is a submitted entry.

Elizabeth Eastwood Pedigree
Birth: 1798 Stanford,Lehope, , Essex, England
Death: 13 NOV 1841
Spouse: John Harvey
Marriage: <1816> Stanford,Lehope, , Essex, England
This is a submitted entry



Sue

terryharvey2005
10-07-2009, 7:38 AM
Sue many thanks, I am so glad you got hooked.
I will need some time to look at all you have found, my brain will not work as fast as yours.
I am very grateful and I will get back when I have got things clear.
What a great forum!!

thanks again

terry

terryharvey2005
10-07-2009, 8:04 AM
Scrub that last suggestion!!

I have looked at the 1861 census again, that I wrote on a previous post. I looked VERY hard and I think Daniel's occupation is FISH carrier.
I think he is your man! The enumerator has his wife as Hannah though...Hannah/Emma...similar.

RG9; Piece: 134; Folio: 64; Page: 7;

Sue :D

So the birth I have 1858 of James John Harvey by Daniel Harvey and Emma Ensor is correct. I have a marriage of Dan Harvey (Green Grocer)and Emma Ensor in 1849 gives his father as George Harvey not sure if that is correct

sue2white
10-07-2009, 10:05 AM
If Daniel is named on James' marriage and it says he is a fishmonger, then the Fish carrier on the 1861 is likely to be him.

But Daniel's father being George throws a spanner in the works.
Will have to look again.
Sue

terryharvey2005
10-07-2009, 10:35 AM
I am not sure it says Fish Carrier but it could be Fish Porter.
I have posted link to image for you to read, not sure if I have done this right.




http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k113/terryharvey2005/Pic.jpg?t=1247218717

sue2white
10-07-2009, 10:46 AM
On the 1861 census his occupation is fish carrier
Sue

Will not be able to see the photo until I get home. Certain sites are blocked here at work

What is George Harvey's occupation from Dan's marriage? Or is this IGI?

terryharvey2005
10-07-2009, 11:46 AM
again difficult to read but a 50% guess maybe Farmer the F could be a H but if it is I can't say what the rest is.
I have the cert

terry

sue2white
10-07-2009, 12:29 PM
Was Dan a batchelor or widower when he married?
This is really confusing now....just when I thought I had it cracked!!

Sue :confused:

sue2white
10-07-2009, 12:35 PM
This is a weird one

DAN HARVEY
Birth: 25 NOV 1823 Dr Williams Library, London, London, England
Father: GEORGE HARVEY
Mother: HANNAH

I wonder......

Sue

terryharvey2005
10-07-2009, 12:50 PM
Was Dan a batchelor or widower when he married?
This is really confusing now....just when I thought I had it cracked!!

Sue :confused:


His name is Dan on the marriage cert and he was a batchelor and green grocer of 42 looks like Bxxcage Walk (Birdcage Maybe).

if your confused what about me i'm not sure I know what my name is :)

sue2white
10-07-2009, 3:58 PM
So Dan must have been born c1807, born to George, occupation ?

So looks like the Daniel I found on the 1861, is not him, as he can be traced back to Essex and parents John & Elizabeth.

You have got a brickwall. |banghead|

Will have to put my thinking cap on.....and maybe a few others could too???|idea|


Going back to James. I think you need to send for some other death certificates, as I don't believe you have the correct one.

Sue

terryharvey2005
10-07-2009, 4:31 PM
many thanks for all you have done Sue

sue2white
10-07-2009, 5:00 PM
You're welcome!

I'm still thinking though!!

Sue

sue2white
10-07-2009, 6:14 PM
Found the blighter!!
1851 Census

Name: Dan Harvey
Age: 27
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1824 Your 42 was address, not age on marriage cert..oops

Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Emma
Gender: Male
Where born: Middlesex, England

Civil parish: St Mary Whitechapel
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England
Registration district: Whitechapel
Sub-registration district: Whitechapel Church
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 27
Household Members: Name Age
Dan Harvey 27 Greengrocer Middx
Emma Harvey 21 Middx
Dan Harvey 2 Mo Whitechapel
George Harvey 21 Brother Servant Middx

Living Fieldgate Street Whitechapel
Class: HO107; Piece: 1545; Folio: 469; Page: 6

Where is he though in 1861?? I know some pages did not survive.


DAN HARVEY
Birth: 25 NOV 1823 Dr Williams Library, London, London, England
Father: GEORGE HARVEY
Mother: HANNAH

I wonder......

So this certainly looks like him!! |jumphappy

And here's his brother!!
GEORGE HARVEY
Event(s):
Birth: 05 OCT 1829 Dr Williams Library, London, London, England
Parents:
Father: GEORGE HARVEY
Mother: HANNAH

Batch No.: C146227 |biggrin|

And these siblings:

ELIZABETH HARVEY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 12 MAY 1819 Dr Williams Library, London, London, England

HANNAH IRVING HARVEY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 05 OCT 1829 Dr Williams Library, London, London, England

MARY ANN HARVEY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 24 DEC 1826 Dr Williams Library, London, London, England

|cheers|

So your James had a brother Dan too. I wonder what happened to him??

You must just send for some other death certs for James to finish this off!!

Going to make some dinner now and give my brain a rest.

Sue

Mutley
10-07-2009, 6:39 PM
Well done Sue, sorry I left you to it, others were taking up my time.
You deserve full marks for this, fantastic job. :)

sue2white
10-07-2009, 6:42 PM
DAN ENSOR HARVEY

Birth: 11 FEB 1851
Christening: 30 MAR 1851 St Mary Whitechapel, Stepney, London, England
Parents:
Father: DAN HARVEY
Mother: EMMA

Batch no:C025541

Yes! |angel|

sue2white
10-07-2009, 7:18 PM
Sorry I have just deleted what I wrote as I had completely messed up!!

Thought I had it wrong, but I have re-read and it seems right.
Sue

terryharvey2005
11-07-2009, 4:41 PM
Sue many thanks for all you have done.
I will get the certs over the coming weeks and will post any information I get.
once again thanks for all your hard work.

terry|jumphappy

terryharvey2005
24-07-2009, 12:18 PM
Deaths of James - have you looked at these?

Deaths Sep 1903
Harvey James 46 Islington 1b 135

Deaths Dec 1901
Harvey James 46 Pancras 1b 25

Sue
Have both of these death certs now
1901 is for a Horse Foreman of southampton st, Fiztroy Sq
1903 is for a Railway Porter of Henry Street, Clerkenwell.

so it is not either of them

terry

sue2white
24-07-2009, 1:47 PM
Have both of these death certs now
1901 is for a Horse Foreman of southampton st, Fiztroy Sq
1903 is for a Railway Porter of Henry Street, Clerkenwell.

so it is not either of them

terry

So the first one is another Groom! What co-incidence is that?

Going back to your first post:


I have a death cert for James John Harvey in 1909 gives age as 44, but informant is resident officer The city infirmary Bromley (which I assume is Bromley by Bow as the district is Poplar). Not convinced that it is him as occupation is a domestic groom and I know that he was a dock laborer

The second one: Railway porter...perhaps he needs to be found on the 1901 census, just to make sure.

Flip! Blow and a whole load of naughty words!!

Sue http://www.thescubasite.com/smile/mad/mad0086.gif (http://www.thescubasite.com/Scuba-Diving-in-the-UK/scuba-diving-in-the-uk)

terryharvey2005
24-07-2009, 2:45 PM
if anyone has ability to search British Army WWI Service Records, 1914-1920 on Axxxxtry
there is a James John Harvey born around 1858 lived in London which I would like to check. If it is him it may narrow things down. Not sure about the age on this it would make him over 55 and in the Army( is that possible)

thanks Terry

Mutley
24-07-2009, 4:27 PM
Terry, I cannot see a James John b. 1858 on my screen. Could you see Regiment and /or number?

Page 1
James Harvey, Born Stepney, London. Number 36534
previously served 107 Pt Batt.
Are you willing to serve in the York and Lanaster Reg YES
Page 2 are general conditions, his signature as J Harvey and that he was Posted.

The writing is not good
Page 3 and 4
Statement as to Disability
??? & Lanc Regt
Reg No. 36594. Pte John Harvey 24 Medland St, Ratcliffe St. age 30, joined 6/7/1915 at Bow (The 9 could be a 3 but I don't think so)
Page 5 says Attestation.
John Harvey I think the address is the same, I can read the Stepney. It say 17th Batt London

I cannot see next of kin or occupation and it almost looks like the records of two different men.

There is also a James age 30 of 201 Ower Road, Rotherhithe
IL Coy Northants Regiment No. 56302
Do you want me to look at that one?

Mutley
24-07-2009, 4:37 PM
There is a medal card for a James John Harvey that might tie in with the above but the regiment numbers are not the same.

17th London R. 7220 Pte. Corps RL Rifs
Reg No 43229. Rank RFM. Enlisted 25/5/14 Discharged 31/1/19

Cause of Discharge
Para 3921XV17KA W.O.L. 6013/19.12.18 W
Victory Medal Roll = B/104 B19 Page = 3044
British do do
Action Taken List 13/1138

Mutley
24-07-2009, 4:55 PM
There is also a James age 30 of 201 Ower Road, Rotherhithe
IL Coy Northants Regiment No. 56302
Do you want me to look at that one?

I looked anyway, he was a barman/cellarman and his wife was called Beatrice. They lived at Lower Road, Rotherhithe. :(

terryharvey2005
24-07-2009, 5:24 PM
Terry, I cannot see a James John b. 1858 on my screen. Could you see Regiment and /or number?

Page 1
James Harvey, Born Stepney, London. Number 36534
previously served 107 Pt Batt.
Are you willing to serve in the York and Lanaster Reg YES
Page 2 are general conditions, his signature as J Harvey and that he was Posted.

The writing is not good
Page 3 and 4
Statement as to Disability
??? & Lanc Regt
Reg No. 36594. Pte John Harvey 24 Medland St, Ratcliffe St. age 30, joined 6/7/1915 at Bow (The 9 could be a 3 but I don't think so)
Page 5 says Attestation.
John Harvey I think the address is the same, I can read the Stepney. It say 17th Batt London

I cannot see next of kin or occupation and it almost looks like the records of two different men.

There is also a James age 30 of 201 Ower Road, Rotherhithe
IL Coy Northants Regiment No. 56302
Do you want me to look at that one?

Thanks Mutley
I just put in as much as I know (Name, London, Birth within 5 years and the top Hit was James Harvey more in hope than anything. I looked because I found a James Harvey on the commonwealth war graves site who was in the Royal Fusilies and I know that his son was in that regiment. Just Hoping really
Thanks again

sue2white
24-07-2009, 6:08 PM
1901
Found the horse foreman
RG13; Piece: 137; Folio: 103; Page: 49.

Cannot find the railway porter. Am losing the will to live!

Have also scoured the 1911 census for any of the family, but without looking at the actual trabscriptions, can only find a Christopher who could be James' son.

Sue http://www.thescubasite.com/smile/confused/confused0024.gif (http://www.thescubasite.com/Scuba-Diving-in-Fiji/scuba-diving-in-fiji)

terryharvey2005
24-07-2009, 7:24 PM
1901
Found the horse foreman
RG13; Piece: 137; Folio: 103; Page: 49.

Cannot find the railway porter. Am losing the will to live!

Have also scoured the 1911 census for any of the family, but without looking at the actual trabscriptions, can only find a Christopher who could be James' son.

Sue http://www.thescubasite.com/smile/confused/confused0024.gif (http://www.thescubasite.com/Scuba-Diving-in-Fiji/scuba-diving-in-fiji)

Hi Sue

I have birth certificate for Christopher born 1900 Shadwell and Wapping
10 Sage St Shadwell

terryharvey2005
24-07-2009, 7:26 PM
I think I am just going to have to get a whole bunch of death certificates for James and hope that I strike lucky.

terry

Mutley
24-07-2009, 10:23 PM
You can get the GRO to check certain criteria but I am not sure if you can check for an occupation which seems to be what you really want for confirming his death.

Have you read through the GRO Help (http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Governmentcitizensandrights/Registeringlifeevents/Familyhistoryandresearch/Birthmarriageanddeathcertificates/DG_175628)
Maybe it is worth a phone call to them, you are in the UK, so not as expensive as phoning from abroad and you may find a very nice person that would take pity on you. [fingers crossed smiley]

terryharvey2005
05-08-2009, 1:17 PM
I now have a marriage cert for Emma Harvey daughter of James and Catherine.
Date of Marriage 1903 St George in the east
she marries Alexander Fells a fish porter of 72 William Street, she is of the same address. As usaul I can't quite read her fathers first name it could be James but I am not sure although it does say he is deceased which would mean if it is him I could narrow his death down to between 1901 and 1903

terry

dawn/karen
05-08-2009, 4:03 PM
i would take the deceased bit with a pinch of salt on marriage certs as going by my experience they usualy arent, so i had a look for you and i found one

Deaths Mar 1909

James John HARVEY aged 44 Poplar 1c 382

terryharvey2005
05-08-2009, 4:09 PM
i would take the deceased bit with a pinch of salt on marriage certs as going by my experience they usualy arent, so i had a look for you and i found one

Deaths Mar 1909

James John HARVEY aged 44 Poplar 1c 382

thanks but tried that one and a few others that are in previous posts on this message
thanks again

terry

ClaphamCommoner
31-10-2012, 6:06 PM
So the birth I have 1858 of James John Harvey by Daniel Harvey and Emma Ensor is correct. I have a marriage of Dan Harvey (Green Grocer)and Emma Ensor in 1849 gives his father as George Harvey not sure if that is correct

I wonder if I can help at all? The following is information passed down to me from my father many years ago, not researched on the Internet, so I reckon it is pretty reliable:

My great-grandmother Elizabeth Jane Harvey was born on 26 February 1856. So your James Harvey born in 1858 was born at the right time to have been her brother. I note that Sue (on post 27) has an Elizabeth J Harvey aged five who is two years older than James, at age three, on the 1861 Census. My great-grandmother Elizabeth Jane was indeed five at the time of the 1861 Census.

My great-grandmother Elizabeth Jane Harvey's parents were Daniel Harvey, who was educated at Christ's Hospital (the Bluecoat School) and Emma Ensor, who was born 20 December 1830. Daniel Harvey and Emma Ensor were married on 24 September 1849* at St Peter's, Bethnal Green. My father understood Daniel Harvey to have been a "shopkeeper", which would tally with the versions that have him as a greengrocer or fishmonger.

However, according to Sue's post 27, the 1861 Census has Emma "Harry" / Harvey as being aged 27, whereas my great-great-grandmother Emma Harvey would have been 31 at the time of the 1861 Census.

My great-great-grandfather Daniel Harvey's father was George Harvey, a farmer who lived in Whitechapel.*

Emma Endsor's parents were James John Endsor, born 7 October 1810, and Elizabeth Haylock. James and Elizabeth were married at St Mary Woolnoth Church in the City of London on 24 August 1829.

Emma's grandparents were Thomas and Sarah Endsor, born about 1790, who lived at St Mary Axe in the City (where the Gherkin is now!)

However, the one thing that doesn't tally is that this Daniel Harvey (husband of Emma, father of my great-grandmother Elizabeth and quite likely the father of your James Harvey) was born on 11 February 1831 - not the dates you give. However, given the fact that he was only 18 and Emma 19 when they married, so it may have been a shotgun wedding, it may be that he didn't give his true age on all documents!

Terry, the birth certificate you have for your James says he was born at St George in the East. There is a further family connection with this splendid Hawksmoor church. My great-grandmother Jane Elizabeth Harvey (your James' possible sister) was married at St George in the East. Sadly, the fellow she married, a master stevedore on the East India Dock turned out to be a rogue. It was said that he was "the best docker on the London docks -- when he was sober", but unfortunately that wasn't very often, and he died in the Rowton House workhouse in Fieldgate Street, Whitechapel.

* So, Terry, everything you say in your post 33 ("So the birth I have 1858 of James John Harvey by Daniel Harvey and Emma Ensor is correct. I have a marriage of Dan Harvey (Green Grocer) and Emma Ensor in 1849 gives his father as George Harvey not sure if that is correct") tallies with what I know to be true of my family. The marriage of Daniel Harvey and Emma Ensor in 1849, the father being George Harvey who is a farmer, and the fact that Daniel has a sister Elizabeth J(ane) who is two years older than him.

I would be interested to know more about this James Harvey of yours (and where was China Place?), as he has not so far shown up on our family tree. But his birthdate of 1858 and parents Daniel Harvey and Emma Ensor certainly sound like he was my great-grandmother Jane's brother. Also, Jane's grandfather was called James John Ensor, which suggests the name may have been passed down to her brother, your James John Harvey! Incidentally, I have two very interesting photographs of Jane Harvey, one from a newspaper cutting, taken around 1919.

Mutley
31-10-2012, 9:49 PM
Welcome to the forum ClaphamCommoner

Terry has not been on line for a while now but he is still a member.
If you click his user name and send him a private message to visit this thread he should receive notification of it.

Good Luck

mtw63
01-11-2012, 7:48 PM
Hi,

James John Harvey was my Gt Gt Grandfather with my family line descending from his daughter Emma Harvey. I know very little of the Harvey side of my family (what I do know is on my family tree on Ancestry - Wren Family Tree).

It is interesting to read your information in the post above.

Regards
Martin

ClaphamCommoner
02-11-2012, 1:21 AM
Image didn't load correctly.

Mutley
02-11-2012, 1:45 AM
You need to upload an image to a site like photobucket and then download it to Brit Gen.
Have a read of these threads.
http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/showthread.php/75288-Photobucket?highlight=photobucket