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babygirl101
17-04-2009, 6:37 AM
Yesterday I received a marriage certificate for Mary Smith and John Bower. They were married 26th Aug 1863 at Hayton, Notts. From the searches I had done prior to this I fully expected to see Mary's father as Henry Smith. When the certificate arrived dad's name was Richard, a chairmender, not what I was expecting to see at all, to be honest I was just looking for confirmation of what I had already found!

Mary, had given Blidworth/Mansfield, Notts, as her PoB on the census returns from her marriage up to her death, post 1911, but I can't find any trace of her prior to marriage, except for an entry which gives a Mary d/o Henry and Ann, again it gave this Mary as born in Blidworth, so I thought I'd got the right one???

Has anyone come across a Richard about 1820ish, anywhere, with a daughtr Mary born Blidworth 1844?

I was going to try to get a birth certificate for her ... but needle in haystack springs to mind, there are too many to even guess which one could be her around that time in that area.

Any suggestion pleeeease, anyone, as to how to follow this one up

Many thanks as always

BG |help|

JoanneM
17-04-2009, 8:59 AM
They always manage to throw a curve ball at you, don't they? :)

I only know of one Richard Smith of about that period, and he is a chair mender, but I don't think he's yours. :confused:

Skillington 3rd Aug 1827 Matilda Smith d/o Richard and Ann of Skillington chair mender

(Matilda married Hiram Price in 1846 and was a witness at the marriage of Wisdom Smith and Amy Haywood in Bourne in 1853).

Then another daughter of Richard and Ann (because Matilda is boarding with her family in later census returns and listed as sister, and also because Richard is named as her father on her marriage) is Mary Ann born c.1838 in Lincolnshire.

Roughly about the same age to be your Mary but she marries Reuben Smith in 1858 in Gosberton and appears with him on subsequent census returns.

(Reuben Smith is the son of Ezechiel Tennant Smith born c.1798 North Aston Oxfordshire, and Bechina/Beechanna who I suspect is a Booth).

Does kind of beg the question, are there two gypsy Richard Smiths in the area at the time, or are both Mary's daughters of his? With all the name changes and multiple wives I suppose it's possible.

Jo. :)

JoanneM
17-04-2009, 11:43 AM
On the 1871 census entry for Mary and John Bower, if you go back a page there is a Richard Smith of an age (just) to be Mary's father.

Richard Smith head mar 42 hawker and pedlar Osberton Leics
Mary wife mar 42 hawker Normanton Notts
Henry son unm 22 hawker Sheffield
Joseph son 15 hawker Mansfield

Son Henry seems to be in Nottingham in 1881 (RG11; Piece: 3377; Folio: 12; Page: 17) and at Spital Hill in Clarborough in 1891 (RG12; Piece: 2639; Folio 46; Page 29). He has a wife, Ann, born c.1855'ish in Newark.

There is an interesting marriage at Newark Jun qtr 1874 where on the same page is a Henry Smith and an Ann Beard.

I had a look for an Ann Beard on earlier census returns and couldn't find her, but remembered a previous convo.

John Bowers father married secondly Sarah Beard/er (and Matilda Price d/o Richard Smith was a witness at that wedding). Sarah and John had a daughter Ann, baptised Dec 1854 in Newark. We hadn't found out what happened to her. You don't suppose she married as a Beard, do you? What would that make it, she married her half-brothers, brother-in-law?

Also on the 1871 they are with a Hogg and an Elliott family.

Jo. :)

babygirl101
17-04-2009, 8:57 PM
Well done Jo, I think you're quite right, it definitely looks like the right Richard, I can't work out where he was from though, apart from Leic, it's not clear on the actual census, neither are their DoB's. I'll try to find them on the other census returns now - wish me luck!!

You're right about Matilda Price being at John's father, John's wedding to Sarah Bearder I have their marriage cert. Matilda was however, the d/o Richard Price not Smith. As for Ann's wedding to Henry Smith OMG, how very confusing, it's too late in the day for me to try and figure that possibility out, it's almost not an option I want to consider lol, so I'll look at it tomorrow.

Once again thanks for all your help as usual and I'll let you know tomorrow how that one pans out.

BG :)

JoanneM
17-04-2009, 10:10 PM
Well done Jo, I think you're quite right, it definitely looks like the right Richard, I can't work out where he was from though, apart from Leic, it's not clear on the actual census, neither are their DoB's. I'll try to find them on the other census returns now - wish me luck!!

I rather think it'll be like looking for the proverbial needle in a haystack. He could be right in saying he was born Leics, but Osberton is in Notts, and there is also Gosberton in Lincs, so that's three counties!


Matilda was however, the d/o Richard Price not Smith.

Or could be d/o Richard Smith who married Hiram Price. She does seem to have been a bit of a serial wedding witnesser.

Joseph Smith is, I think, close by his brother Henry in 1881, on the next page of the census. The same Joseph is in Clarborough in 1891. Both brothers go on to have a daughter named Lydia, so I can't help but think that the widowed Lydia Elliott on the 1871 is important. There's a Harriet bapt at the right time, but wrong place to a Thomas and Lydia Elliott. :confused:

Jo. :)

babygirl101
18-04-2009, 8:00 AM
Jo, Brilliant, yes, it's the right children and both brothers were living near their sister Mary w/o John Bower. As for Richard, as you say it could be Leic, but given that the family appeared around Retford I suspect Osberton's the most likely.

So far I've followed Joseph who married Mary Ann through to 1901 when Jo was a widow. Mary died 1896, having produced 13 children, one every year of her adult life!! |sad1|

The only thing that looks to be a problem, is if, Mary's age was correct her first child, Mary Ann, b 1874, then mum was only 14/15 when the child was born, not impossible, but concerning and I haven't found a baptism on Notts FH records for her.

I haven't definitely found a marriage for Joseph, but the most likely one seems to be to a Mary Ann Gregory, Sept 1878, Mansfield, although there's also another one that 1/4 to Mary Ann Metcalf, Newark. I'd need the certificates I think to check this out.

I'll carry on now looking at Henrys family and see where that leads, as you say they were in Clarborough in 1891, but I haven't found them in 1901, yet.

Many thanks

BG :)

babygirl101
18-04-2009, 9:07 AM
I have a sneaking suspicion that Joseph did marry Mary Ann Gregory (1.7.1878, Mansfield) as the family seems to already have connections to the Gregory family.

John Bower & Mary Smith's daughter Ann Bower (1867) married an Edward Gregory (1866, Hawker), 10 Jul 1888. His father was a chairmender from Sutton in Ashfield.

I feel yet another certificate order coming on, eeeek!!!.

Onwards and upwards (or around in circles)

BG :)

babygirl101
18-04-2009, 10:11 AM
Well that's done it - I've order certs for both of Marys brothers - Henry and Joseph, this should be enlightening!!

BG :)

JoanneM
18-04-2009, 1:20 PM
I'll carry on now looking at Henrys family and see where that leads, as you say they were in Clarborough in 1891, but I haven't found them in 1901, yet.

There's a lot of the baptisms on freereg. One was for James Percy Smith bapt. 1894 in Retford - searching for him I found the family in 1901, at Moorgate, Retford. Henry has died as Anne is a widow.

RG13; Piece: 3119; Folio: 8; Page: 7

One 14th March 1888 Henry and Ann baptised a daughter, Amy, at Retford, and on the same day Joseph and Anna Wiltshire of Moorgate, hawker, bapt a daughter, Mary Ann (in case there is a connection between those two families). Haven't found Joseph and Anna elsewhere yet, though.

Jo. :)

babygirl101
18-04-2009, 1:59 PM
Thanks once again, Jo for that reference, I've now found them all, plus births/baptisms for all Henry's children.

Going back to Richard, still no luck finding him though, but that age on the 1871 census is so unclear he could have been born anytime from 1800 to 1823 and as you say in any of 3 counties. Certainly the idea of Gosberton Lincs looks favourite, given that Matilda was born there and that connects the Smith, Bowers and Prices yet again. I'm wondering if just maybe Matilda could have been Richards sister if he was born c1823 it would have been quite feasible. It would make sense if both Richard and Matilda were children of Richard & Ann to have named their eldest son after his father but I can't prove it yet so it remains another mystery.

As for the Elliotts, I been looking at various marriage certificates I have, and there's an Abigail and Henry Elliott who were witnesses at Lydia Smith and Hawthorns marriage in 1888.

My head is well and truly spinning lol

BG :confused:

babygirl101
18-04-2009, 5:18 PM
I think I may have found him, if his DoB was about right in 1871, he was born in Gosberton Lincs, s/o Richard Smith and Eleanor Holland, bap 15.2.1802. Not sure where that's leading me as yet as I don't know much about the Hollands!!

BG :)

JoanneM
19-04-2009, 11:22 AM
That does look quite promising. :) I don't know much about the Hollands, either.

The entries on the IGI are member submitted - looks like the baptisms for that period for Gosberton aren't on there, and neither are they on freereg yet. I'm going to the Archives in Lincoln in a couple of days time, so will check this entry out and let you know what it says.

Jo. :)

babygirl101
19-04-2009, 9:09 PM
That's brilliant, thank you so much Jo ... fingers crossed, we may have progress.

BG :D

JoanneM
21-04-2009, 4:37 PM
I think I may have found him, if his DoB was about right in 1871, he was born in Gosberton Lincs, s/o Richard Smith and Eleanor Holland, bap 15.2.1802.

Hi BG,

The actual baptism record doesn't mention the mothers maiden name, and nor does it state that they are travellers of any kind, or give an occupation.

From the baptism register:

15 Mar 1802 Richard son of Richd. and Eleanor Smith

I had a scan of the other years on the fiche (a couple of years either side) to see if I could spot Richard and Eleanor again, and couldn't see them anywhere, but the quality wasn't good and it is possible I've missed them.

Jo. :)

babygirl101
21-04-2009, 6:15 PM
Jo

Thank you so much for taking the time to check for me. I'm not sure where that leaves me with Richard, quite probably at a dead end, for now at least. I knew I was clutching at straws with this one to be honest, ah well that's the way it goes sometimes isn't it.

Onwards and upwards, I'll move on to someone else for now.

BG :)

babygirl101
24-04-2009, 8:27 PM
On the 1871 census entry for Mary and John Bower, if you go back a page there is a Richard Smith of an age (just) to be Mary's father.

Richard Smith head mar 42 hawker and pedlar Osberton Leics
Mary wife mar 42 hawker Normanton Notts
Henry son unm 22 hawker Sheffield
Joseph son 15 hawker Mansfield

Son Henry seems to be in Nottingham in 1881 (RG11; Piece: 3377; Folio: 12; Page: 17) and at Spital Hill in Clarborough in 1891 (RG12; Piece: 2639; Folio 46; Page 29). He has a wife, Ann, born c.1855'ish in Newark.

There is an interesting marriage at Newark Jun qtr 1874 where on the same page is a Henry Smith and an Ann Beard.

I had a look for an Ann Beard on earlier census returns and couldn't find her, but remembered a previous convo.

John Bowers father married secondly Sarah Beard/er (and Matilda Price d/o Richard Smith was a witness at that wedding). Sarah and John had a daughter Ann, baptised Dec 1854 in Newark. We hadn't found out what happened to her. You don't suppose she married as a Beard, do you? What would that make it, she married her half-brothers, brother-in-law?

Also on the 1871 they are with a Hogg and an Elliott family.

Jo. :)

Having just received the marriage certificate for Henry Smith to Ann Beard they married at the parish church on 20th April 1874. Ann's father given as John Beard, potter (same occupation as John Bower senior!!). Henry Smiths father given as Richard Smith, potter, rather than chair mender which is what he appeared as in 1871 when he was travelling with Mary Smith and John Bower junior. The marriage was witnessed by Hiram Price and his wife Mary Ann Price.

Iíve looked for Ann Beard in 1871 and thereís no trace of her with her father John. It looks very much as if youíre right Jo and she was actually the d/o John Bower & his 2nd wife Sarah. In which case she was actually John Bower juniorís half sister. John Bower junior then married Maryís brother Henry.

Joseph Smithís marriage certificate also arrived. He married Mary Ann Gregory whose father was Edward Gregory, a chair mender from Leicestershire. The copy isnít very clear but the witnesses appear to Thomas Barlow and Emma ?Cooper?.

Iíve found the family in 1871 and have then realised that Mary Ann Gregoryís brother Edward also married into the Bower family, he married Ann Bower who was the d/o John Bower and Mary Smith (the oneís who were with Richard Smith in 1871). Talk about keeping it in the family Ö well, I think thatís about right unless anyone can unravel it more for me, as Iím totally confused by it. I think itís all legal Ö well just about.

As to whether any of the Smiths were Romanys I'm no further forward, but they were definitely travellers of some sort, I rather suspect if I dig too deeply on this one it will end in disaster, so I think it's perhaps left alone lol.

Many thanks for all your help.


BG:confused:

JoanneM
25-04-2009, 8:35 AM
Goodness, I think I'm going to have to have another coffee and wake up properly before I try to get my head round that information. :D

Jo. :)

babygirl101
25-04-2009, 4:35 PM
Lol, Jo. I think it'll take more than a cup of coffee to untangle this lot.

BG :)

JoanneM
27-04-2009, 2:22 PM
Couldn't resist having a look at the Gregory family you mentioned, and saw that son Henry appeared to marry a Letty/Letitia/Lettice Wiltshire. This in turn led me to look at the Wiltshire/Wilsher families, and I think I have found out that Richard Smiths wife, Mary, was a Wiltshire.

I misread the 1871 census in regards to their ages. On looking again, their ages seem to be 72 and 62, which puts Mary's birth at c.1809.

Now the age is slightly out, but a Joseph and Lydia Wilsher had a daughter Mary Ann baptised at Normanton on Trent 15th Sep 1816. Then there is a baptism on freereg for Lydia d/o Joseph and Lydia Wiltshire of Saint Ann's St., tin man, Nottingham St. Mary, 22nd Jan 1837. This Lydia would fit agewise with the widowed Lydia Elliott who is with Richard and Mary on the 1871 census and make her sister to Mary.

Also there is a baptism at Saxilby in 1821 of Thomas s/o Joseph and Liddy Wiltsher and 1813 at Swineshead, Lincs, of Joseph s/o Joseph and Lydia Wilshaw. Joseph marries a Sarah and is in and around Newark and manages to appear on the 1861 census twice, at both Newark and New Sleaford Lincs. :confused:

Jo. :)

babygirl101
28-04-2009, 7:50 PM
Hmmm, interesting idea, but just to throw a spanner in the works I've found another possible match for Mary & Richard in 1851:- Piece 2341, Folio 77, page 8. It gives Richard quite nicely as a chair maker and gives them a daughter Mary, about the right age to be the one who marries John Bower. It also gives a sibling for Mary - Lydia. I've checked on the Notts records and there was a Lydia baptsied 15 Jan 1843, d/o Richard and Mary, chair mender.

I thought she might be the Lydia Elliott on the 1871 census but the dates won't add up for it to be her, unless she had her eldest child when she was 15, which is quite feasible.

I've looked on IGI for Richard and there is one baptised in Coleorton s/o John & Lydia which looks more likely, although he gives Loughborough on the census return (not too far away though, about 10 miles), given that in 1871 he gave his PoB as Cobberton which could have misheard/spelt. The one I've found was baptised 30.12.1814 though and he said 1799 on the 1871 census. However, there is a Lydia with the family in 1851 who could well be his mother for a guess.

I'm even more confused now than before. :confused:

BG

JoanneM
28-04-2009, 8:09 PM
That does throw a spanner in the works. Just when I thought I had it sorted. :D

I'd tried every way to find them on another census, but hadn't managed to.

They're in Sheffield in 1851, and son Henry who marries Ann Bowers/Beard is aged 22 in 1871 and born in Sheffield. Now if his age was a couple of years out...........

It certainly does look like them, doesn't it?

Jo. :)

babygirl101
30-04-2009, 3:26 PM
Hmm, a very big spanner I reckon. It does look like him, but the age is very confusing, given how far out it looks. I'll have to do some more digging on this one, but I haven't found any other census info for any of the family. I was rather hoping 1861 would show something up, but no such luck, as yet.

BG :)

aepenney
19-06-2009, 7:02 PM
Edward Gregory who married Annie Bower was the brother of my gr grandfather Robert Gregory so I have lots of information on the Gregory's.
Edward's older brother Henry William lived in a tent in a gypsy camp in Worksop, Notts on the 1901 census at Sandhills and was a hawker. Robert was a chair bottomer as was their father Edward who was born in Leicestershire in 1832. He married Elizabeth Whitworth from Wellow in Notts in 1856 and his father Edward was a potter according to their marriage certificate.
Henry Williams eldest son Frederick born about 1875 married Mary Wiltshire in 1899 so there was certainly a lot of inter marrying of families.
Two of Roberts sisters Charlotte and Elizabeth married two Simpson brothers
and my grandmother who was incidentally a Smith, though from a Staffordshire family, married Robert's son Robert and her sister Minnie his brother Edward.

Don't know if this helps

Alison |wave|

babygirl101
04-07-2009, 6:40 AM
Hi Alison

Yes this does help. I have managed to get most of this information from the census returns and the Notts FHS records. There certainly appear to have been strong conections between the Smith, Gregory's and Wilshers. I didn't know anything about Roberts sisters - Charlotte & Elizabeth so I'll have a look at them as I also have some Simpsons in the family too. I'd love to know what other information you have about the Smiths from Staffordshire as I suspect that will make yet another connection with some of the Smiths I have from Staffordshire.

BG :)