Ted Empson from Norwich?

[normanova]

I ll try to make this message as short as possible...
I bought an old album in Canada, Ontario in 1992 with photos of a family from England. Probably it used to belong to a imigrant family.
There are no names but most of the photos seems to come from Manchester and Liverpool.
There is a photo of an old tumb(?) stone saying "In Loving memory of Harold, son of Alfred and Mary Jane Hall, who died november 1 (?) st 1884 aged seven months.
It might be a member of this "albums family", but I dont know.

Another phot is of "Cheadle St Mary´s" Church, wich I have managed to find on the net.
But can I ask the Church if the have a stone whit that inscription? I dont want to be disrespectful.

And last one phot has the name "Ted Empson" grand Mas Uncle written on it.
Taken in Norwich. But I havent found anything about it. Maybe I dont look at the right places. But there seems to be no Ted EMpson ore Empson at all in Norwich.

If any one any where have a clue ore a tips how to go about I would be most greateful.

Respectfully Normanova

[Pam Downes]

Hi Normanova,

The good news is that you've posted this message on the correct forum. :)
Firstly i have contacts within Cheshire FHS (Cheadle's in Cheshire) so can make a few enquiries about the photo of the tombstone. Probably not Cheadle though as FreeBMD has the death of a Harold Hall, 0 years in the Manchester registration district in December 1884.

And can you tell me where exactly you've looked for Ted Empson please? And for what time scale? Empson from Norfolk is my main name so all references are pounced on and avidly devoured. And I may be able to find who he was. Does the style of dress in the photo give any clue as to when it was taken e.g. 1900, 1950?

Pam Downes

[normanova]

I am speechless, someone who knows something! I am so happy!
So I dont really know where to start :-)

Honestly I cant really remember where I have search for the Empson name, as I have been looking around the net back and forth for a coupl of years. But I guess I have been at the wrong places, it aint easy as I dont know where to search. This site I just hit by pure luck.

The portrait of "uncle Ted Empson granmas brother" is taken by a photographer in Norwich "City Portrait Rooms, John Huggins, Davey Place".

And the photo of the tomb stone is taken by is from Manchester so U have acctually then found it origin. Which church area is it placed at?

I aslo have a photo of 3 young ladies (in theire 20 ies?) whoo seems to be dressed up in "national dresses?" could be turkish? hungarian ore something like that. It maybe that the family might have roths from another country, just a guess tough.(Photo taken in Jackson Bros, Jumbo Chaderton.

And there is a photo taken of an woman in her 60 ies maybe and the name might be Lissie Gent? It is really har to read the letters. Photo taken in Manchester.

The style of the dresse seems to be 1890 to 1990 maybe a bit earlier.

I hope I got U right as I dont really get all the words U use, but I ll get a dictionary to look em all up later.

Whit respect Normanova

[Geoffers]

And last one phot has the name "Ted Empson" grand Mas Uncle written on it. Taken in Norwich.
Assuming all teh photos are from roughly the same period, does the 'Ted' Empson you mention look old enough to be this chap from the 1881 census?


RG11/1949 f92 p26
Chapel Street, Heigham
Edward EMPSON, hd, widower, 66, shoe maker, bn Norwich

Geoffers

[normanova]

Hi!

The photo I have looks like a man in his 20-30 ies? He has dark thick hair and a beard "like a captain" :-)
Not that he is a captain but I dont know propper word for it, sry.
What does the "RG 11/1949 f92 p26" mean?
Is it that he past in 1949?

So the Ted U are talking about was a shoemaker?

I am just so fasinateed by the history behind all this photos. An old album eningd up in Ontario, Canada in a small village. (Do I ever blame myself for not writting down the name of the village where I bought the album!!!)
Now itis in a small town in the northern parts of Sweden.

I do remember that it was a shop ore a small store whit many many things from imigrants, smoke pipes, rocking chairs, photos etc etc. Like going in to a museum.


Respectfuly Normanova

[Geoffers]

The photo I have looks like a man in his 20-30 ies?Ah, right, I'll have to search again

What does the "RG 11/1949 f92 p26" mean?
Is it that he past in 1949?My apologies, I should have explained. This is the reference number which is used to locate entries within British census returns.

The start of the reference - RG11 indicates that this is from the 1881 census. (This is the 'class' number).

The census for the country is split into small districts or areas, each is numbered this area is numbered 1949 (this is called the 'piece')

When the census returns for a district are recorded in a book, every folio (every two pages) are given a number - this is the f92 - and every page is numbered - p26. I can explain the reason for this, but it might be more detail than you want.

Geoffers

[uksearch]

Do you know anything about Albert & Mary Hall? I have found a couple who were living in Manchester in 1881 & 1891 and in Stretford in 1901.He was a publican born in Castleton,Derbyshire.The IGI has a baptism for Harold HALL 15th May 1884 Manchester.It does not say which church, so If it is not Man Cath,St John's Deansgate or St Mary's Parsonage it might be hard to find.Part of the year I live in Cheadle and am very familar with the area.

UK

Census refs
RG 11 3992 folio 31
RG 12 3240 folio 127
RG 13 3665 folio 5

[normanova]

No I am so sorry but I dont know anything about the Hall couple, it is one of teh 3 names that I have. But Castleton Derbyshire sounds familiar so I shall have a look at my notes and come back and tell wheter any photos are from there. It may very well be that this family have realtives ore roths in that area.

This census thing is it a record that I can use ore must i registrer and pay a fe and so? Not that I mind! I am just not such a "tecgnihal person" :-)
But I ll do my very best.

Respectfuly
A sunny but snowy Sweden

[uksearch]

I managed to find the baptism of Harold HALL at Manchester Cathedral.It confirms that his parents were Alfred & Mary Jane Hall.He was a publican and they were living in Manchester.Harold was born 9th April 1884.
Here at MCL the PRs for Cheadle St Marys are on microfilm.Baptisms 1558 - 1880,Burials 1558 - 1911 and Marriages 1558 - 1911.Later events will either still be at the Church or at Stockport CL plus the usual FHCs.

Normanova you see the 1881 Census for free at www.familysearch.org

The 1891 & 1901 are also online but these are pay per view sites.I will post the Census details a little later.


UK

[uksearch]

RG 13 3240 FOLIO 127
100 Lowr Miller St,Manchester
"Crown & Shuttle"
Alfred HALL..Head..Married..38..Publican..Derbys,Castleto n
Mary J..Wife..Married..36..Manchester
Florence..Dau..Single..14..Scholar..Manchester
Robert..S..S..12..Scholar..Manchester
Joseph..Nephew..S..18..Waiter..Manchester
Charles MORRIS..Servant..S..2?..Waiter..Blackpool

UK

[uksearch]

RG 13 3665 folio 5
6 Derbyshire Lane,Stretford
Alfred HALL..H..M..48..Licensed Victualler.Pub...employer..Castleton
Mary J..W..M..46..Cheetham Hill
Florence FINCH..D..M..24..Manchester
Herbert FINCH..S i L..M..25..Salesman Book Warehouse..worker..Manchester
Mary MINTA..Vis..S..65..Retired Shopkeeper..Grocery..Cheetham Hill

UK

[uksearch]

There was an Edward EMPSON who was born c 1870 at South Repps Nolfolk.He appears on all the Census returns 1871 to 1901.

UK

[normanova]

Thank U so much for all the info U so kindly have given me. I do realise that I need to get my english dictionary. There are many words I dont really "get".

Publican?
And Census is it a term ore? Well I shall look it all up.I am just so greateful that I have gotten to know something more about this album.

I shall now have a look around and try to get this census thing working. But until next time (hopefuly soon) all the best!

[Pam Downes]

Very many thanks to Geoffers and UK for their help. Especially UK for the Edward Empson born in 1870.
I spent last night checking for a photographer in Davey Place in Rod's Norfolk directories. Found one who gloried in the name of William Shrubsole who was there between 1883 and 1892.
And
http://www.historicaldirectories.org/
gave me E. A. Day & Co in 1901. (Also managed to sidetrack myself when I saw another surname I'm researching mentioned :) ) Nothing for John Huggins though.
Then off to the listing that another Empson has made of all the Empsons on the GRO Index. Checked 1880 - 1950 but didn't find many Edwards.
Have now found the one born c1870 - registered Sept quarter 1869, Erpingham RD which includes South Repps.
Checked him out on the 1881 and found that he's one of the 'Antingham Empsons'. Not yet any connection with my line but I was in correspondence last year about Walter Edward - now known to be be the nephew of the Edward born in 1869 - who died 9 days before the end of WW1 aged 26.
That correspondence also included mention of Harry Empson who was in the Canadian Infantry and who died in 1917. He had a brother Edward William and their parents were Kenneth Samuel Empson and Venus (nee Hardy). On the 1891 census Venus and 7 children, the youngest only two weeks old, are in Kings Lynn Union Workhouse. No sign of Kenneth anywhere on the 1891. Both Kenneth and Edward are missing in 1901 and with Harry enlisting in the Canadian Forces I wonder if they were in Canada. Haven't yet looked for Harry on the 1901, so he might be missing too!

I haven't got the 1871 details for the Edward you found UK. Would it be possible for you to send me details of the family on the entry please? I'm obviously looking for any sisters of Edward.

Pam Downes

[uksearch]

RG 10 1797 folio 63
Schedule 111 (no address given) South Repps,North Walsham
Samuel LEGOOD..H..Wid..77..Market Gardener..Southrepps(sic)
Mary A..EMPSON..D..M..30..Southrepps
George EMPSON..S i L..M..27..Carter Ag..Southrepps
Richard EMPSON..GSon..1..Southrepps

The first entry is indexed as Samuel LYOOD and the second entry as Mary Ann.LEGOOD is my best guess as there seem to be a fair few in Norfolk. As for the second entry...you pays your money...you takes your choice

There are six other Edward EMPSONs dotted about the country in 1871 but none in Norfolk.Let me know if you want their details.

UK

[Pam Downes]

Thank you very much again, UK.
Bang goes the sisters theory for that Edward by the looks of things!
But I know that the Edward William of King's Lynn had sisters. However I seem to have drawn a blank on finding Ed or his dad, Kenneth, in Canada in 1901 (probably mid-ocean knowing my luck). Nor are they on the Ellis Island website. I have found the Attestation Papers for Harry, Edward's younger brother killed in WW1. He enlisted in British Columbia.
Will have to have a good think about this one, and possibly put out a plea to the Canadians on the forum once I know what I want to ask them. :D

(Norfolk wasn't on the list last time I had access to Ancestry, but I probably have most of the other Edwards from the 1871, thank you. Will remember your offer if I get stuck though. )

Pam Downes

[judeoshea]

The Photographer John Huggins was my G G Grandfather.He lived from 1825 to about 1887.There is a self-portrait of him in the archives at Norfolk County Council Library

http://norlink.norfolk.gov.uk/cgi-bin/vps2-pho.web.sh?session_no=561514&enqtype=SECOND&enqpara1=RESULT&rcn=NP00011990&media_code=53&sec_code=15&page=&no_of_results=9&type=AUTHKEY