what do I need to ask?

[kath]

Hi
I have asked in various forums for information regarding relatives in Worcestershire. Apart from general information eg. where places are, I have drawn blanks. I have these thoughts.

(read with voice getting more and more shrill)

There is no one in Worcestershire.

There is no one researching the same names.

I am asking the wrong questions.

I have given too much/too little information.

There was no census on 1861.

The person with the 1861 cesus is keeping it all to themselves.

Questions about other parts of the country/world get some answers. negative answers can help. Someone saying that my question is no good would help too.

I am becoming paranoid about this.!!!!!!!!!!

here are my surname interests in Worcestershire

PERKS STOURBRIDGE

CLARKE HANBURY

Any help most appreciated |help|

regards

Kath |banghead|

ps sorry for the rant

[Dave]

Might help if you ask specific question about specific people:D

If you ask the right questions rather being very broad we can help :)

In case you ask

Dave

WOR moderator

Pershore Worcestershire, WOR born and proud of it

[topaz]

hi Kath,

Don't despair - I am sure things will improve.

I am relatively new to genealogy and have found wonderful people willing to help when I am 'banging my head against a brick wall'. But, I have come to the conclusion, that if it were an easy journey it would not be worthy of the effort.

When you do find the information you seek it will be all the sweeter.

Good luck, I hope you soon find something that will spur you on to your next goal.

All the best
Caroline

[Clive Blackaby]

Hi Kath,
Not many people have their own copy of the 1861 census for Hanbury, so although you may get lucky, if someone is going to the records office and has time to do the look-up for you, or maybe has borrowed the film at their local LDS library, your best bet is probably going to be to order the film yourself and trawl through it. This can be done fairly quickly once you get the hang of scanning microfilm whilst it's still moving!
(I won't detail how to order films etc, but if your new to that game, then do ask!)

One tip. If you want something ask for it directly. "Census look-up 1861, Hanbury Worcs please :) " might have been a better headline for your posting back in November

[Peggy]

Hi Kath,

I don't think it is anything you are or are not doing, though there may not be anyone here researching the same names. I've posted requests in a couple of place forums that have netted me 0 replies. If I look at those forums, and at Worcs, I see a large number of posts with 0 replies. Our ancestors picked the wrong counties. :) Some forums are more active. And it appears to me that the moderators of some forums, and other members with interests in the area, keep an eye out and see to it that questions get answered, posting hundreds of times. The moderator of one forum on which I posted had sent one message back in October! I'm a colonial, so my knowledge is less than that of many, but whenever I notice a post that has been sitting with 0 replies I look to see if I can offer any help or suggestion. There are "referral points" for getting new members, but if they do not feel welcome. . . .

Best,

Peggy

[Peggy]

Hi Clive,

I'm sure you are right. The pity is that no one on the Worcs forum told Kath that back in November. She'd probably be at the FHC looking at film, rather than becoming paranoid. :)

Best,

Peggy

[Peter Goodey]

"your best bet is probably going to be to order the film yourself and trawl through it."

Absolutely true. Hanbury appears to extend over an entire piece of RG 9. If there is no name index, it means trawling through the entire piece. This is something I would think twice about for my own research! In fact, I have very few 1861 census records for this very reason - the only ones I do have are the "must haves" where I needed some data which I couldn't get from any other source.

Kath might want to consider whether she might be able to find out whatever it is she wants to find out from the 1851 census instead which has the advantage of having been fairly extensively name indexed (although I don't know specifically about Hanbury).

[Clive Blackaby]

Unless I've got it wrong 1 piece is about 300 pages. Provided the film, film reader, and researcher are all in good order, a 2 hour session at the FHL should more or less knock that off. It takes concentration, and you need to be focussed on the "shape" of the surname you are looking for and get used to the hand of the various enumerators, but it can be done. And when you find what you are looking for it's so much more rewarding than picking it up from Ancestry.com.

C :)

[Pam Downes]

Hi Kath,

I don't know how much you know about Hanbury in terms of population, etc, but if I was asking for a census look-up for a place which I didn't know much about (e.g. I know Worcester as the county town will have a lot of census pages) this is the action I would take.
First of all check that the census I'm requesting the look-up for has been released by Rod. (Or, in desperation, one of the others :) )
Check to see if the local FHS has released an index that I could purchase. Even for a place like Worcester if I could quote a piece and folio number I would probably get a response.
Details of the FHS can be found on Genuki
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/
click county, look for Societies
There's often a section headed census which may give a link to FreeCEN or a transcript on someone's personal website.
And either Genuki or GenWeb
http://www.britishislesgenweb.org/
might have some more info about the place I'm researching. e.g. possible transcript of a directory entry with details of population, local tradespeople, etc.
Plus possibly look-up offers and surnames interest pages.
The National Archives will tell me how many folios were in the census for 1851 so for say 1861 I'd add on 10%, and have an idea if what I was asking was a BIG ask or a possible ask.
http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/default.asp
click search the catalogue
enter place name , 1851, HO107
Care because result may also include result for 1841 which also used prefix HO107. Relevant year is in column on right-hand side.

However NOTHING can beat looking at the census yourself. YOU are the one who will spot all instances of your surname and make a note in case they are (as yet) unknown brothers/sisters/parents. Therefore if you have a local LDS FHC ask them to order the census for you to view. And when you find who you're looking for your triumphant 'YES' will be heard by Peggy in Florida :D
(I can tell you the day, date and almost the time I made my first 'find'.)
If you don't know if you have a local FHC
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Library/FHC/frameset_fhc.asp
just select England.

Pam Downes

[Peter Goodey]

"No pain - No gain!"

I wasn't claiming it was impractical to plough through an entire piece - in fact I indicated that I'd done it myself. However long it might take, Kath could certainly have polished it off in the time she's been sitting there stewing.

The point I didn't make very well was that we all (I think) make a judgement about whether something is actually worth doing, taking into account the effort involved and what we're likely to find out. Hence my suggestion that she might be better off exploring the 1851 census. At least in Victorian times there is a reasonable range of resources to choose from. It's when you get back to 1700 or earlier, say, that you're really scrabbling around looking for sources and need to grab whatever's available.

[ruthrrr]

your best bet is probably going to be to order the film yourself and trawl through it. ........(I won't detail how to order films etc, but if your new to that game, then do ask!)


Can I be a pain and ask how you go about it please?

Ruth

[Peter Goodey]

"Can I be a pain and ask how you go about it please? "

Covered pretty comprehensively in this thread:-

http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1239

[Peggy]

[much more rewarding than picking it up from Ancestry]

I don't understand this part. Is this the old "when I was your age I had to walk 20 miles through the snow to view the film" syndrome? <G> If it is less rewarding to "pick it up" (not always so easy!) from Ancestry, should we also eschew FreeBmd, FreeCen, published indices, 1837 online, or even Archive CDs? Or maybe toss out these computers? Don't e-mail that library; do as I used to do and send a snail with an IRC!
I'd agree that having an entire tree dumped in your lap can be pretty meaningless. But if you search for your family history, there is enough digging to be done to occupy several lifetimes. I could go to my FHC, order a bunch of films or fiche, go back in 6-8 weeks, and use my allotted hour or 2 a week on the reader to search a census. I for one will avoid that pain if I can get the gain another way!

Peggy

[kath]

Good evening everyone

What have I started?

A big thank you to all of you for replying. I really have learned alot. I didnt' know about the 1861 census and I agree that trawling through all that would be an enormous ask. I won't do it again.

There is a LFH near - I haven't used it yet - but will in future. In the light of what has been said the 1851 census looks like my next port of call.

The details you have given me has made me understand more of what i can reasonably ask. Especially the bits about the census piece etc. I just wish I had known some before.

I really appreciate all your contributions. I hope I haven't offended anyone I certainly didn't intend to.

Kind regards

Kath :)

[Clive Blackaby]

However NOTHING can beat looking at the census yourself. YOU are the one who will spot all instances of your surname and make a note in case they are (as yet) unknown brothers/sisters/parents. Therefore if you have a local LDS FHC ask them to order the census for you to view. And when you find who you're looking for your triumphant 'YES' will be heard by Peggy in Florida :D
(I can tell you the day, date and almost the time I made my first 'find'.)
Having gone through an 1851 census film in 2 x 1.5 hour sessions tonight, I and a fellow researcher have to echo that. It was only in the last half hour, when we were both switching from anticipation (they must be in the next few pages - we're near the end of the film) to near despair, that we found a set of great great grandparents apiece, living about a mile apart. Hers were mis-spelled (or they changed their name at some stage - who will ever know?), mine spelled with an indistinct vowel (Black:confused: by - is that an a or an e) where ten years previously he had an "er"

[BeeE586]

Kath - Neither you nor any other poster has caused offence so far as I can see, don't worry about it. We have all had to start somewhere, and when I started some thirty years ago 'trawling' was the only way so that is what we did - visited record offices and libraries and looked at books or sat in front of machines. As the 'sport' developed we used what became available - I remember a slim file at a local library called CFI - Computer File Index - which became the IGI, and what an advance that seemed at the time ! We joined Family History Societies and actually wrote letters to people who advertised their interests - this still goes on, not everyone has a computer and can send e-mails. I have spent short holidays in London, Stafford, Worcester, Bewdley, Shrewsbury and Edinburgh to visit Record Offices, to say nothing of days at Matlock, Nottingham, Lincoln and Sheffield. A friend and I between us bought a reader and seven counties of the IGI on fiche, and dozens of other fiche of census indexes, Phillimore Marriages, etc. etc. I bought my first computer in 1987, an AMSTRAD 1512 and thought it the cat's whiskers, with a DOUBLE DISC DRIVE taking 5 1/4" discs. Those were the days !!

The thing is, I enjoyed every minute. There is a rare pleasure in handling a register that somebody was writing in 400 years ago, or unfolding a will actually written by an ancestor in 1563. That really puts one in touch with one's past, and nothing that can be done on a computer compares with it.

No, I am not advocating we should all return to those times, but perhaps we should remember that a lot of the published material we rely on today has been transcribed by members of Family History Societies and others who did (and still do) spend time and effort 'trawling' and transcribing. How do you suppose all the stuff gets on to FREEREG or FREECEN or whatever, and yes, I have contributed to FREEREG and to Family History Societies, Archives and Libraries.

Eileen

[BeeE586]

Kath - I have PARKS and PARKES in Old Swinford and Stourbridge in the 1700's, and have seen it written as PERKS

John PARKS married Lydia NAIL in Old Swinford in 1766
Job BRIDGWATER married Lydia PARKES d of above in Old Swinford in 1791
Elijah BRIDGWATER s of above married Mary PARKES at STS Kingswinford in 1832

Benjamin Bridgwater, son of Elijah and Mary was my Gr Grandfather. He was a Spademaker and moved into Derbyshire c1860.

|cheers| - Eileen

[AnnB]

The thing is, I enjoyed every minute. There is a rare pleasure in handling a register that somebody was writing in 400 years ago, or unfolding a will actually written by an ancestor in 1563. That really puts one in touch with one's past, and nothing that can be done on a computer compares with it.

I totally agree with Eileen's comments. There is no substitute for looking at the origanal documents, and we were the lucky ones, in many cases, as some of the documents we looked at are now deemed too fragile to look at. By all means use every aid available to you, but don't be too hasty to 'get your family tree finished' You will have to live an awful long time to get it all done and dusted, there is always something else you can find out about someone. And that is the one great thing about the internet, you will always find someone else, or an unexplored website, to point you in a new direction. I do a lot of transcribing/indexing for the local Record Office/Local Studies, and hope I am helping those who haven't got the time to trawl through the originals to at least pinpoint where they should be looking - then go to the original to see for themselves. I would hope that no-one takes all I have done for granted as I know I must have made mistakes allong the way.

Best wishes
Ann

[Peggy]

I must be missing something here. The original pain/gain comment was about looking at a census at the FHC rather than "picking it up" on Ancestry.

Is the census image I view on Ancestry (or other online service) different from the one I'd see on film at the FHC? Is trawling on Ancestry (I've been through my native NY township for the 8 "every-name" census years available) different from trawling at a FHC?

The only differences I'm aware of are that my computer is available more than 4 hours a week, and my oversized monitor is easier on my eyes than the machines at the FHC.

Peggy

[BeeE586]

May I just emphasize a point made by AnnB - NEVER NEVER NEVER take as gospel anything found in an Index. We are all human, we all make mistakes as some of the examples given in various posts illustrate. The very first thing I was told at the first Family History class I attended was 'Always check the primary source if at all possible'. I know it is not always possible, but if in doubt apply to the Archivist or Librarian where the primary source is held. They at least have been trained in, and have experience of, reading documents.
Any index is only a starting point, suggesting a way to go, but it is someone else's work and their interpretation of what is written. Be aware.

Eileen

[Peggy]

Hi Eileen,

I guess you aren't replying to me, as I wasn't writing about indices, but I'll chime in anyway to say that I couldn't agree more.

You can't even take as gospel what you find on original documents. I've got 2 "widowers" on census returns whose wives turned out to be alive.

An excellent genealogist once came across a probate file for a member of my family, and very kindly sent me a list of heirs. She mistranscribed one name. When I finally got a photocopy (I'm 1500 miles from the original), the correct name broke down a brick wall to disclose 3 lost branches of the family.

Cheers,

Peggy

[Clive Blackaby]

I must be missing something here. The original pain/gain comment was about looking at a census at the FHC rather than "picking it up" on Ancestry.

Is the census image I view on Ancestry (or other online service) different from the one I'd see on film at the FHC? Is trawling on Ancestry (I've been through my native NY township for the 8 "every-name" census years available) different from trawling at a FHC?

The only differences I'm aware of are that my computer is available more than 4 hours a week, and my oversized monitor is easier on my eyes than the machines at the FHC.

PeggyPeggy,
You are of course quite right in this particular - where you can get at facsimiles of the original documents either on Ancestry or on the ever growing range of offerings from ACDB, it is every bit as good (from the viewpoint of finding specific information), and is quicker and more convenient (though sometimes rather more costly, and a little less sociable) than trawling through microfilm at the LDS FHL or through dusty originals at Kew.
But although I am not an advocate of pain for its own sake, there is a certain intrinsic pleasure in handling the original, or in reading more than just the single page out of context; also in the feeling of "discovery" when you find something that nobody has indexed, and possibly only a handful of people have given more than a passing glance or a quick click with a microfilm camera in a hundred years!

Clive

[Peggy]

Clive,
When it comes to the census (where you started in message 8), you are beating a dead horse. One does not handle originals at the FHC, one handles films or fiche! There is no need to view one page of a census "out of context" on Ancestry. As I said, I've gone through my entire (NY) township, page by page, for various years.

As for cost, I'll bet you can walk into an FHC in England and find UK census films (and the GRO index?) on permanent loan. Here, if I don't order them they stay in SLC. Online access is cheaper and more convenient than ordering all of the films and paying to keep them on hand. I use my FHC (open a whole 4 hours a week, and squeezed into an oversized closet) for what I can't get online.
If you want to talk about viewing original documents, at Kew or elsewhere, I would not disagree. I would love to handle the 1810 lease my GGG-GF signed. But a photocopy fits my budget better than a trip across the Pond. <sigh>

Peggy

[kath]

Hi everyone

When I set out on my research I thouht all i needed to know would be found in the place I was born.:D Having no family to ask and not having had any discussion when relatives were alive I thought it would be fairly easy to find things out. So, as many of you will have experienced I soon came down to earth. My contacts are all on the internet. I can't travel about much so have relied on others for their help. There are wonderful people out there and many have given me leads or better. This forum is great because i have learned a lot about what to do next. So a big thank you to everyone for their advice and help.

The bits about accuracy are so true. I have enumerated the last two censuses and it was always stressed that accuracy was important. However the space given to write things in was not that big and we had to use pencil which as you know soon becomes worn down I can appreciate enumerators from the past.
So to end a gem from the census. In the future there will be some puzzeled relatives trying to find the address of one person who gave their employer as God and his address as heaven.

Kind regards

Kath;)

[Peggy]

Hi Kath,

You were looking for people on the 1861 census. Does that mean that you've found them on the 1881? If so, have you entered them on Lost Cousins? You might find a relative, however distant, that way. Some of the most helpful family info I've gotten has come from 3rd and 4th (and 7th!) cousins I never knew existed. And one of them gave me some advice that has led to several smashed brickwalls. He told me to post queries and "write" my surnames "on every wall of the web." <G> I'm still hearing from "new" cousins who find listings or messages I put up over 10 years ago. One said "I googled my gr-gr-grandfather, and your name and address kept coming up!"

Now, I have to ask: did the person employed by God have an occupation that fit? :D

Best,

Peggy

[kath]

Hi Peggy

Yes I've put all my 1881 names on the site. No one has contacted me so far. I have come to realise that at the moment I am the only one researching my direct lines. There are some doing one name studies but i don't think this counts regarding my family. i have had some help that way. It is so frustrating but it will pass and i can now send for some more certficates so that will help.

Yes the job does fit.

Kath ;)

[ruthrrr]

Hi Peggy

I have come to realise that at the moment I am the only one researching my direct lines.

Kath ;)

Hi Kath

I felt like that but in the past year I have contacted and been contacted by 4 very distant cousins. As a result I found one branch of the family (including a GGG Grandfather) emigrated to New Zealand - no wonder I couldn't find them! Have you tried any of the following websites: gencircles, or genesconnected - definately worth a try. Also mailing lists and leaving your interests on "surname interest" type websites (although with those I do tend to leave a yahoo mailing address instead of my home address to try and deter spam |laugh1|

Ruth

[kath]

Hi Ruth

I have left my interests on various sites but as far as surnames I've been contacted about four times. No links to tham so far. I've been given some really useful information about places and how and what to search. My geography has really improved!!! Reading some of the topics, even if you think there're not relevant, can be very interesting too.

Kath ;)