National Archives - Document Services

[Peter Goodey]

National Archives have announced a significant, and rather nasty, change to their Document Copying Service.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/news/stories/260.htm?WT.hp=nf

[busyglen]

Thanks for the warning Peter. I'm glad I got the document I wanted at the end of last year.

Glenys

[AnnB]

Thanks for pointing that out Peter, but what a disappointing announcement. It has been such a good service up to now.

Best wishes
Ann

[Peter Goodey]

They used to charge for estimates. Why don't they reinstate that system?

A charge would surely be better than the sort of restrictive conditions that would make the service almost unusable.

[AnnB]

I agree entirely. It would be nigh on impossible to know how many pages were going to be involved. I think they may find their number of orders will drop off dramatically.

Ann

[Colin Moretti]

Why not send them a message (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/contact/form/generalcontactform.asp?id=3&action=1)complaining about the change? I've just done so.

Colin

[MythicalMarian]

This is very pertinent to me at the moment, as I spent ages trying to negotiate their website for the documents I needed a couple of nights ago. When searches were bringing up nothing, I emailed them. I got a long spiel about employing professional searchers etc. or going down to search myself, but I was told that if I could find the exact reference numbers etc. they would still search - but the cost seems somewhat high. They also pointed me to an online leaflet that was useless - they clearly do not employ many historians! I was after the state papers dealing with the trials of the English Jacobites from the '45 (held at Southwark in 1746). They pointed me towards '18th century criminals' and asked me to provide 'details of the offence'.... It was even more frustrating to find that these catalogues started in 1791! Rather than write back and inform them that the 'particular offence' was High Treason, and I was hardly likely to find them among sheep stealers from Spitalfields, I scoured the web for scholars who had used and cited the papers I needed, and finally tracked down the refs on the NA website.

I don't hold out much hope of them finding the exact things I need, so I think I'm heading for Kew when the weather improves.

In the old days of the PRO, documents were produced with alacrity, I seem to remember, for a nominal fee. Way back in 1987 I sent one letter detailing a document I required. By return of post I got the quote for producing copies, and the whole thing was done and dusted within about 10 days. I think the present online catalogue actually hinders truly historical searching.

[v.wells]

I was trying to navigate TNA this morning and it is just hopeless. Just went round in circles. Even though the old site was difficult at least it was easier to search. Their "researchers" are just hired clerks that search through boxes that are numbered and alphabetical and by subject. I think the gov't credit crunch has made them cut too many corners to trim costs. I don't think it is fair to charge by the page or whatever when you don't know how many pages it may contain.

"The old days" were just last month!

And I have already lodged my complaints to them this morning |soapbox|

[Ladkyis]

I think I have only ever found one thing when searching TNA online catalogue. I thought it was me. I just cannot get anything in the documents thing so I come on here and ask and someone gives me a link that helps.

I think what they are saying is that when they had the estimating service people were asking for an estimate and then not continuing with the transaction and purchasing.
The people probably had a sharp intake of breath at the price and decided not to bother. This is a combination of the prices being a little higher than we expect and people wanting something for nothing.

If they charged a small fee for compiling the estimate then they would get the more serious researcher and then they could knock that charge off the total bill for copying

[Geoffers]

I was after the state papers dealing with the trials of the English Jacobites from the '45 (held at Southwark in 1746).

There's a file in KB8/69 (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATID=4131856&CATLN=6&Highlight=%2CSOUTHWARK&accessmethod=0&Summary=True)
A list of prisoners in SP54/30/60 (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATID=-1243490&CATLN=7&Highlight=%2CSOUTHWARK&accessmethod=0&Summary=True)
and a series of files (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/searchresults.asp?SearchInit=0&txtsearchterm=trial+AND+rebel&txtfirstdate=1745&txtlastdate=1746&txtrestriction=SP&hdnsorttype=Reference&image1.x=25&image1.y=12)relating to trials of rebels in SP.

Any of those what you are after?


I don't hold out much hope of them finding the exact things I need, so I think I'm heading for Kew when the weather improves.

Sadly for those of us with some degree of injury, travel to Kew is extremely difficult and the restrictions being imposed make obtaining copies of documents very difficult. I'd be happy to pay for someone's time to prepare an estimate so I could order documents and carry on research.


In the old days of the PRO, documents were produced with alacrity, I seem to remember, for a nominal fee. Way back in 1987 I sent one letter detailing a document I required.

I can remember a few years before then 'phoning the PRO and asking after a document - spoke to someone who clearly knew his way around the files, "ah yes, you need .........." and he quoted the correct E179 file seemingly off the top of his head.


I think the present online catalogue actually hinders truly historical searching.

I'd disagree there. The catalogue is much better than it was; and having it available makes searching for documents so much easier - provided you know how to look and for what. Being familiar with its layout helps; in my view it is much better than the big old file I remember using to try and locate documents in Chancery Lane.

[Ladkyis]

Then I will ask you what I should be looking for in future - and then I shall ask my S-i-L's brother to go down the road and collect for me as he lives in Putney and can do that sort of thing.

[MythicalMarian]

There's a file in KB8/69 (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATID=4131856&CATLN=6&Highlight=%2CSOUTHWARK&accessmethod=0&Summary=True)
A list of prisoners in SP54/30/60 (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATID=-1243490&CATLN=7&Highlight=%2CSOUTHWARK&accessmethod=0&Summary=True)
and a series of files (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/searchresults.asp?SearchInit=0&txtsearchterm=trial+AND+rebel&txtfirstdate=1745&txtlastdate=1746&txtrestriction=SP&hdnsorttype=Reference&image1.x=25&image1.y=12)relating to trials of rebels in SP.

Any of those what you are after?


Yes, Geoffers - those are part of the series. I did hit on those references eventually. But thanks for your tireless hard work, as always. I will await their email to see how much they are going to charge. |help|

[busyglen]

I've only once asked for an estimate for something, which happened to be details of my gt. gt. grandfather's Met. Police details. I found the section that I needed and the initial letter, and they came back with the price for the two pages that contained the entries. From memory it wasn't extortionate, and I was quite happy to pay the price for the search and the eventual posting costs of the document.

I'm not sure what I would do now, if I have occasion to obtain more records.

Glenys

[MythicalMarian]

On this very topic, I have to add a codicil. It would appear that - as with many sites - less is more at TNA. I have not only found my exact document online now, but I've paid for the damned thing and a digital PDF of it is on its way to my email! :)

I have to thank Vanessa for this. I was reading through the thread on the First World War deserters and Vanessa had kindly supplied a search link for the TNA, advising the poster to put her ancestor's name into the box. So, I thought I'd try this with my Jacobite lads. I simply entered their names one by one. Of course, pages of documents came up on men with the same name, but I eventually scrolled down to the exact docs - the extracts and transcripts of each man's trial in July 1746. £8.50 a copy, guaranteed to arrive within 24 hours!

So, all that scrapping about and putting in historical references, which took forever to find what I wanted, has simply been negated by following a good old genealogical approach after all!

A big thanks to our Vanessa for this handy hint. Next time I use TNA I'll keep it simple. :)

[Beebee]

For me, the NA web site is the most difficult to search for records. I have an Ancestor who was in the Royal Navy and was a Stoker on HMS Queen Mary at the Battle of Jutland, I know from another forum that records ADM116/1532 are records of those who lost their lives on this ship, yet when I go into the catalogue and enter HMS Queen Mary into the "Word or Phrase" field it show 2 results with neither of them being the above records, but if I enter ADM116/1532 into the "Go to reference" field, there it is in black and white "Loss of HMS Queen Mary". So for me to even find the records I want would be an achievement, let alone knowing what pages I would want copied. Maybe it is just me not knowing how to use the search facility correctly, but from what I have read in this thread, I am not alone. |banghead|

[v.wells]

On this very topic, I have to add a codicil. It would appear that - as with many sites - less is more at TNA. I have not only found my exact document online now, but I've paid for the damned thing and a digital PDF of it is on its way to my email! :)

I have to thank Vanessa for this. I was reading through the thread on the First World War deserters and Vanessa had kindly supplied a search link for the TNA, advising the poster to put her ancestor's name into the box. So, I thought I'd try this with my Jacobite lads. I simply entered their names one by one. Of course, pages of documents came up on men with the same name, but I eventually scrolled down to the exact docs - the extracts and transcripts of each man's trial in July 1746. £8.50 a copy, guaranteed to arrive within 24 hours!

So, all that scrapping about and putting in historical references, which took forever to find what I wanted, has simply been negated by following a good old genealogical approach after all!

A big thanks to our Vanessa for this handy hint. Next time I use TNA I'll keep it simple. :)

What's the hint? I have lost it and need it back!:o :D

[MythicalMarian]

Here it is, Vanessa:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search/quick_search.aspx?j=t

I had Googled 'First World War deserters' for a friend who has a problem with what may have been a man who deserted and up came a topic from our very own forum. It's an old thread, but when I clicked on your link it took me straight to the NA search page and I entered my Jack lads' names. Worked a treat!

[Geoffers]

For me, the NA web site is the most difficult to search for records. I have an Ancestor who was in the Royal Navy and was a Stoker on HMS Queen Mary at the Battle of Jutland, I know from another forum that records ADM116/1532 are records of those who lost their lives on this ship, yet when I go into the catalogue and enter HMS Queen Mary into the "Word or Phrase" field it show 2 results with neither of them being the above records

It all depends on how infroamtion is entered as to how it may be retrieved.

In the example you give, the reason that ADM116/1532 does not show up is becuase in the catalogue the file refers to H.M.S. Queen Mary rather than HMS Queen Mary - see the difference? Okay - it would help if there was consistency in with these abbreviations - but as there is not we have to find a way around things and this is to search using the 'less is more' strategy.

Search the catalogue with the string
Queen Mary
1916-1916
ADM

and you get six hits, including ADM116/1532



Maybe it is just me not knowing how to use the search facility correctly

Practice helps - in my opinion The Catalogue is improving all the time and is one of the most important resources available to those researching family history in the UK - which is why the restrictions on the copying service are so annoying.

Some of the problems in searching are down to the way documents were originally classified; but these can be overcome if you get used to the oddities and use the research guides.