The Two Waters. 13 High St. Rickmansworth

[Richard1955]

Is this still a pub?
How would I go about finding a list of Licencees for this pub.

Somebody help me please.
Richard

[birdlip]

Hi Richard,

I think you may have misread my post on the Holland I O W thread. In 1901 Eliza is listed as a 'Licensed Victualler; Pub' (my punctuation marks). The last column filled out on the census is place of birth, and hers states 'Herts, Two Waters'. So she came from a village in Hertfordshire called Two Waters. An unusual name I know, but it's not the name of a pub.

cheers birdlip

[birdlip]

Looks like its a suburb of Hemel Hempstead now.

You may be able to find out more about Eliza's pub though, by searching using the street address. There should be a Trade Directory for the area that would list it.

[Jan1954]

Two Waters (http://www.genuki.org.uk/cgi-bin/gazplace?CCC=HRT,GR=TL050050,PLACE=TWO%20WATERS) is an area just south of Hemel Hempstead, on the way to Apsley and Kings Langley.

[Richard1955]

I can see it now Birdlip. Uw, I do feel a fool!
I'll try the directories.
Many thanks
Richard

[birdlip]

My fault Richard, I should have put a few commas in! Good luck with the directories, I see there's one for Herts 1902.

[Richard1955]

Hi Birdlip.
Where does that name come from?
Have spent hours searching Kelly's 1902 Herts with no luck. Very interesting though and I'm sure I will find it useful in the future.
Any idea how else I can find the name of the pub at
13 High St. Two Waters. Rickmansworth. Herts?
Licencee Eliza HOLLAND

Anyone?

Regards
Richard

[Geoffers]

.
Any idea how else I can find the name of the pub at
13 High St. Two Waters. Rickmansworth. Herts?
Licencee Eliza HOLLAND

I think you need to review what you are looking for slightly.

The 1901 census RG13/1321 f97 p3 records that
Eliza HOLLAND was aged 62 and she was born in Southampton, Hampshire

The reference to Two Waters relates to the line above Eliza - So forget Two Waters, which is some distance from Rickmansworth anyway.

Also, Eliza was living in High Steet, Rickmansworth - BUT - 13 is the schedule number - not the house number. Do you know the difference between the two?

[Geoffers]

Further to the above

Checking the 1891 census, the enumerator looks to have followed a similar route in places to that used 10 years later.

The 1891 census includes the name of the property at what seems to be about the right location in High Street as 'The Coach and Horses'

If you use a search engine, and look for 'Coach and Horses Rickmansworth' you'll see it has its own web-site.

The Rickmansworthweb.co.uk has a photo of the outside of the pub.

The geograph.org.uk site has a photo of the pub.

[birdlip]

I think you need to review what you are looking for slightly.

The 1901 census RG13/1321 f97 p3 records that
Eliza HOLLAND was aged 62 and she was born in Southampton, Hampshire

The reference to Two Waters relates to the line above Eliza - So forget Two Waters, which is some distance from Rickmansworth anyway.

Also, Eliza was living in High Steet, Rickmansworth - BUT - 13 is the schedule number - not the house number. Do you know the difference between the two?
Oh dear geoffers.. thankyou. I shall hang my head in shame

[birdlip]

Sorry Richard, looks like its been a case of the blind leading the blind, I shall bow out and leave you in geoffers capable hands.

[Geoffers]

Oh dear geoffers.. thankyou. I shall hang my head in shame

An easy mistake which I have frequently made - you make me feel better knowing I am not alone.

[birdlip]

Geoffers, gracious as always....you're such a sweetie.

[Richard1955]

Well, every day there is something to learn! Thanks to everyone who has participated. We got there in the end that's the important thing and that's great.
Geoffer.
I have found the Coach and Horses and it's website but dismissed it as it's
No 20 High Street although I did have a feeling it was right. Lovely pub that will be getting a visit from me sometime.
Can I be really cheeky just once and ask you to send the info on the 1891 census in a very simplistic format.


Thanks everyone
Richard

[Geoffers]

Looking at the 1891 census shows Eliza with her address as:

RG13/1121 f30 p9 sch.55
Cart & Horses, High St, Rickmansworth
Eliza HOLLAND, hd, wid, 52, Licensed Victualler, bn Southampton
With her are her children
Henry 19, bn (Shirley?), Hants
Margaret I 16, bn Ryde, IoW
Amy C 14, bn Cowes, IoW
Fanny 12, bn Ventnor IoW
Bessie A 9, bn Ventnor IoW

Do double check the entry for yourself to make sure that I have not made an error

This web-site (http://www.breweryhistory.com/journal/archive/119/bh-119-032.html) seems to indicate that whereas the Coach and Horses is still standing, the Cart and Horses has been demolished.

This web-site (http://hertspubs.com/HertsPubs/Rickmansworth/CartHorses.shtml)is also informative

[Richard1955]

Chin up Birdlip. We got there in the end and many thanks for taking the time to try and help

Regards
Richard

[Richard1955]

Thank you so much for sorting that out for me and for being patient.
Always lots to learn!
Also learnt lots from the websites you sent but the most interesting was the Coach and Horses history section that went into the Salter's family history, the owners of the Cart Horse.

Regards
Richard

[birdlip]

Chin up Birdlip. We got there in the end and many thanks for taking the time to try and help

Regards
Richard

Thanks Richard...and I'm very glad you DID get there in the end!

[Richard1955]

If it makes you feel better Geoffers got the name of the pub wrong the first time with the Coach and Horses. Easily done.
You never did answer my question about your name. Just wondering as we have a village not far from here called Birdlip in Gloucestershire. England

[birdlip]

Yes...named after Birdlip near you. We used to live in Minchinhampton many years ago, so its just a bit of nostalgia really.

[Richard1955]

I know it well. Nice place. If you would like some more nostalgia then let me have the address and I'll take some pics for you and send them on.
Regards
Richard

[Richard1955]

Hi Geoffers
I have exhausted all avenues of research from the info I have so far from you and it's been very interesting. Thanks.
As I have no work for a month and little to do I could do with some more info to work on and wondered if you would help me. I need to find this family on the 1871 census
(pos Fulham) and earlier census and can only do this if I join the club ie Roots etc.
Can't do that at the moment and would appreciate your help.
1881 census
Phillip H. HOLLAND Head M Male 43 Clapham Road, Surrey, England
Manager To Brewer's Agency
Eliza HOLLAND Wife M Female 42 Southampton, Hampshire, England Managers Wife
Phillip J. HOLLAND Son Male 12 Fulham, Middlesex, England Scholar
Henry F. HOLLAND Son Male 9 Shirley, Hampshire, England Scholar
Margaret J. HOLLAND Daur Female 10 Ryde, Isle of Wight, Hampshire, England Scholar
Amy C. HOLLAND Daur Female 4 Cowes, Isle of Wight, Hampshire, England Scholar
Fanny E. HOLLAND Daur Female 2 Ventnor, Isle of Wight, Hampshire, England
No 56 High Street. Ventnor, Hampshire, England
Film 1341290 RG11 Piece / Folio 1185 / 9 Pg 12
Hope you don't mind me asking but I get the feeling your sitting there online and waiting to burst into action.
Regards
Richard

[Geoffers]

Film 1341290 RG11 Piece / Folio 1185 / 9 Pg 12

You have a slightly confused reference here.

The film number is not needed so you can forget that.

The reference that is required by The National Archives is:

The class number - RG11
The Piece number - 1185
Folio - 9
Page 12

This is often abbreviated in this way - RG11/1185 f9 p12

In 1871 the family were in Hampshire

RG10/1199 f120 p28
Millbrook, Hampshire
(It's part of Southampton, near the River Test)
Philip H HOLLAND, hd, mar, 33, Brewer Collector, bn Clapham, Sry
Eliza Holland, wf, mar, 32, bn Southampton, Ham
Philip J Holland, son, 2, bn Fulham, Mdx

[Richard1955]

I appreciate that Geoffers. Thank you.
What do you think a Brewer Collector is/was?
Can't find anything on the net except an American baseball team.

Richard