OGILVIE, MOORE, LONG

[hetsgirl]

|banghead|I have had quite a journey in this.
My father GEORGE OGILVIE born 1886? in Melbourne?, (According to his attestation papers) got married in 1918 to LOUISA DOROTHY BOUTALL and then went AWOL from the Canadian Force in England in 1919. Disappeared and then married my Mum HARRIET MARY ANN JEX in Dec 1923 under an assumed name of GEORGE LONG in Manchester UK.
On his various papers (before he changed his name!) he stated his father as LESLIE OGILVIE, Doctor (Born 1853 in Glasgow, lived 46 WELBECK STREET, London W1) and his uncle GEORGE OGILVIE Doctor (Born 1852 in Glasgow, lived 22 Welbeck Street, London W1) (both proven to have existed)
LESLIE (my grandfather as above) got married in 1893 - in theory 7 years after my Dad was born) to MARY ETHEL MOORE (born about 1861 - Father WILLIAM GODFREY MOORE - a farmer) I cannot find any earlier record of his marrying. My dad gave his mothers name as ETHEL OGILVIE on his army pay record.
So far it's taken 35 years - absolutely ANY help would be appreciated

[Lesley Robertson]

|banghead|I have had quite a journey in this.
My father GEORGE OGILVIE born 1886? in Melbourne?, (According to his attestation papers) got married in 1918 to LOUISA DOROTHY BOUTALL and then went AWOL from the Canadian Force in England in 1919. Disappeared and then married my Mum HARRIET MARY ANN JEX in Dec 1923 under an assumed name of GEORGE LONG in Manchester UK.
On his various papers (before he changed his name!) he stated his father as LESLIE OGILVIE, Doctor (Born 1853 in Glasgow, lived 46 WELBECK STREET, London W1) and his uncle GEORGE OGILVIE Doctor (Born 1852 in Glasgow, lived 22 Welbeck Street, London W1) (both proven to have existed)
LESLIE (my grandfather as above) got married in 1893 - in theory 7 years after my Dad was born) to MARY ETHEL MOORE (born about 1861 - Father WILLIAM GODFREY MOORE - a farmer) I cannot find any earlier record of his marrying. My dad gave his mothers name as ETHEL OGILVIE on his army pay record.
So far it's taken 35 years - absolutely ANY help would be appreciated


If George was born in Melbourne, have you had any luck finding Leslie and wife on a passenger list? Did he and Ethel marry in London or Melbourne? I would look for Leslie in the 1881 and 1891 census (to confirm either that he was single pre-Ethel or that there's a mistake in the marriage year). I'd also be looking for a previous mariage for Ethel - it's possible that they were living as man and wife but she had a previous spouse who either died or divorced her.

I've found Leslie in the 1881 on Family Search, unmarried, lodging at 40 Weymouth St, London. He's 27, a physician MB Edinburgh Uni.

Lesley

[Marie C..]

Was George born in Melbourne Australia or melbourne England?

[Lesley Robertson]

Was George born in Melbourne Australia or melbourne England?


FreeBMD has George Ogivies in 1885 and 1887, but not 1886.
Now that I'm thinking geographically, we do have a complete mix here. Father born in Scotland. Son Born in Melbourne, in the Canadian armed forces! I'm almost afraid to ask where he married Louisa!
|biggrin|
I tried a census search for Louisa on the Family Search site (1880-1881, England & Wales, USA and Canada) and found nobody young enough for an 1886 bridegroom.

I think I have your next generation back. William Ogilvie and Margaret Mitchell had 3 children baptised in Barony, Lanark (just down the road from Glasgow). George bap 19 Mar 1852, Leslie bap 14 Apr 1853, Edith bap 25 Sep 1854. I was rather hoping for something in 1855 or after, to find a bith cert!

George is also in the 1881 on family search, as a physician and head of household (1 boarder, 4 servants including a butler) in Twickenham.

No obvious sign of Edith, so she was either married or still in Scotland.
It would be worth checking William & Margaret in the 1851 on Scotlands People. Looks like they weren't short of money!

Lesley

[AdeleE]

Images of George Ogilvie's attestation papers can be found at the Library & Archives website:

http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/cef/001042-100.01-e.php

Type his name into the search box. He's the Lt. The chase is on!

Adele

[AdeleE]

Leslie Ogilvie is married on the 1891 census, living at 46 Wellbeck Street. There is no spouse or son in the home, only 2 female servants Jessie Ross & Mary Ann Shaw.

Adele

[AdeleE]

There is this birth record for a George Ogilvie:

Name: George Norman Ogilvie
Year of Registration: 1885
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Marylebone (1837-1901)
County: London, Middlesex
Volume: 1a
Page: 680

Perhaps the attestation paper was recorded incorrectly & that was the start of George's deceptions. Someone else was filling out the attestation papers for George to sign. Perhaps George said Marylebone, the recruiter heard it as Melbourne, and George thought "Why not?"

Adele

[AdeleE]

And finally, here's a link to Leslie Ogilvie's obituary in the British Medical Journal Feb 1901. The link is to page 433. On Page 434 is the final paragraph stating that he leaves a widow & 3 children.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pagerender.fcgi?artid=2400360&pageindex=1#page

Adele

[Lesley Robertson]

Leslie Ogilvie is married on the 1891 census, living at 46 Wellbeck Street. There is no spouse or son in the home, only 2 female servants Jessie Ross & Mary Ann Shaw.

Adele


Did they give a birth parish for the wife?
Lesley

[hetsgirl]

If George was born in Melbourne, have you had any luck finding Leslie and wife on a passenger list? Did he and Ethel marry in London or Melbourne? I would look for Leslie in the 1881 and 1891 census (to confirm either that he was single pre-Ethel or that there's a mistake in the marriage year). I'd also be looking for a previous mariage for Ethel - it's possible that they were living as man and wife but she had a previous spouse who either died or divorced her.

I've found Leslie in the 1881 on Family Search, unmarried, lodging at 40 Weymouth St, London. He's 27, a physician MB Edinburgh Uni.

Lesley

I've looked on the passenger lists into Canada and England and cannot find likely people. In the 1891 census he is living in the house on 46 Welbeck Street (Alone) - I have found a record in the Times where he and his brother were out with another gentlemen and two women at the Lyceum and Leslies watch was stolen. That was in 1886 - and I have found him mentioned as a donor in 1886 and in registers in 1887 so I doubt if he went to Australia.
Looking at Mary Ethel, she married Leslie in 1893 in Brentford Registry and gave her maiden name (MOORE) - and she was 31. So far I've not been able to find her coming in on a ship. Do you know if it was common for a widow to revert to her maiden name after death (or maybe divorce?)
One thing that is strange - he lived and worked in W1 London and was mxing in good circles - but he got married in Brentford registry by license - sounds odd.
Leslie died in 1901 - just before the census - so the house is empty then. But I have found that he made a will - I am going to see it whilst I am in London
Many thanks - again

[hetsgirl]

Did they give a birth parish for the wife?
Lesley

No -just the address 1 Claremont Villas, Acton and her fathers name and occupation (WILLIM GODFREY MOORE) FARMER

[hetsgirl]

Was George born in Melbourne Australia or melbourne England?
my sister and I have snippets of tales told by my Dad - one was that whilst he was out in the bush he was bitten by a snake and sat with his hand in a bucket for three days waiting for the regular doctors visit - this was why we weren't too surprised about the Melbourne Australia. Up till then we thought he was talking about Canada! (We were both quite young when he died)

[Lesley Robertson]

my sister and I have snippets of tales told by my Dad - one was that whilst he was out in the bush he was bitten by a snake and sat with his hand in a bucket for three days waiting for the regular doctors visit - this was why we weren't too surprised about the Melbourne Australia. Up till then we thought he was talking about Canada! (We were both quite young when he died)

You're sure he deserted from the Canadian forces, rahter than the Australians?
Lesley

[hetsgirl]

Images of George Ogilvie's attestation papers can be found at the Library & Archives website:

http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/cef/001042-100.01-e.php

Type his name into the search box. He's the Lt. The chase is on!

Adele

I have actually got his service record from Canada - and from there I can clearly see his mother ETHEL OGILVIE (but was really MARY ETHEL OGILVIE?) his first marriage and his desertion in 1919 (I think he wanted to stay in England with his wife (or maybe she refused to go with him to Canada!) Its amazing how much information came from this record (I've even got a list of his kit in 1919 whilst he was in hospital) It was £22 - but well worth it because it got the show on the road!
(And it was from this attestion paper that I confirmed that it was my Dad - his signature is unmistakeable - even with a different name)
I cannot tell you how amazed I am at the people in this forum - not just the enthusiasm - but the speed at which you are finding into.

[hetsgirl]

You're sure he deserted from the Canadian forces, rahter than the Australians?
Lesley
Very definitely - I've had his records from Canada!

[AdeleE]

Did they give a birth parish for the wife?
Lesley

On the 1891 census, Leslie Ogilvie declares himself married, yet there is no sign of a spouse nor a son George b1886 on the enumeration.

Leslie Ogilvie apparently married Ethel Moore in 1893.

Who is Leslie's spouse in 1891?

It might be an idea to order the birth certificate for George Norman Ogilvie that I referenced in an earlier post.

Adele

[hetsgirl]

Adele - you are an angel! I'll collect it whilst I'm in London - in case it doesn't come in time in the post!

[hetsgirl]

Adele,
Sorry to be a pain, I've obviously been blinded by what I've thought before - have you seen the 1881 census with him on 40 Weymouth Street as a lodger - do you think his marriage status is single or married?

[hetsgirl]

My father GEORGE OGILVIE born 1886? in Melbourne?, (According to his attestation papers) got married in 1918 to LOUISA DOROTHY BOUTALL and then went AWOL from the Canadian Force in England in 1919. Disappeared and then married my Mum HARRIET MARY ANN JEX in Dec 1923 under an assumed name of GEORGE LONG in Manchester UK.
On his various papers (before he changed his name!) he stated his father as LESLIE OGILVIE, Doctor (Born 1853 in Glasgow, lived 46 WELBECK STREET, London W1) and his uncle GEORGE OGILVIE Doctor (Born 1852 in Glasgow, lived 22 Welbeck Street, London W1) (both proven to have existed)
LESLIE (my grandfather as above) got married in 1893 - in theory 7 years after my Dad was born) to MARY ETHEL MOORE (born about 1861 - Father WILLIAM GODFREY MOORE - a farmer) I cannot find any earlier record of his marrying. My dad gave his mothers name as ETHEL OGILVIE on his army pay record.
In the obituaries for both my grandfather LESLIE OGILVIE and great uncle DR GEORGE OGILVIE - they spent upwards of two years in Paris and Vienna after leaving University. If thats' where LESLIE first got married - has anybody any idea how would I start to find anything!

[AdeleE]

You're not a pain at all. Let's solve this mystery..

In 1881, Leslie is definitely unmarried according to the enumeration sheet.
Recorded us "Um". The married persons on that sheet are "Mar".

After Leslie dies in Feb 1901, what happens to Ethel? Do you have her on the 1901 census?

Adele

[hetsgirl]

I can't find her on the census - but I know that Leslie wrote a will and that Mary Ethel was the executrix - I'll be getting a copy whilst in London - hoping that that will give names and address. The Gazette article also gives the solicitors address in London - so there are quite a few open roads to follow!
Added! I JUST LIED - I think I've found her on the 1901 census - living in Acton (where she originally lived before marriage) born in Caernarvon, Wales - I'll keep looking..... check her father etc!!!

[AdeleE]

Do you have a reference for Ethel Moore on the earlier census records (1871, 1881, 1891)?

Adele

[hetsgirl]

Do you have a reference for Ethel Moore on the earlier census records (1871, 1881, 1891)?

Adele
I'm just looking now..
(you're like a guiding angel....)

[AdeleE]

I think I've found her on the 1901 census - living in Acton (where she originally lived before marriage) born in Caernarvon, Wales - I'll keep looking..... check her father etc!!!

Looks like a good match! Now to find the three children including George I presume, who are probably boarding at school. Do you have names of the other two children?

Adele

[hetsgirl]

Looks like a good match! Now to find the three children including George I presume, who are probably boarding at school. Do you have names of the other two children?

Adele

I have a number of possibles. I'm sure I remember Dad talked about having two sisters who were taller than him and I seem remember MARGARET who was a pianist (My sister seems to think that his mother died when MARGARET was born) and the other name was ETHEL - but that could be us mixing it up with his mother (STEP or REAL?)
DR LESLIE endowed a cot at Paddington Green Childrens hospital prior to 1887 (From the TIMES archive) and I definitely remember being told about that - so I suppose one of them was a Charlotte - but maybe she died?

[AdeleE]

If I track George Norman Ogilvie, b1885 Marylebone, he is a London-born boarder in 1901 at the Rugby school in Rugby, Warwickshire.
He marries Madeleine Estelle Uzielli from Marylebone in 1910 in Marylebone. They are in the same household on the 1911 census in St George district, London.
I also see in the National Archives a conveyance in 1935 to George Norman Ogilvie of Harpenden, so I may be leading you off track with this fellow.

Adele

[hetsgirl]

If I track George Norman Ogilvie, b1885 Marylebone, he is a London-born boarder in 1901 at the Rugby school in Rugby, Warwickshire.
He marries Madeleine Estelle Uzielli from Marylebone in 1910 in Marylebone. They are in the same household on the 1911 census in St George district, London.
I also see in the National Archives a conveyance in 1935 to George Norman Ogilvie of Harpenden, so I may be leading you off track with this fellow.

Adele
Thanks Adele - This is a veritable minefield. I've not found MARY ETHEL MOORE anywhere yet - still looking

[AdeleE]

Well, I'll be darned...

Found him on a Canadian Border Crossing record.
George Ogilvie is on the SS Sol Duo in June 1913 in the port of Victoria British Columbia, aged 23 (=1890), born in Melbourne, Australia, going to Seattle, Washington. His arrival contact is friend E.R. Eddy. He is a coal worker, his nearest relative is sister Ethel Ogilvie in London England. He first came to Canada in Apr 1909 on board the ship Lake Erie, arriving in Halifax.

Next found him on Canadian Passenter lists on board the Lake Erie arriving in St John New Brunswick from Liverpool on Apr 16 1910. He is 18 (=1892) and born in Australia. His occupation is Sailor & he is going to Calgary Alberta where he intends to be a Surveyor. He is single & has never been in Canada before.

In the 1901 England census, I find a George Ogilvie, b1892 in Acton, boarding at the home of Katherine Lord at 8 Winchester Road in Hampstead. Also in the household is Ethel Ogilvie b1890 in Marylebone.

Hmmmm....

Adele

[hetsgirl]

Well, I'll be darned...

Found him on a Canadian Border Crossing record.
George Ogilvie is on the SS Sol Duo in June 1913 in the port of Victoria British Columbia, aged 23 (=1890), born in Melbourne, Australia, going to Seattle, Washington. His arrival contact is friend E.R. Eddy. He is a coal worker, his nearest relative is sister Ethel Ogilvie in London England. He first came to Canada in Apr 1909 on board the ship Lake Erie, arriving in Halifax.

Next found him on Canadian Passenter lists on board the Lake Erie arriving in St John New Brunswick from Liverpool on Apr 16 1910. He is 18 (=1892) and born in Australia. His occupation is Sailor & he is going to Calgary Alberta where he intends to be a Surveyor. He is single & has never been in Canada before.

In the 1901 England census, I find a George Ogilvie, b1892 in Acton, boarding at the home of Katherine Lord at 8 Winchester Road in Hampstead. Also in the household is Ethel Ogilvie b1890 in Marylebone.

Hmmmm....

Adele

You are a STAR!! I have so much to do... going mad... I could find the 1913 entry but not the others - are they only available in Canada.. many many thanks

[AdeleE]

Well this has been fun! And still no answers to who that George Ogilvie really is. I have the world subsc. to A*, so that's how I'm accessing this info. If you need the 1910 Lake Erie manifest, it's free but unindexed at Library & Archives Canada. You can drill down to the specific passenger list, then flip through the pages of that sailing till you see him.

http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/passenger/001045-100.01-e.php

Enter "Lake Erie" for ship & 1910 for arrival year. Then choose the list that arrives Saint John, N.B. - 1910-04-16. Then click view image. On my image, the sheet is page 40 of the manifest , so go to the end on the images >> and work backwards one page to their image 41 which is page 40 of the manifest. He's on line 4.

Cheers,
Adele

[hetsgirl]

Added... It will be very difficult to prove any of this - I have found so many items with age discrepancies - and I have always thought his birthday was 17/11/1886 - and thats what's on his attestion paper. I cannot find the births of George and Ethel found boarding in 1901... they say they were born in Acton and Marylebone (Both very much part of the family history) but I can't find them at the moment. His father LESLIE marked himself as married on the 1891 census - but I have found him marrying MARY ETHEL MOORE in 1893 - so I don't know whether they were children of an earlier marriage (therefore born Ogilvies) or children of the MARY ETHEL of 1893... this is quite a plot (You should see what happens to my Dad later - quite a love story.)

[AdeleE]

Hopefully his will should give some answers. If the 3 children are from a former marriage, I imagine that he would leave them provided for in the will, and we can hope that he will mention them by name.

Moore could be Mary Ethel's name from a previous marriage, although I imagine it says spinster on her marriage licence.

What a puzzle!

Adele

[hetsgirl]

Hopefully his will should give some answers. If the 3 children are from a former marriage, I imagine that he would leave them provided for in the will, and we can hope that he will mention them by name.

Moore could be Mary Ethel's name from a previous marriage, although I imagine it says spinster on her marriage licence.

What a puzzle!

Adele

On the marriage certificate she gives her father as William Godrey Moore (deceased) Farmer.

[AdeleE]

Who are the witnesses on the marriage certificate? And I wonder how the daughter of a farmer from Wales met a well educated doctor?

[AdeleE]

and I have always thought his birthday was 17/11/1886 - and thats what's on his attestion paper.

You may well find that his birthday is November 17, but I can see a pattern where he has made himself older, perhaps to gain better employment.
According to his attestation papers, he was previously in the 5th C G A (Canadian Garrison Artillery) for 2 1/2 years, and he isin the Canadian Expeditionary Force in 1915 as a Lt. supposedly aged 29. He probably wouldn't have gained this rank at his real age of 23 if he had said he was 20 when entering the CGA in 1912.

Adele

[hetsgirl]

Who are the witnesses on the marriage certificate? And I wonder how the daughter of a farmer from Wales met a well educated doctor?

The witnesses are a Chas A Carvill and Henry Huck - no family names there - and I haven't been able to find a definite match to either yet. Neither of them were Doctors though.

[hetsgirl]

You may well find that his birthday is November 17, but I can see a pattern where he has made himself older, perhaps to gain better employment.
According to his attestation papers, he was previously in the 5th C G A (Canadian Garrison Artillery) for 2 1/2 years, and he isin the Canadian Expeditionary Force in 1915 as a Lt. supposedly aged 29. He probably wouldn't have gained this rank at his real age of 23 if he had said he was 20 when entering the CGA in 1912.

Adele
The funny thing is - when he married his first wife LOUISA DOROTHY BOUTALL whilst he was in the army - he gave his age as 25 - and I would have thought that it would be more accurate because it was his mother Mary Ethel Ogilvie who was the witness. Then he gave his age as 37 when marrying my Mum (This on occasions sounds like two seperate people - but there are too many correct matches to our memories [and signatures etc] for that to be true)
I've never been to the NRO in London before - do you reckon I would be able to find things that I can't find on available internet indexes?

[hetsgirl]

And I wonder how the daughter of a farmer from Wales met a well educated doctor?

The house she was living in in Acton at the time of the marriage was in a good area - so on the surface it looks like they were of the 'landed; sort - either that or she had been Leslies 'friend' through the birth of three children before they got married!

[AdeleE]

The funny thing is - when he married his first wife LOUISA DOROTHY BOUTALL whilst he was in the army - he gave his age as 25 - and I would have thought that it would be more accurate because it was his mother Mary Ethel Ogilvie who was the witness.

Giving his age as 25 in 1918 equals a birth year of 1893 which does tally to this George we've found in the 1901 census at Katherine Lord's home and on board the Lake Erie in 1910. He ages rather quickly after that.

As to why he is listed as born in Acton on the 1901 census...I presume that Katherine Lord would have been giving the information to the enumerator. But what was her source of information and was it reliable?

In 1901, Emily & George are boarding with Katherine who is the proprietor of a girl's school. They are not boarding at the school per se, but rather with the proprietor. Why are they not with their mother? Which school would 9 year old George attend? Are there records somewhere of this school that would be helpful to you? Or school records for Emily?

And of course, who is the third child?

Adele

[hetsgirl]

In 1901, Emily & George are boarding with Katherine who is the proprietor of a girl's school. They are not boarding at the school per se, but rather with the proprietor. Why are they not with their mother? Which school would 9 year old George attend? Are there records somewhere of this school that would be helpful to you? Or school records for Emily?

And of course, who is the third child?

Adele

I can answer the why, I think. Their father Leslie died in February and I would think much was happening. Especially if they were children of an earlier marriage / liason... they would be incumbrances perhaps... or am I getting fanciful? I'll try to find which school she was propreitor of.

[AdeleE]

Do you have any idea why George Ogilvie used the name Long when marrying in 1923? Do you know if his mother Mary Ethel Moore/Ogilvie remarried after 1901? Do you know when she died?

Adele

[hetsgirl]

Do you have any idea why George Ogilvie used the name Long when marrying in 1923? Do you know if his mother Mary Ethel Moore/Ogilvie remarried after 1901? Do you know when she died?

Adele

I have no idea why he chose Long. Everytime I look at something I'm expecting to see it somewhere.

I don't think she remarried, because she was assigned pay until 1918 - in her own name in Acton.
I'm hoping to find out when she died when I go down to London the week after next.
I'll also be looking to see when she first came into Acton. And I hope the local newspapers might yeild some info!
There is a good directories link - and I have looked on those - but nothing conclusive because they are not complete http://www.historicaldirectories.org/hd/

[AdeleE]

On the 1901 census, the house at 46 Welbeck where Leslie Ogilvie had lived is uninhabited. If you're looking for it on A* it's the page on which Rose Chinery, born Crayford Kent age c1877 appears.

Did you see that in the Kelly's directories from the website you quoted that in 1893/94 a Mrs. Burns is living at 1 Claremont Villas. In 1889/90 a Robert Coles lives there.

I see a Mary Ethel Moore marries a William Arthur Long in 1905 in Croydon.

Bits & pieces. Don't know if/how they fit.

You mentioned a Charlotte (Ogilvie?) in an earlier post. Where did that name come from?

Adele

[hetsgirl]

You mentioned a Charlotte (Ogilvie?) in an earlier post. Where did that name come from?

Adele

In about 1886 Leslie endowed a cot in the Paddington Green Hospital. (This is one of the stories I remember from my childhood about my grandad - and have since found mentioned in the Times) The cot was called the Charlotte and I think that perhaps it was named after a child of his)

[hetsgirl]

I see a Mary Ethel Moore marries a William Arthur Long in 1905 in Croydon.

Adele

MARY ETHEL marrying a LONG????? this could be well worth getting a copy of and comparing it with the signatures on the earlier marriage - and this could help to explain why my Dad charged off to Canada.
(How on earth do you get so good at this? I never expected her to revert to her maiden name - but maybe this is the second time - I'm not going to be able to afford to eat when I get back from London!)
I have tried looking for people with Ogilvie as a middle name - in case they were illigitimate - no luck.
I have found a possible birth for the 9 year old you found in 1901 with Ethel - his name is George Thomas and he was born in Marylebone but I can't find an Ethel born in London - I have created a spread sheet with all the Ogilvies born in England from 1886 to 1893 - so I need to spread further - maybe they really were born in Australia after all.
I need to spend at least a few minutes taking stock....
And -T H A N K Y O U

[hetsgirl]

I see a Mary Ethel Moore marries a William Arthur Long in 1905 in Croydon.

Adele
How did you find out that she married a William Arthur Long? The indexes only give one side? (I have tried looking through to match numbers but have problems reading them)

[AdeleE]

I never expected her to revert to her maiden name - but maybe this is the second time

What do you mean by this being the second time she reverted to her maiden name? Did she revert to her maiden name on a previous occasion after marriage?


How did you find out that she married a William Arthur Long? The indexes only give one side?

In A*, if you bring up the marriage citation and click on the page #, in this case 677, it will usually bring up 4 names, 2 brides and 2 grooms. In this case, when I click on the page #, it only brought up William Arthur Long. Actually, I just tried it on the FreeBMD website and it works the same way there.

Now I've also matched them (Mary Ethel Long/William Arthur Long) on the 1911 census in Croydon. Age for Mary is incorrect, unless she is trying to make herself younger (b1873) for a younger husband (b1876). So it is a Mary Ethel Moore who married William Arthur Long, but not sure it's yours.

On the other hand, can you find Mary Ethel Ogilvie in 1911? I can't...What a great jigsaw puzzle!

Adele

[hetsgirl]

What do you mean by this being the second time she reverted to her maiden name? Did she revert to her maiden name on a previous occasion after marriage?
Adele
I was thinking that if she was the mother of the three children (from a previous marriage) then she had definitely reverted to her maiden name when marrying Leslie in 1893



On the other hand, can you find Mary Ethel Ogilvie in 1911? I can't...What a great jigsaw puzzle!

Adele
No I haven't been able to find her in 1911.
I'm looking for Mary Ethel Long in the directories for Acton - which was where Dads pay was assigned.

[hetsgirl]

If she married in 1905 to Walter Long, would she have witnessed my Dads marriage as MARY ETHEL OGILVIE in 1918? I don't know whether that would be normal?

[AdeleE]

If she married in 1905 to Walter Long, would she have witnessed my Dads marriage as MARY ETHEL OGILVIE in 1918? I don't know whether that would be normal?

No it probably wouldn't be normal. Is it definitely his mother as witness or could it be his sister Ethel?

Here's something possibly worth checking. I was looking for a sister of George named Margaret, as you had mentioned earlier he possibly had a sister Margaret who played the piano.

Although I can't find a birth (what else is new...), I do find a Margaret Ethel Ogilvie b1895, living at a boarding school in Oswestry, Shropshire on the 1911 census and she is born in Acton. Margaret Edith is a perfect name as those are the names of Leslie's mother & sister.

I found her by asking the 1911 search to give me all the Ogilvies born in Acton. Then I asked it to give me all the people living with this Margaret Edith Ogilvie. By tracking the adult in the household named Mickleburgh back to 1901, I can see that it is the Rilston School for Girls.

Then I follow this Margaret Edith Ogilvie to Brentford in 1919 where she marries Norman James Innes Strachan (middle names from his medal card).

Then on the Passenger List Camito July 1936 incoming to England, Norman J & Margaret E Strachan boarded at Puerto Cortes docking at Southampton going to The Croft, Fingringhoe, Colchester, Essex. He’s a 50 year old fruit grower. She’s 41.

Does anything here sound familiar?

Adele

[hetsgirl]

No it probably wouldn't be normal. Is it definitely his mother as witness or could it be his sister Ethel?

Here's something possibly worth checking. I was looking for a sister of George named Margaret, as you had mentioned earlier he possibly had a sister Margaret who played the piano.

Although I can't find a birth (what else is new...), I do find a Margaret Ethel Ogilvie b1895, living at a boarding school in Oswestry, Shropshire on the 1911 census and she is born in Acton. Margaret Edith is a perfect name as those are the names of Leslie's mother & sister.

I found her by asking the 1911 search to give me all the Ogilvies born in Acton. Then I asked it to give me all the people living with this Margaret Edith Ogilvie. By tracking the adult in the household named Mickleburgh back to 1901, I can see that it is the Rilston School for Girls.

Then I follow this Margaret Edith Ogilvie to Brentford in 1919 where she marries Norman James Innes Strachan (middle names from his medal card).

Then on the Passenger List Camito July 1936 incoming to England, Norman J & Margaret E Strachan boarded at Puerto Cortes docking at Southampton going to The Croft, Fingringhoe, Colchester, Essex. He’s a 50 year old fruit grower. She’s 41.

Does anything here sound familiar?

Adele
1) It could possibly have been his sister if she was known as Ethel but christened Mary Ethel.
2) Oned familiar thing is that my sister and I have memories of the names Margaret, Ethel and/or Edith.
3) My father used to leave my mum almost every summer and go fruit picking.
4) I get a feeling that they really were born in Australia.
4) Is your name really Poirot? or Holmes?

[hetsgirl]

Ethel and George, being born before the marriage in 1893 could have been her children by another marriage and this Margaret could have been a real Ogilvie. Maybe. (Perhaps Burns)as in 1 Claremont Villas?
My sister thought that Dads mum has died when Margaret was born - which means that 1) If he was born in 1892/3 then Margaret had to be later.
Apparently there is no way for me to find the records in Australia unless I'm there (or have bottomless pockets - which I don't!)
My sister remembers (Definitely) - that Dad had American (canadian?) newspapers delivered regularly because she read all the comic strips (parts) so he seems to have had close connections over there.
Maybe Australia was all part of the lie?

I'm lost..... I'm pinning a lot of hopes on the Will - I'll get that the first day in London and that might give us far more info - but I'm dreading the three children not being the ones I know of!

[AdeleE]

Lots of possibilities....

I see in the London Express:

7th Middlesex (London Scottish) Leslie Ogilvie, Gent., M.B., to be Acting Surgeon, dated 19 July 1884.

Would this involve travel? Perhaps there is something in his military records.

Free BMD records 2 children born to Norman Strachan & Margaret Ogilvie.

I wonder if pursuing info on this possible sister would shed some light on George?

Adele

[hetsgirl]

Lots of possibilities....

I see in the London Express:

7th Middlesex (London Scottish) Leslie Ogilvie, Gent., M.B., to be Acting Surgeon, dated 19 July 1884.

Would this involve travel? Perhaps there is something in his military records.

Free BMD records 2 children born to Norman Strachan & Margaret Ogilvie.

I wonder if pursuing info on this possible sister would shed some light on George?

Adele

I am currently waiting for a reply from the 7th - they have quite a long backlog apparently. Funny pair of brothers these - they both joined the 7th together, both got promoted together and both resigned together in 1893 - and this is funny - it appears that they both got married in 1893 - even though Leslie appeared to already be married in 1891 (though I can't find George marriage to Helen Hay from India - have tried British Library as well)
I have thought that I would chase up the Margaret Ogilvie end - that would be wonderful if that was where he disappeared every year - I'm just trying to decide whether I should wait until the will - in case everything is shattered!
What do you think?

[AdeleE]

Helen Hay was actually Helen Hay Houston, daughter of John Houston, of the Indian Medical Service and Isabella Mitchell. They probably married in Scotland where she was living in 1891.Note that the mother of Drs Leslie & George was Margaret Mitchell, but haven't followed that up yet.

So George marries into another medical family, so why does Leslie marry the daughter of a farmer?

I think I've just found a lead, & I don't know why I didn't spot it before.

In the 1881 census, there is a Mary Moore, born 1863 Caernarvonshire living as a servant in the household of Henry Talbot Rathborne, a Surgeon Royal College of Edinburgh in Westoe, South Shields, Durham (Class RG11/Piece 5018/Folio 30/ Page 54).

Very exciting! I'm going to see where this leads....

Adele

As for following trails prior to seeing the will, I think you should collect as much data as possible, without contacting possible living descendants just yet.

[hetsgirl]

Helen Hay was actually Helen Hay Houston, daughter of John Houston, of the Indian Medical Service and Isabella Mitchell. They probably married in Scotland where she was living in 1891.Note that the mother of Drs Leslie & George was Margaret Mitchell, but haven't followed that up yet.

.
I have got the marriage certificate for George marrying Helen Hay Houston - but Leslie wasn't shown as a witness. And they are marked as cousins - so they were both the grandchildren of Elizabeth Mitchell.

[hetsgirl]

I see a Mary Ethel Moore marries a William Arthur Long in 1905 in Croydon.

Adele

I've found these two on the 1911 census - and also found her in the earlier census's - and the age discrepancy and the name of her father means that this cannot be our Mary Ethel Moore - bummer! (This would have been a great answer!)

[hetsgirl]

Although I can't find a birth (what else is new...), I do find a Margaret Ethel Ogilvie b1895, living at a boarding school in Oswestry, Shropshire on the 1911 census and she is born in Acton. Margaret Edith is a perfect name as those are the names of Leslie's mother & sister.

I found her by asking the 1911 search to give me all the Ogilvies born in Acton. Then I asked it to give me all the people living with this Margaret Edith Ogilvie. By tracking the adult in the household named Mickleburgh back to 1901, I can see that it is the Rilston School for Girls.

Then I follow this Margaret Edith Ogilvie to Brentford in 1919 where she marries Norman James Innes Strachan (middle names from his medal card).

Then on the Passenger List Camito July 1936 incoming to England, Norman J & Margaret E Strachan boarded at Puerto Cortes docking at Southampton going to The Croft, Fingringhoe, Colchester, Essex. He’s a 50 year old fruit grower. She’s 41.

Does anything here sound familiar?

Adele

I have now got a copy of the marriage certificate for this Margaret and IT IS my aunt.
Date 7th October 1919 - at St Dunstans Church, East Acton by banns
Margaret Edith Ogilvie, 24, Spinster, 37 Emanuel Avenue, Leslie Ogilvie, Physician
Norman James Strachan,33,Bachelor, Tea Planter, Southdown Lodge, Spencer Road, Eastbourne, James Henry Strachen (ret) Merchant
Witnessed: Stanley E T Bell, Stanley Blount.

Unfortunately the wills of both Grandfather and Great Uncle were of no help - they left everything to their wifes. although there is a little bit about a cousin in Great Uncle Georges will.

Off we go again!|jumphappy

[hetsgirl]

I have now got a copy of the marriage certificate for this Margaret and IT IS my aunt.
Date 7th October 1919 - at St Dunstans Church, East Acton by banns
Margaret Edith Ogilvie, 24, Spinster, 37 Emanuel Avenue, Leslie Ogilvie, Physician
Norman James Strachan,33,Bachelor, Tea Planter, Southdown Lodge, Spencer Road, Eastbourne, James Henry Strachen (ret) Merchant
Witnessed: Stanley E T Bell, Stanley Blount.

Unfortunately the wills of both Grandfather and Great Uncle were of no help - they left everything to their wifes. although there is a little bit about a cousin in Great Uncle Georges will.

Off we go again!|jumphappy

They had two children - Joan I M at Eastbourne in 1920 and Kenneth J I born 1922 - and I can't find Joan - but it looks like Kenneth died at the age of 4

[AdeleE]

Congratulations! Piece by piece, it will come together. Can you tell us about the cousin mentioned in Uncle George's will?
Adele

[hetsgirl]

Congratulations! Piece by piece, it will come together. Can you tell us about the cousin mentioned in Uncle George's will?
Adele

He appointed his cousin Dr Alexander Cruikshank Houston as stand in executor in case Helen died, and gave an annuity of £10 per year to his cousin Edith Mitchell of 32 Fordwych Road, Brondesbury, London (spinster). In the event of Helens death, his estate was to pass equally to Cousin Elizabeth Hewetson, Alexander Cruikshank Houston and Arthur Manson Houston.

[hetsgirl]

I would like to thank you all- last week I returned from Worthing where I met the daughter in law of Margaret Edith Ogilvie (later Strachan). She remembers being told about a brother who disappeared, never to be heard of again - and that there was another sister Ethel, who went to live in the States - that makes sense of the American papers Dad used to receive. She was called Weinstein - and so far I've been unable to trace her but I have found a likely person who married a McMullen and lived in Sandiego. If I can trace them I just might get to the bottom of this yet. Many Many thanks everyone (Incidentally - the sad thing - neither of Margarets children had children - so there hasn't been any handing down of information.)