William Riley Lee....... HElp

[JamieG1782]

Hi,

Looking for any information on William Riley Lee, All I know is he married Alice Ann Cotsford b1875 - 1954 & had 5 children, Selina Alice b1898 - d1970 married Frank H Jeffries, Rhoda b1899 Ambrose Isaac b1901,Rose A Lee b1913,James Lee b1917

I Know its not much info to go on, as far as I know they were always in the Kensington area at least after they married

Thanks In Advance For Any Help

(William's Father May Of Been Called Riley, But Not Certain)

[kcapes]

Hello
Do you have them at Admiral Place Kensington, let me know.
Kim

[christanel]

Hello
Do you have them at Admiral Place Kensington, let me know.
Kim

Hi Kim
yes Jamie has them in 1901 in another thread on this family.
http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39933

I really do think you should buy the marriage certificate for William and Alice, Jamie. I have given you the reference before. This will give his father's name and occupation and shorten the list of possibles.
Christina.

[JamieG1782]

Hi Christina & Kim

Christina that is exactly what I'm going to do, And thanks for all your help (read your email after posting this thread)

Kim,

Yes I do 14 admiral place, do you have ties there? If so can you let me know what ties etc?


thanks

Jamie

[christanel]

Hi Christina & Kim

Christina that is exactly what I'm going to do, And thanks for all your help (read your email after posting this thread)

thanks

Jamie

Let us know what the certificate says Jamie when you get it. We like to know how others are going in knocking down their brick walls.
Christina

[JamieG1782]

So I brought the certificate, And still no clue!! fathers name not there!! A name with a line through it (could be Joanne??) and underneath that the number 16?????

So none the wiser and can't find him on the BMD to get his birth certificate

Any Help??

[christanel]

So I brought the certificate, And still no clue!! fathers name not there!! A name with a line through it (could be Joanne??) and underneath that the number 16?????

So none the wiser and can't find him on the BMD to get his birth certificate

Any Help??

Oh bother!!! Do you know how to post an image on here Jamie? If you are game to try there are instruction here, then we could all take a look and give opinions on what the crossings out say
http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=40612

Or tell us everything that is on the certificate - witnesses, addresses, the lot. Or you could scan it and just send to me. But it is looking as if William may be illegitimate. Oh bother!!!
Also when I was revisiting this post and your other I noticed something I hadn't previously. William and Alice's children. Selina b 1898, Rhoda 1899, Ambrose Isaac 1901 then a break of 12 years before the births of Rose Alice 1913 and James Lee 1917.
I am going to sit quietly in a corner and familiarise myself with the ins and outs of all this.
Christina

[christanel]

Well I have spent ages trawling the earlier census and still no nearer to being definite about having found your William.How the 1891 census is interesting re Alice Cotsford's family.
They are in the A B workhouse Mary Place Kensington (put that in to google for info on it) but Alice isn't with them.
1891 Census RG12 piece 23 folio 47 page 4
William Cotsford 46 general labourer born St. Lukes London
Catherine 40 laundress b Hurlington Middlesex
William son 18 woodcutter
John 13 scholar
Mary Ann 11 scholar
Thomas 8 scholar
Sarah 5 .All children born Kensington

1881 census RG11 piece 33 folio 79 page 27
family transcribed as Gotsford
William 36 coal porter
Catherine 30 laundress
William 9,
Ann 6 (this has to be Alice, age is correct)
John 3,
Mary A 1
All birth places as 1891.
Now the interesting thing is that at the top of the same page is a William Lee but his age is 19 and occupation carpenter. Maybe this is he and he told a couple of porkies. Anyway something to keep in mind.
Christina

[christanel]

Also when I was revisiting this post and your other I noticed something I hadn't previously. William and Alice's children. Selina b 1898, Rhoda 1899, Ambrose Isaac 1901 then a break of 12 years before the births of Rose Alice 1913 and James Lee 1917.
Christina
Ok I have found out why the gap in children. I had a few units left and went in to the 1911 census for a transcript of the Lee family.
Now I know you don't need all of this number but I don't know which bits to leave out so you get all of them.
RG14 PN174 RG78 PN6 RD2 SD3 ED10
55 Treverton Street Kensington North
William Lee married 14 years dealer and flower seller
Alice 36 same occupation
Selina dau 14 just left school
Rhoda dau 12 school
Ambrose son 9 school
William son 7
Reuben son 7 months
All born Kensington. A transcript doesn't give details re children who have died so ther may have been others.
Christina

[JamieG1782]

This is it, thanks for the extra info!! Do you think it would be worth trying to find his birth certificate and hope for info in the Fathers name box?

If [I]ANYONE can shed more light on this it would be very much appreciated!!

And one again, Thanks so much for your help Christina

[JamieG1782]

Also I found this.......

Warwick Place, St Mary Abbott Kensington London 1861 Census
Known as the Potteries (Visited by George Borrow)
Bendigo Hearn 1824 Chair Bottomer Herefordshire
Mary Hearn 1825 Chiswick Mx
Matilda Hearn 1856 Notting Hill
Joseph Hearn 1859 Notting Hill
General Hearn 1860 Notting Hill
*
Riley Lee 28 Brazier London
Rebecca Lee 27 London
John Lee 10 ?
Selene Lee 1851 Kent
Rhoda Lee 1854 Kent
Michael Lee 1857 Kent

Could William's Dad be Riley? & Thats where he gets his middle name?? It could make sense, also the pass down of the names Selene (Selina) & Rhoda again would make sense, at least to me anyway

But its just guesswork |banghead|..........

[christanel]

Also I found this.......

Warwick Place, St Mary Abbott Kensington London 1861 Census
Known as the Potteries (Visited by George Borrow)
Bendigo Hearn 1824 Chair Bottomer Herefordshire
Mary Hearn 1825 Chiswick Mx
Matilda Hearn 1856 Notting Hill
Joseph Hearn 1859 Notting Hill
General Hearn 1860 Notting Hill
*
Riley Lee 28 Brazier London
Rebecca Lee 27 London
John Lee 10 ?
Selene Lee 1851 Kent
Rhoda Lee 1854 Kent
Michael Lee 1857 Kent

Could William's Dad be Riley? & Thats where he gets his middle name?? It could make sense, also the pass down of the names Selene (Selina) & Rhoda again would make sense, at least to me anyway

But its just guesswork |banghead|..........

Oh Jamie this does look very promising doesn't it? Have you found them in later censuses? I'll take a look also. If we can find a certificate that is in the right time frame and area that is the only way to go.
The certificate is very clear isn't it but I still can't make out what was crossed out. However I think the 16 may be a number used by the registrar to indicate what type of mistake was made. I've put that badly but you know what I mean?
No father's name and occupation usually indicates illegitimacy but the middle name Riley is looking good as mother's did this sometimes. I wish my great great grandmother had with her 5 illegitimate kids.
I'll go take a look at the records.
Christina

[JamieG1782]

Oh Jamie this does look very promising doesn't it? Have you found them in later censuses? I'll take a look also. If we can find a certificate that is in the right time frame and area that is the only way to go.
The certificate is very clear isn't it but I still can't make out what was crossed out. However I think the 16 may be a number used by the registrar to indicate what type of mistake was made. I've put that badly but you know what I mean?
No father's name and occupation usually indicates illegitimacy but the middle name Riley is looking good as mother's did this sometimes. I wish my great great grandmother had with her 5 illegitimate kids.
I'll go take a look at the records.
Christina

No haven't found them yet on any other census, but i'm new to all this so still trying to work it all out as well as finding the information..

Thats what I thought although Rhoda & Selene/Selina may of been quite common names in romany families and in the general public the name Riley at that time doesn't seem to be so popular...........Or maybe I'm just hoping for a lead anyway i can find one!! HA HA

[christanel]

No haven't found them yet on any other census, but i'm new to all this so still trying to work it all out as well as finding the information..

Thats what I thought although Rhoda & Selene/Selina may of been quite common names in romany families and in the general public the name Riley at that time doesn't seem to be so popular...........Or maybe I'm just hoping for a lead anyway i can find one!! HA HA

Well I didn't have any luck finding any of them on the 1871 census before I had to abandon it to keeep an appointment.
You will be surprised at how many Selana's and Rhoda's there are in the country.
I was using ancestry and you can just put in a first name without any surname but it does help to narrow the list down by putting in a birth date. But no luck with any of them, it seems very unlikely that the transcriber or enumerator got the simple surname Lee wrong. But then again I haven't found a family with that looks anywhere near promising as yet. Will have to go on Freebmd to look for a possible birth for William Riley also.
Looking at the Riley Lee family again in 1861 it may be that Wiiliam's mother is part of this family structure and she named William after a brother or uncle or cousin. So maybe we have to find where they come together.
Christina

[ChristineR]

This is it, thanks for the extra info!! Do you think it would be worth trying to find his birth certificate and hope for info in the Fathers name box?

If [I]ANYONE can shed more light on this it would be very much appreciated!!

And one again, Thanks so much for your help Christina

Sorry Jamie, had to remove the certificate image - you may post a link to photobucket or just upload the relevant section of the certificate to the forum. GRO strictly forbids posting images of whole certificates on the internet in their copyright.

[JamieG1782]

http://i626.photobucket.com/albums/tt343/jamieg1782/williamdad.jpg

There you go thats the bit that is needed, BUT..........

Spoke to my Great Aunt today just in passing that I had Started researching the family, She told me with no prompting or mention from me that the Dads name was Riley, AND she has a picture of him with Rueben and His Mum!!!!! What Luck!! So I was on the right track and now have confirmation!

She's going to write down for me everything she can remember and sort out any certificates and photos she has

[JamieG1782]

Could someone do an ancestry lookup for me this is what it says in the search

1851 England Census
Census & Voter Lists

Name: Riley Lee
Age: 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1826
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England
Household schedule number: 77

Name: Riley Lee
Birth: abt 1826 - location
Residence: 1851 - city, Middlesex, England


Thanks I will get round to signing up when I have the money, hopefully end of month!!!!

[christanel]

1851 census HO107 piece 1542 folio 560 page 14
Bethnall green St Philips Tower Hamlets.
Riley Lee Head unmarried 25 skewer maker (Iron) born Tottenham
Roseanna Hearne unmarried 23 skewer maker born Harding Hertfordshire
Selina Lee daughter 2 born Hadley Kent.

That name Hearne I seem to recall seeing somewhere before in relation to the Lees.
I will wait to see what you get from your aunt before I go looking for more. How great to have someone with inside knowledge.
Still can't make out what the crossed out word is. Anybody else having a go?
Christina

[christanel]

Also I found this.......

Warwick Place, St Mary Abbott Kensington London 1861 Census
Known as the Potteries (Visited by George Borrow)
Bendigo Hearn 1824 Chair Bottomer Herefordshire
Mary Hearn 1825 Chiswick Mx
Matilda Hearn 1856 Notting Hill
Joseph Hearn 1859 Notting Hill
General Hearn 1860 Notting Hill
*
Riley Lee 28 Brazier London
Rebecca Lee 27 London
John Lee 10 ?
Selene Lee 1851 Kent
Rhoda Lee 1854 Kent
Michael Lee 1857 Kent

Could William's Dad be Riley? & Thats where he gets his middle name?? It could make sense, also the pass down of the names Selene (Selina) & Rhoda again would make sense, at least to me anyway

But its just guesswork |banghead|..........

Doh!!! Of course I did - on your posting of the 1861 census. So is Roseanna (from 1851 census) their daughter? Only trouble with this theory is that both Riley and Rebecca/Roseann have only aged 3/4 years between censuses. Back to the drawing board.
In England research is done when it is too cold, wet and windy to go out. Here it is too hot to go outside so research it is.
No she can't be their daughter because Bendigo is only 36. Sister maybe?
Christina

[ChristineR]

Still can't make out what the crossed out word is. Anybody else having a go?

At first glance I thought that it might have been Isaac, but it didn't look like that enlarged. I also wonder if the 16 is actually a 'U' - perhaps short for 'unknown' . There is a Latin word meaning illegitimate that I cannot recall at the moment, but then why is it crossed out.

[christanel]

At first glance I thought that it might have been Isaac, but it didn't look like that enlarged. I also wonder if the 16 is actually a 'U' - perhaps short for 'unknown' . There is a Latin word meaning illegitimate that I cannot recall at the moment, but then why is it crossed out.

I followed your suggestion ChristineR and went in to google for a Latin/English translation and all of these came up. None of which look like the first letter of the word on the certificate.
nothus, notha, nothum ADJ [XXXDX]
illegitimate (known father); cross-bred, mixed, mongrel; false, spurious;

mamzer, (gen.), mamzeris ADJ [EEXFS]
bastard, illegitimate;

manzer, (gen.), manzeris ADJ [EEQFS]
bastard, illegitimate; (Hebrew);

spurius, spurii N (2nd) M 2 1 M [XXXEO]
bastard, son of an unknown father; illegitimate child, spurious child;

spurius, spuria, spurium ADJ [XXXES]
spurious, false; of illegitimate/irregular/out of wedlock birth;

manzerinus, manzerini N (2nd) C 2 1 C [EEXFM]
bastard, one of illegitimate birth; mongrel (Latham); (Hebrew);

I cannot find Riley and Rebecca or Selina and Rhoda on the 1871 census. In 1881 I did find a Riley Lee age 60 born Middlesex in 1881 in Red Cross Street Kensington along with many boarders. He is a general labourer.
So goodness only knows where they are. I have tried many combinations of names, places, ages etc etc but .....
We are supposed to be going backwards in time so I'll give the 1841 another go.
Christina

[JamieG1782]

been a long time but found this..

1851 Census Chiswick Middlesex * 4 John place*
Riley lovell..........38 b 1813 Hampstead -Skewer maker
Caroline..............28 b 1823 Carshalton Surrey
John..................9 b 1842 Shoreditch
Alfred................7 b 1844 Islington
William Riley....9mths b 1851 Bethnal Green

So would appear that william rileys dad was Riley Lovel (lovell) and his mother was caroline lee??

[christanel]

Hello JamieG1782
Marriages on FreeBMD on the same page
Riley Lovell and Caroline Lee Registration District Bethnal Green March 1/4 1864 vol 1c page 498
So they married quite a few years after the births of their children.

[JamieG1782]

just noticed though (to my disappointment)

William Riley....9mths b 1851 Bethnal Green
and I have william Riley born in 1875 (but only from the 1901 census, so could this still be him?)

Also appears again


1861 Census Chiswick Middlesex *4 Johns place*
Riley Lovel..........48 b 1813 Surrey -labour
Caroline.............38 b 1823 Surrey
Wiliam...............11 b 1850 Chiswick
Constance............ 6 b 1855 Chiswick
Laurie................4 b 1857 Chiswick
George H..............2 b 1859 Chiswick

but gon in the next 2


Also found this
1841 Census Bethnal Green Hackney Rd Ossulstone
Rilea Lovel...........25 b 1816 Middlesex -Cutler
Caroline Lee..........20 b 1821 Middlesex - (parents Joseph b 1797 & Susan Lee)
Pila lee..............15 b 1826 Middleex (M) <- Riley??

[JamieG1782]

also I'm in contact with the grand daughter of william riley and waiting to hear if she knows williams parents names but seem to be finally making some progress..

[JamieG1782]

William Riley b 27th June.....C 14th July 1850 - St Philip Bethnal Green Tower Hamlets -Brazier

[christanel]

1871 RG10/1320/74/17
John's Place Chiswick
Riley Lovel 50 Pedlar born Hampstead
Caroline 48 Hawker Carshalton Surrey
Constance 16 hawker Turham? Green
Laura M 14 Hawker
George 12 scholar

[JamieG1782]

sorry for ALL the posts just checked my info on 1901 census again and it says abt 1845 so 1850 fits!!

Looks like I may of finally found his father!!

[JamieG1782]

25 years difference seems a long shot, even for a census taker guessing??

[JamieG1782]

ignore post 28 ... wrong lee.... must be tired

[christanel]

Death
Caroline Lovell June 1/4 1885 age 62 Brentford Vol 3a page 62

1891 RG12/1034/15/25
KILEIF!! Lovell Widower 79 skewer maker born Hampstead ( I have put in a correction to FMP)
John Lovell grandson 14 no occupation born Chiswick.

[JamieG1782]

but do you not think the difference between b.1875 (1901 census) and b.1850 (1851/1861 Census) is to much for it to be him?

[christanel]

William Riley b 27th June.....C 14th July 1850 - St Philip Bethnal Green Tower Hamlets -Brazier
This birth fits in better with parents in your post #11.
I have to take a break from this to take son to airport but then I am going to re-read it all because I need to see what is what. The 1911 census gives a birth for William of 1874 so the one with Caroline and Riley Lovell born 1850 can't be him. That is our starting point.

[JamieG1782]

In that case I'm back to my original idea of it being

Riley Lee

Birth 15 May 1826 in Tottenham, Middlesex, England
Death Dec 1887

But no evidence so far to suggest I'm right other than the dates seeming about right, sibling names being passed down (Selina, Rhoda) and that Williams middle name is Riley

been told by my nan & great aunt that they think that william riley's dad may of been called riley...

thanks for all your help..

[christanel]

Going through all the bits and pieces and having found more, just to add to the confusion, it has occurred to me that Riley Lee may not have been William Riley Lees father but his grandfather. Either Rhoda or Selena - (parents Riley and Rebecca 1861 RG9/18/122/84) may have been his mother which would explain the crossing out on William R's marriage cert to Alice Ann post #16.
(On that post you also have a John aged 10 who is not on the original image.)
It also occurred to me that William Riley Lee only used the name Riley on his marriage cert and on the 1911 census so his birth was quite possibly registered as William Lee. he may have adopted the name Riley in honour of his father/grandfather but we cannot place them together in any census.
I will collate all the census and BMD's I have collected off line and then post to see what you make of it.

[JamieG1782]

going on your suggestion that selina or rhoda could be the parent, & found this

Name: William Lee
Record Type: Baptism
Date: 8 Nov 1874
Father's Name: Isaac William Lee
Mother's Name: Rhoda Lee
Parish: St James Norlands, Kensington
Borough: Kensington and Chelsea
County: Middlesex

around the right date, rhoda as parent... will check some census info

[christanel]

1851 HO107/1542/560/14
Nelson Street Bethnal Green Tower Hamlets
Riley Lee 25 (1826) unmarried Skewer maker (Iron) born Tottenham
Roseanna Hearne unmarried 23 (1828) born Harding Hertfordshire
Selina Lee dau 2 (1849) born Hadley Kent
1861 RG9/18/122/84
Warwick Place Kensington Town
Riley Lee 28 (1833) Brazier born London
Rebecca 27 (1834) London
Selena 10 (1851) Kent
Rhoda 7 (1854) Kent
Michael 4 (1857) Kent

A Rebecca Lee death registered June ¼ 1864 Hackney 1b page 272. There are others but this seems the most likely because of Riley's remarriage in 1876.
Riley Lee married Susan Howard 3 Feb 1868 at Saint James Bethnal Green

1871 RG10/475/52/32
11 Margaret Street Bethnal Green
Riley Lee 45 (1826) Basket maker Born Tottenham
Susan Lee 49 born Norton Holgate City
Rhoda 18 (1853) dau born Nottinfall(?)
Michael 16 basket maker born Adlam Kent
Elizabeth Howard 13 dau-in-law (used to mean step daughter) born Bethnall Green
Baptisms
Rhoda Lee 1853 Shoreditch parents Riley and Susannah
Ambrose Isaac Lee 1901 Kensington parents William Riley and Alice Ann
William Riley Lee 1904 Kensington parents William Riley and Alice Ann (One of their children who died?)
Deaths
Riley Lee b 1813 died 1887 Kensington
This date doesn't match with the Riley Lee ages in 1851 and 1861. Also Riley has only aged 3 years between 1851 and 1861. Could this be because he married for a second time and he lowered his age to be closer to his new brides?
He is back to his 1826 birth date in the 1871 census.

I can't find a death for Roseanna Hearne or a marriage to Rebecca. I don't think they are the same person as Roseanne was born Hertfordshire.

There is no marriage of an Isaac William Lee to Rhoda Lee but on the same page FreeBMD there are an Isaac Williams and a Rhoda Lee June ¼ 1875 Kensington vol 1a page 48

A death for a Rhoda Williams Dec ¼ 1889 age 38 Kensington vol 1a page 70.
A marriage for Isaac William Lee to Elizabeth Jane Dilloway sept ¼ 1895 Vol 1c page 130.

BUT so far I can't find Rhoda or Isaac or William the son on the 1881 census or Isaac and William on the 1891.
Just a coincidense or...
1901 census William R, Alice, Selina and Rhoda. On the same page is a bendigo hearne and family born Herefordshire which is where Roseanne Hearne first 'wife' of Riley Lee 1826 was born.

[JamieG1782]

Just a coincidense or...
1901 census William R, Alice, Selina and Rhoda. On the same page is a bendigo hearne and family born Herefordshire which is where Roseanne Hearne first 'wife' of Riley Lee 1826 was born.


so this could be him? is there an age on the census? he should of been around 26ish.... but still no clue who his parents are, or a birth record.. to be able to see on the document what parents are listed!!:wacko:

[christanel]

I will be quite happy for anyone reading this thread to set me straight on anything.
Hi Jamie
Unfortunately no we are still no nearer to knowing definitely who the parents are of the William Riley Lee who married Alice Ann Cotsford. However becasue William adopted the name Riley as a middle name and gave the names Selena and Rhoda to his daughters I do think we can tie him in with Riley Lee born 1826.
There is also that tie of the Hearne family in 1841 and 1911. I am going to take a look at the hearnes to see if it helps with finding William R in 1881 and 1891. There are a couple of adopted William Lee and William Williams plus two in seperate Barnardos Homes.
You have found a very interesting baptism for a William Lee in Nov 1874 parents Rhoda and Isaac. You could ask the GRO to search for the birth with these parents names. it isn't going to tell you much more than his birthdate though, although it may sort out the correct surname for Isaac.
There is the marriage reg of Isaac Williams and a Rhoda Lee June ¼ 1875 Kensington vol 1a page 48
This could set us straight on who this Rhoda's father is (Riley?) and also whether the baptismal record of young William incorrectly recorded his father Isaac as a Lee instead of Williams.
Can't find, in 1841 census, Riley Lee born 1826 father of Selena, Rhoda and Michael. Did he adopt the name Riley too?
Haven't looked in 1841 census for Roseanne Hearne born 1828 mother of Selena
Haven't found William Lee/Williams as a definite in 1881 and 1891 censuses
Haven't followed Michael Lee born 1857 through the censuses.

[JamieG1782]

Found this!!

DUKE LEES SON SOLOMAN HE HAD A SON JOSEPH LEE b 1797 WHO HAD II CHILDREN :
JOHN..........1819
CAROLINE .....1823 * In Census below married Riley Lovell*
RODA,.........1824
RILEY ........1826
KEZIAH .......1828
SELINA....... 1831
MATHIAS...... 1833 *Is matthew in Census Below*
SAMPSON,......1835
JAMES,........1837
JOSEPH,.......1840
EDWARD .......1843
********************************************

1841 Census Bethnal Green Hackney Rd Ossulstone
Rilea Lovel...........25 b 1816 Middlesex -Cutler
Caroline Lee..........20 b 1821 Middlesex - (parents Joseph b 1797 & Susan Lee)
Pila lee..............15 b 1826 Middleex (M) Could this be Riley?? Dates match... and means he's living with his sister Caroline and doesn't appear in 1851,1861,1871 with them

1851 Census Bethnal Green St Philip
Riley Lee.................25 b 1826 Tottenham Middlesex -Skewer Maker ( Son of Jospeh Lee b 1797)
Rosanna Hearne............23 b 1828 Harding Herefordshire
Selina Lee.................1 b 1850 Hadley Kent





And thats what I've got so far thought if i set it out it might make it easier .... for me at least ha ha


1861 Census Kensingotn St Mary Abbott Middlesex
Bendingo Hearne.............37 b 1824 Herefordshire – Chair bottomer
Mary........................36 b 1825 Chiswick Middlesex
Matilda......................5 b 1856 Notting Hill
Joseph.......................2 b 1859 Notting Hill
General (F)...............1 wk b 1861 Notting Hill
+
Riley Lee.........................28 b 1833 London – Brazier
Rebecca...........................27 b 1834 London
Selene............................10 b 1851 Kent
Rhoda..............................7 b 1854 Kent
Michel.............................4 b 1857 Kent

Riley Lee b 1826 married Susan Howard in 1868 Jan/Feb/Mar Bethnal Green London 1c 427

1871 Census Bethnal Green Hackney Rd London * 11 Margaret Terrace*
Rylee Lee...................45 b 1826 Totterham -Bakset maker
Susan.......................49 b 1822 Norton Folgate
Rodia.......................18 b 1853 Nottinghamshire - should be rhoda
Michel......................16 b 1855 Kent
Elizabeth Howard............13 b 1858 Bethnal Green - daughter in law#


1881 Census Southwark St George Martyr Borough Rd London * Red Cross Street
Riley Lee..................... 60 b 1821 Middlesex - General labour -lodgings

[JamieG1782]

found this as well

note.. Sampson's Alfreds father was joseph lee, Riley Lee's brother...

Samson Alfred & Jane Sophia Lee Children
Rosina Rebekah Lee 1869 19th April -born March 17th - St Matthias Bethnal Green Tower Hamlets /Hawker
(Rosanna/Rebecca Mystery???)
Rhoda Lee..........1879 23rd March - St Philip Bethnal Green Tower Hamlets /Hawker
Caroline Lee.......1871 12th July - born June 11th St James the Great Bethnal Green Tower Hamlets /Hawker
Selina Lee.........1876 25th June -born May 5th St James Great Bethnal Green Tower Hamlets /Hawker
Sarah Jane Lee.....1877 30th Sept- born Sept 15th St James Great Bethnal Green Tower Hamlets /Hawker
Rosina Lee.........1883 13th Jan St Philip Bethnal Green Tower Hamlets / Basket maker
Susan Lee..........1884 1st June -aged 61/2 yrs - St Philip Bethnal Green /Basket maker

thought this was interesting because of the names being passed down agin and the Rosina Rebekah reference...

[christanel]

Good finds Jamie
So Caroline born 1823 and Riley Lee born 1826 are brother and sister, children of Joseph Lee born 1798.
So where is Riley Lee in 1841? And where is William Riley Lee in 1881 and 1891? Maybe with rellies?

Caroline and Riley Lovells marriage we have on FreeBMD but it is also in the Parish records. 22 Feb 1864 Riley Lovell, batchelor, father Hezekiah Lovell. Can't read his occupation
Caroline Lee spinster, father Joseph Lee labourer Witnesses George Chambers and Ellen Prescott.
I wonder why they waited so long to get married as they had been together since at least 1841.

[JamieG1782]

.
So where is Riley Lee in 1841?

1841 Census Bethnal Green Hackney Rd Ossulstone
Rilea Lovel...........25 b 1816 Middlesex -Cutler
Caroline Lee..........20 b 1821 Middlesex - (parents Joseph b 1797 & Susan Lee)
Pila lee..............15 b 1826 Middleex (M) Could this be Riley?? Dates match... and means he's living with his sister Caroline and doesn't appear in 1851,1861,1871 with them

[christanel]

1841 Census Bethnal Green Hackney Rd Ossulstone
Rilea Lovel...........25 b 1816 Middlesex -Cutler
Caroline Lee..........20 b 1821 Middlesex - (parents Joseph b 1797 & Susan Lee)
Pila lee..............15 b 1826 Middleex (M) Could this be Riley?? Dates match... and means he's living with his sister Caroline and doesn't appear in 1851,1861,1871 with them

Bingo!!! I looked and looked at the original but couldn't see the wood for the trees.
You are well on your way Jamie.

[JamieG1782]

Had a closer look at the "isaac william lee and rhoda lee christening of william lee" and found this

http://i626.photobucket.com/albums/tt343/jamieg1782/williamrileyleewilliamscropped.jpg

She was listed as a single woman, his baptism date given as 8th Nov 1874

Isaac Williams and Rhoda Married 19 Apr 1975


Now if she was a single woman at the time his last name could be Lee

is it possible it should read Isaac Williams instead of Isaac William (Lee)

[christanel]

Isaid this is my post #39
"You have found a very interesting baptism for a William Lee in Nov 1874 parents Rhoda and Isaac. You could ask the GRO to search for the birth with these parents names. it isn't going to tell you much more than his birthdate though, although it may sort out the correct surname for Isaac.
There is the marriage reg of Isaac Williams and a Rhoda Lee June ¼ 1875 Kensington vol 1a page 48
This could set us straight on who this Rhoda's father is (Riley?) and also whether the baptismal record of young William incorrectly recorded his father Isaac as a Lee instead of Williams."

But then I think Isaac remarries as a Lee after Rhoda's death. I have it in another post?

I will have to look again. My editing time will probably run out before I find it.

[JamieG1782]

so I'll order the marriage certificate and go from there? I know you had already said it, but thought the image and single woman part may of been helpful..Sorry

[christanel]

Hey, nothing to be sorry about Jamie. I have to keep refreshing my memory 'cos it is so bad and you are so right, the single woman bit is very interesting and helpful.
Now to find my paperwork on this and put it in a safe place and remember the safe place!

William Riley could be registered as a Lee or a William Williams (oh perish the thought) and it may be that when you decide to take the plunge and order a birth cert. you will have to ask the GRO to do a search for a William born 1874, probably the last 1/4 with the parents Isaac Williams or Lee and Rhoda Lee. The GRO website should tell you whether they charge any extra for this service but it could be cheaper than ordering certificates willy nilly.
I would order the marriage cert for Isaac and Rhoda it could have some helpful information eg addresses, witnesses and of course the fathers and their occupations.
Good luck