seeking to discover info. re. maternal grandparents

[Brian Hobin]

May I ask three questions?

In preparation for that I should give a bit of background information.

My name is Brian Hobin. I am a Child Welfare social work supervisor. My wife is retiring this year after a number of years teaching grade one. We have three boys; a daughter in law and one grandson. We live here in Napanee, in Canada. I am 59 (approaching middle age). I work here in Canada in Child Welfare. Sadly, I have fallen in and out; on or off the path of a small genealogical quest over the past decade as I am stuck.

My mother's name is Kathleen CROFT. Before she died, always wanted to know more about her parents and why she was "fostered". That then is my interest but I have little information to start with. A paradox or conundrum involvex her father, Mr. Frederick CROFT.

My mother was born as Kathleen CROFT on "nineteenth September 1900 at 69 Windsor Road in the Registration District of Romford in the Sub-district of Ilford, in the County of Essex. Her parent's were, Frederick CROFT ("Commercial Clerk Reservist on Active Service") and Sarah CROFT (" formerly SCALES").

In Kathleen's early years, the family myth is that when Frederick was killed in
South Africa in the early 1900's in the English-South African War, Kathleen was placed with a family in London. The new family's names are William and Mary JOHNSON.

I have no information regarding Frederick. I have not been able to find any marriage record for he and Sarah.

When William JOHNSON died, a letter that I received that relates that the " Minutes of the Public Control Committee of the London Council for 15 October 1909 gave an authorization for Mrs Mary JOHNSON of 55 Arliss Road , Lavender Hill to take in 5 foster children and a further minute of the same committee on 14 October 1910 increases this from 5 to 6."

Written in the same letter, was the information that in December 1911 under a street renaming, this address became No 279 Eversleigh Road, Battersea S.W. London.

William and Mary JOHNSON had, as far as I know, three children: Lillian; Jack and William.

My mother related that she helped Mary a raise the foster children. I believe that she was quite close to Lillian. For some unusual reason, in the 1950's when my mother made an attempt to locate Lillian she was successful. According to a letter that I saw Lillain invited her to write. Kathleen hesitated to contact her for two years?? When Katleen did write. Lillian was gone.

1) My question that I would like to ask is did the Johnson's, based on the above address,African War, Kathleen was placed with a family in London. The new family's names are William and Mary JOHNSON.

2) If I may ask a second question, is there any way to access personal information regarding Mary (or William) Johnson such as her maiden name?


The conundrum or confusing part for me is that I now have an electronic copy of a document regarding a Frederick CROFT who died in 1902 in South Africa. This Frederick was a member of what I believe was a South African Regiment. Is he one and the same as the Frederick who was a Commercial Clerk Reservist at Ilford?? This I do not know how to resolve.

Ten years ago I corresponded with Terrence Wheatley of South Africa who wrote as follows.
"Terrence Wheatley writes: re. Duke of Edinburgh’s Own Volunteer Rifles Regiment
- Lance Corporal Frederick Croft #1152 joined the Regiment on 10 October 1898 at the age of 21 years(no date of birth)
-promoted to the rank of Lance Corporal on 1 March 1901
-his mustering was Driver (possibly mule or horse)
-killed in action at Danielskuil on 18 February 1902
-Wife’s name Mrs. L Croft of Bloemhoff Street, Cape Town
-previous service was with the Cape Garrison Artillery from 14 November 1895 to 1 September 1897 ( The C.G. A. Has now been disbanded)"

Terrence Wheat live in Essex County?

3) Is it possible to determine if the Frederick CROFT in England (my materal grandfather) is one and the same or different form the one serving in South Africa??

Regards

Brian Hobin

[Guy Etchells]

May I ask three questions?

1) My question that I would like to ask is did the Johnson's, based on the above address, live in Essex County?

2) If I may ask a second question, is there any way to access personal information regarding Mary (or William) Johnson such as her maiden name?

3) Is it possible to determine if the Frederick CROFT in England (my materal grandfather) is one and the same or different form the one serving in South Africa??

Regards

Brian Hobin

No, Essex ends North of the river Thames, Lavender Hill is South West, London in Surrey.

You could apply for her marriage certificate that would show her maiden name, check the GRO index for her husband's name.

Doubtful if you will find conclusive proof, but you should be able to balance the probabilities.
Does the date of birth circa 1877 tally?
Do you have any record of your grandfather being know as John?
When & where did Frederick CROFT & Sarah SCALES marry, if at all?
I would tend to search in Essex rather than Surrey as the Surrey address is where the foster parents lived.
Have you looked for Attestation papers for when Frederick joined up?
These are just a few questions that may lead to the answers.
Cheers
Guy

[Peter Goodey]

1) My question that I would like to ask is did the Johnson's, based on the above address, live in Essex County?

No. In 1901 they were in Battersea with young Kathleen (nurse child). See the 1901 census.

2) If I may ask a second question, is there any way to access personal information regarding Mary (or William) Johnson such as her maiden name?

Yes. Obtain a birth certificate for one of their known children. Again, see the 1901 census.

3) Is it possible to determine if the Frederick CROFT in England (my materal grandfather) is one and the same or different form the one serving in South Africa??

See other threads on this forum for advice on military records with special attention to the Boer War. Also see the advice on the National Archives site
http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/researchguidesindex.asp

[Lesley Robertson]

<- Lance Corporal Frederick Croft #1152 joined the Regiment on 10 October 1898 at the age of 21 years(no date of birth)
-promoted to the rank of Lance Corporal on 1 March 1901
-his mustering was Driver (possibly mule or horse)
-killed in action at Danielskuil on 18 February 1902
-Wife’s name Mrs. L Croft of Bloemhoff Street, Cape Town
-previous service was with the Cape Garrison Artillery from 14 November 1895 to 1 September 1897 ( The C.G. A. Has now been disbanded)" >

There are a few things to check here.
1: It seems unlikely that if this is "your" Frederick, he went to S.Africa, served from 1895-1897, went back to England, and then returned to S.Africa. It would therefore be worth checking the 1901 census to see if he can be traced. I see that guy has found Kathleen already with the Johnstons, but it needs checking. It would also be worth looking for him in the 1891 (try your nearest LDS centre, they should be able to get the films).
2: The info you quote says that he was married to Mrs L. Croft of Cape Town. The record of his marriage to this lady might prove illuminating, as might her death notice. Also, what happened to Sarah Scales? From your description, she was still alive at the time of Frederick's death. If she was in England to hand over her child to the Johnstons, did she do this to follow Frederick to SA, message=<- Lance Corporal Frederick Croft #1152 joined the Regiment on 10 October 1898 at the age of 21 years(no date of birth)
-promoted to the rank of Lance Corporal on 1 March 1901
-his mustering was Driver (possibly mule or horse)
-killed in action at Danielskuil on 18 February 1902
-Wife’s name Mrs. L Croft of Bloemhoff Street, Cape Town
-previous service was with the Cape Garrison Artillery from 14 November 1895 to 1 September 1897 ( The C.G. A. Has now been disbanded)" >

It seems possible that you have 2 Fred Crofts here, or a bigamist!

[Brian Hobin]

Good morning Lesley; if you received an unfinished email from me, I made an error in trying to figure out how to attach a document to it. If you didn't, I began by apologizing for my slowness in getting back to you.
Anyway, in the paragrph following, the sentence containing "Wife’s name Mrs. L Croft of Bloemhoff Street, Cape Town" is a quote form an email that I received quite some time ago. More recently, I received electronic copies of documents from South Africa regarding the death of Frederick CROFT. One of the five has the name of surviving spouse as Mrs E.M.W. Croft with an address of 2 Blosmhoff St. Cape Town. (I may have mispelled the Street name slightly)
I am not sure what document the original correspondent saw when he said "Mrs L. Croft". At that time another correspondent said that becaus of hadwriting styles, an "L" could often be an "S" but mistaken. This realy puzzled me. Now the newest document says "Mrs. E.M.W. Croft" which has no relationship to anything prior. I have to assume that this idocument contains the accurate name. Would you agree?

[Brian Hobin]

1) My question that I would like to ask is did the Johnson's, based on the above address, live in Essex County?

No. In 1901 they were in Battersea with young Kathleen (nurse child). See the 1901 census.
>>>>>Good morning Peter. Is there a website, or a book that you are aware of that would have detailed maps of England? I am a visual person and would like to locate Battersea and the county boundaries.

2) If I may ask a second question, is there any way to access personal information regarding Mary (or William) Johnson such as her maiden name?

Yes. Obtain a birth certificate for one of their known children. Again, see the 1901 census. >>>>I will go ther and try that.

3) Is it possible to determine if the Frederick CROFT in England (my materal grandfather) is one and the same or different form the one serving in South Africa??

See other threads on this forum for advice on military records with special attention to the Boer War. Also see the advice on the National Archives site
http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/researchguidesindex.asp ------------- I think that my last question was too broad and optimistic. I will follow up as you suggest. This learning certainly is a challenge. 8-) Thanks.

Regards
Brian

[sandiep]

not sure if this is of help but in 1901 also living in Battersea is a sarah Crofts age 28 adomestic servant.
differances are she is down as single.
sandie

[Brian Hobin]

not sure if this is of help but in 1901 also living in Battersea is a sarah Crofts age 28 adomestic servant.
differances are she is down as single.
sandie

Hello. ( I can't say good evening as it is almost 11:00PM here) May I call you Sandiep? ( I am not sure if this is your actual name)

Please, by all means would you please forward the above reference or where I may access it?

I am trying to equate Sarah CROFT as a domestic servant and her apparent husband ( on my mother's birth certificate) Federick CROFT who is noted as a " Commercial Clerk Reservist on Active Service"

Would Sarah have been working in someone's home in Battersea?
If she knew that Frederick were deceased [if he were) I assume that she would have to work.

I have a copy of my mother's ( Kathleen CROFT) marriage certificate in 1918 at the Church of Our Lady of Mount Carmel and St. Joseph, Battersea Park Road in Battersea. (Dad was Irish Cathoic and mum was Anglican)

On the certificate Kathleen lists her father as Frederick Croft (deceased) but the odd thing is that as a Rank or professin he is noted as "Jeweller's Commercial Traveller." I have assumed that his job would be harmonious with that noted on Kathleen's birth certificate.

Your assistance and and any advice would be truly appreciated.
Regards
Brian

[Brian Hobin]

No, Essex ends North of the river Thames, Lavender Hill is South West, London in Surrey.

Do you have any record of your grandfather being know as John?

>>>No records at all other than for the Birth certificate. I received a letter 12 years ago form Captain E.A. Gray who said that John Frederick CROFT was sworn in Cape Town into the DEOVR which is a South African regiment. Frederick CROFT at Ilford, was a "Regular Army reservist" said Captain Gray. Attached ( I hope) is a copy of the South African document referencing John Frederick.

When & where did Frederick CROFT & Sarah SCALES marry, if at all?

>>>I don't know. All I can say is that Kathleen was born in Ilford, My memory from 12 years ago says that Sheila Jones a genealogist mentioned that CROFT was a name attached to a local business in or near Ilford.

I would tend to search in Essex rather than Surrey as the Surrey address is where the foster parents lived.
Have you looked for Attestation papers for when Frederick joined up?

>>>I did correspond back then but nothing was found. This was not an exhaustive search by any means. I will follow up again.

These are just a few questions that may lead to the answers.
Cheers
Guy

Regards
Brian
P.S. Guy, I believe that you initially sent me two letters? If you did, could you please resend the second; the one not referenced above.

[Terry Reeves]

Brian

There is a Kathleen Croft aged 6 months in the 1901 UK Census. Her place of birth is given as "Elford , Essex" This is a very close match and "Elford" may well have been mis-transcribed for "Ilford." Go to the UK National Archive web site and find the 1901 census. There is a small charge for the download of the complete entry, payable by credit card.

With regard to war service in South Africa, the word "reservist" suggests he had been in the regular army and called up for war service in South Africa. I can't comment on your researchers previous information, but assuming this was a different man and he was UK based, his service papers should be in the WO 97 series of documents at the NA in London. Ufortunately, these are not available on- line.

Terry Reeves

[Brian Hobin]

Brian

There is a Kathleen Croft aged 6 months in the 1901 UK Census. Her place of birth is given as "Elford , Essex" This is a very close match and "Elford" may well have been mis-transcribed for "Ilford." Go to the UK National Archive web site and find the 1901 census. There is a small charge for the download of the complete entry, payable by credit card.

With regard to war service in South Africa, the word "reservist" suggests he had been in the regular army and called up for war service in South Africa. I can't comment on your researchers previous information, but assuming this was a different man and he was UK based, his service papers should be in the WO 97 series of documents at the NA in London. Ufortunately, these are not available on- line.

Terry ReevesGood morning Terry. I have been off line for a few weeks and unable to follow up. I am or will now. In your last paragraph you speak of the "WO 97 Series" at the National Archives. How does one contact a researcher to search those documents? I will write to the NA to ask as well. I thought that you (or someone who reads this) might know valued researcher that I could contact.
Regards
Brian

[Brian Hobin]

Brian

There is a Kathleen Croft aged 6 months in the 1901 UK Census. Her place of birth is given as "Elford , Essex" This is a very close match and "Elford" may well have been mis-transcribed for "Ilford." Go to the UK National Archive web site and find the 1901 census.



There is a small charge for the download of the complete entry, payable by credit card.

With regard to war service in South Africa, the word "reservist" suggests he had been in the regular army and called up for war service in South Africa. I can't comment on your researchers previous information, but assuming this was a different man and he was UK based, his service papers should be in the WO 97 series of documents at the NA in London. Ufortunately, these are not available on- line.

Terry Reeves
>>Hello again Terry. May I ask for your advice again. I went on line to the N.A. I did a name search of the 1901 census for Kathleen CROFT and nothing came up. I tried both "Ilford" and "Elford" . I must be doing something incorrect but I am not sure what it is. Can you advise?
Regards
Brian

[Mark]

Go to

nationalarchives, click the "Person Search" on the left hand side

type in
lastname: Croft
firstname : Kathleen

click "Search".

On the resulting page there are 8 matches for that name, including the 6m old born in Elford.

Mark

[Brian Hobin]

Thanks Mark, very much. When I did it again, it worked! I have found her name. My next issue as I sort my way through this is to sort out the cost of accessing the information. According to one set of instructions I can pay 50 or 75 p for access to an entry but doesn't give detail on how to do this.
The on line basic instruction is that the cost will be between 5 and 20 lbs (is that the right abbreviation?) which is a bit stiff and scary to me if this is to pay for a first, inexperienced access. I have written to the NA to ask but I anticipate that their respones will be slow. Do you know a reasonalbe method for accessing the census?
Regards
Brian

[Brian Hobin]

Good morning Guy. I have done a google seach to try to locate the GRO. I found a website called StCaths.com but I do not think that is the correct website. Please let me know what the correct website is.
Regards
Lost in the basics
Brian

[Mark]

Having not paid for anything from the 1901 Census site, I can't help you spend your money. Luckily I'm this side of the pond, and I've been able to go to Kew and view the fiche there for the 1901.

I'm sure though that others here will be able to advise on online costs in £ ... (or GBP for "challenged" character sets).

Mark

[Cornish Maid]

DO NOT use the St.Caths.GRO site - you will pay over the odds for a certificate. You should not need to pay more than £7 (plus postage).


Try Googling for the LOCAL register office and order the cert from them - much quicker than the GRO, (that's the real GRO, not the site mentioned above) who have a backlog of some weeks, due to a sudden upsurge in Family History matters!

Unfortunately I am miles from the National Archives Office, but I am sure someone on here will be going sooner or later and will offer to get the papers you require! (Prompt, prompt...)

Good luck

Cornish Maid

[Peter Goodey]

"Do you know a reasonalbe method for accessing the census? "

The National Archives site IS reasonable. Pay by credit card. GBP 5 minimum. GBP 0.75 per image. Vouchers are better value (from GBP 5) - there is a list of suppliers which includes overseas vendors on the website.

[Linda]

Hi Brian

5 pounds is ok if you want to lookup several people/families in the 1901 census, you will soon use it up, :D but if you just want one lookup you could ask LindaH as she is offering lookups from Ancestry. Try leaving a message on this thread, with as much detail as possible (give her the info that you found in the index search)
http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4718&highlight=ancestry

Good Luck, and welcome to family research ;)