Dying Intestate...what happens when..........

[sindylin]

What I want to try and ascertain is this; if a person dies intestate, has no husband, children, parents or siblings living, does their estate automatically go to the next in line or do the remaining relatives have to "fight" for it, so to speak?

The reasons I ask is that an ancestor of mine died in 1920 but hadn't written a will. I think her neice was living with her at this time as the niece is recorded as being present at the death and also registered it.

If she wasn't actualy living there at the time of her aunts death she was certainly living there soon after (and she died there in 1961)

The niece was a spinster as was her sister and her sister's daughter and all three of them ended up living there until their deaths.

Its a shame that the aunt didn't write a will as I have no way of knowing for sure how the niece came to inherit the property hence my query as to the rules of intestate.


Any help, greatly appreciated.

[v.wells]

Perhaps the home was given as a gift to the niece or sold to her for £1 to avoid inheritance taxes and/or to get her name on the land title deed of ownership.

[Jan1954]

Have a read of what the HMCS has to say about Intestacy Rules (http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/infoabout/civil/probate/why_will.htm). Scroll down and you will find it.

[sindylin]

Thanks for the replies and the link to the HMCS, according to what is stated there, everything would have gone to the crown.

What happens to it then?
How did the niece end up with the house?

If it had been left as a gift to her then surely this would have to be stated in a will, and there wasn't one.

I'm confooooozed!

|help|

[NickM]

Thanks for the replies and the link to the HMCS, according to what is stated there, everything would have gone to the crown.
|help|

No, it only goes to the crown if no other living relative can be found. When someone dies without a will, the executor of the estate (usually a family member or friend) has to decide who has the best claim to the money. The "pecking order" is laid down on the HMCE site which has been linked to. When someone like a niece inherits an intestate estate, this doesn't mean that a closer relative can't turn up some time later and claim the inheritance, and insurances are available to cover that eventuality - they are called "Missing Beneficiary Indemnities".

[Jan1954]

Thanks for the replies and the link to the HMCS, according to what is stated there, everything would have gone to the crown.Ummmm... I read it differently...

2 a. If any of the deceased’s children die before him or her, and leave children of their own, (that is grandchildren of the deceased), then those grandchildren between them take the share that their mother or father would have taken if he or she had still been alive. This also applies to brothers and sisters, and uncles and aunts of the deceased who have children - if any of them dies before the deceased, the share that he or she would have had if he or she were still alive, goes to his or her children between them.

From this, I read that the niece and the others would have inherited the house.

[Geoffers]

The reasons I ask is that an ancestor of mine died in 1920 but hadn't written a will.

The probate calendar includes admons (Letters of Administration) granted to someone to adminster an estate. If you get a chance to do so, you might check it to see if this was the case and who was named. If this was complicated, you may have to search the calendar for sometime after death.

[sindylin]

The probate calendar includes admons (Letters of Administration) granted to someone to adminster an estate. If you get a chance to do so, you might check it to see if this was the case and who was named. If this was complicated, you may have to search the calendar for sometime after death.

thanks again for your replies.....ooops seems I didn't read the thing correctly...humble apologies......

Geoffers. where would I find the admons?

thanks

[Geoffers]

In the probate calendar - it is available at most/all county record offices, having been copied onto film.

Check with your local record office to see what coverage they have.

The probate calendar is easy to use, entries arranged alphabetically in each year. Enough detail is normally included to identify individuals.

[sindylin]

Thank you..sorry to sound dense. |oopsredfa

I will see what I can find.:)

[Wirral]

The rules on intestacy are different in Scotland from those in England & Wales. In England & Wales, the furthest back that you can look for a common connection to the deceased is through descendants of the deceased's grandparents -eg aunts & uncles, 1st cousins. In Scotland you can go further back in the generations to make the connection - eg great-aunts, great-uncles, 2nd cousins.


In Sindylin's case, as there was a property involved, the niece will have had to apply for adminstration of her aunt's estate. She & any other other 1st cousins (or any aunts & uncles of the deceased who were still alive) would have been beneficiaries & the estate should have been divided up according to the intestacy rules of the country that the deceased died in. If the niece & her sister were the only living beneficiaries, then they would have have inherited half of the estate each. (The daughter of the sister does not receive anything as her mother has already received a share).

If someone dies intestate & no living relatives are known (of the degree of closeness required by law), then in England and Wales the Administration of the estate will be granted to the Treasury. Unless the person died in the Duchy of Cornwall or the Duchy of Lancaster. In these cases the Administration goes to the Prince of Wales (Cornwall) or the Queen (Lancaster). If the estate is not subsequently claimed by valid beneficiaries, usually within 12 years, then the estate goes to the Treasury, the Queen or Prince Charles.

[sindylin]

The 1911 census cleared a few queries up for me! Quite surprising what I found; the sister of the niece was the owner of the house!

Thanks for your replies, have taken on board what you have said for future reference!

sindylin

[MythicalMarian]

Let me just add to this thread for future reference, using a modern example.

My uncle died intestate, childless and unmarried in 2004 - he had named no next of kin in hospital either! Probate on his estate of some £70,000 cash and later probate on property of around £90,000 went like this:

He had one living sister and one living brother - they got a share of his initial cash estate. After this, the solicitors went back to his dead siblings (and they were many) and the surviving children of those said dead siblings (one of whom was me). All we children of dead siblings got a cash share. In the event of a child of a dead sibling being dead themselves (in the case of my sister), the share went to her surviving children (i.e. his great nephew and nieces). The solicitors calculated the share by saying that he had eight siblings who had had children, therefore the estate was to be divided by eighths, and those various eighths being divided between the remaining children (nieces, great nieces etc) The later sale of a house he owned was split in a like manner between us all.

Very, very complicated! A further requirement was that my surviving uncle applied for administration and got it, so he had to supply all details of surviving dead siblings' children to the solicitors.

I don't know if this equates to the info on the site in question, but I just mention this to show that it is still in use today, and a very long convoluted process it is. Compared to modern times, our ancestors' probate was a simple business! It also serves to teach us all a lesson: make a will, while you are still able - even if you have no kids.

[MythicalMarian]

I wanted to add - but the edit was timed out...

Those eighths that I mentioned were to be divided between remaining children. Therefore, those siblings of my uncles who had only one child - that chiild would get the full eighth. Those of his siblings who had five children (a couple of them) got the eighth divided by five!

It's a very, very complicated process, folks.

[Colin Moretti]

No, it only goes to the crown if no other living relative can be found. ...That is not always the case. I have a relative who died without issue and without making a will (he'd probably drunk any money he had, cause of death DTs) in 1872. In 1899 £50 came to him left by a relative who died in 1861 (I have got the dates right but it's too complicated for this post) so what happened to the money? It's still held by the Court Funds Office (http://www.officialsolicitor.gov.uk/cfo/cfo.htm) waiting for someone to claim it; with interest its rather more than £50 now, of course.

I did investigate the possibility of claiming; I would have to apply for letters of administration, identify all living relatives and divvy the money up in the way noted by MythicalMarian. It would not be too difficult to track down all surviving MORETTIs but I think that finding over 100 years-worth of mainly 20th century BROWNs might be a little bit too difficult!

Colin

[robsnicta]

Were all the above intestacy laws exactly the same in 1961 or have they changed since? Also what were the laws regarding adopted children back then, I know they have had equal rights since 2004.

[robsnicta]

My ancestor lived in Leicester and I live in Teesside, how can I find out about finding an admon from a distance?

[Colin Moretti]

My ancestor lived in Leicester and I live in Teesside, how can I find out about finding an admon from a distance?

It will depend on the date (pre- or post-1858)

Colin

[robsnicta]

It was post 1858

[Colin Moretti]

It was post 1858

In which case you will need to consult the National Probate Calendar.

If the query relates to this post
Default Intestate Rules Pre 2004

I have an ancester that appears to have died intestate in 1961 as no will or grant of administration could be found by York HMCS.then there won't be an admon unless unusually it was granted after the search period.

If it's a different case then check the National Probate Service website (http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/cms/1226.htm#addresses) to find the nearest Probate Office, they may or may not have the calendar for the relevant date; or a copy of the calendar may be held by your nearest record office, check with them.

Colin