Thomas Orrell Shoemaker

[jake01]

I have marriage cert of my gr grand father John Orrell 1848-1883 married to Betty Cowell 1855-1903. On the cert John's father being THOMAS ORRELL occupation SHOEMAKER. Problem is that I cannot find a b.m.d. for Thomas being my gr.gr.grandfather. I understand birth circa 1808 ? Would like to find his birth,marriage and death. This was in Bolton lancashire.
I would like to find out more about the shoemaker connection, would he be self employed or would he work for someone compnay small or large.
Any help on this would be most welcome. I need a point in the right direction.
Jake01|banghead|

[elaine webb]

Hi Jake

Have you tried searching on the Lancashire Parish records site - www.
lan-opc.org.uk/index/html

I have been looking on the censuses for you but can't find a Thomas with occupation as shoemaker, so bear in mind he probably changed professions. Have you any idea at all of Thomas wife's name? Or if there were any more siblings, if so what are their names if you know them of course??

Just trying to search for you.

Best wishes

Elaine.

[Peter Goodey]

I think you need to obtain John's birth details first. Trying to skip an essential step is a recipe for mistakes.

Have you found John with his parents in the census? Is there any evidence there to support the existence of a Thomas?

In the 1851 census I can see a Robert ORRELL shoemaker in Bolton with a son John.

[jake01]

Hi elaine.
Yes have checked lancashire Parish records no luck.
One query. John's birth cert shows father as Robert occ cordwainer married to Elizabeth Rainford but Johns Marriage cert shows father as Thomas occ shoemaker. Am I looking at two different peolpe or not?

[jake01]

Hi Peter.
Yes I have what I believe to be John's birth cert . It shows father as Robert occ cordwainer and mother Elizabeth formerly Rainford.
Now Johns marriage cert gives father as Thomas occ shomaker.
This is were my confusion comes in am I looking at two people or a name as been recorded incorrectly.

[Thomasin]

Well, a cordwainer and a shoemaker are one and the same thing, but whether they are the same people is another matter. Could he possibly have been Robert Thomas Orrell, or Thomas Robert Orrell, and the wrong first name has been used?

Thomasin

[Penny Gallo]

Cordwainer was a much more old-fashioned term for a shoe-maker, then by the end of the 20th century cordwainer became officially antiquated but also much 'posher'sounding, with the Worshipful Company of Cordwainers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cordwainer
However, your shoemaker up in Bolton may well have been making and repairing shoes and boots, using one of those strange three-footed iron implements, stitching, nails (hob-nails) and leather. He could possibly have worked alone. The census may be revealing, as my shoe-making ancestors in Northampton all had their individual specialism noted eg Boot Rivetter, making it clear the whole family were working at the trade. Hope you can turn up useful information. Local museums often have a replica cobbler's shop displaying tools and leather pieces. Northampton has a good one, with an immense collection:
http://www.northampton.gov.uk/site/scripts/documents_info.php?documentID=142&pageNumber=8

[CanadianCousin]

I would like to find out more about the shoemaker connection, would he be self employed or would he work for someone company small or large.

Two things to consider - where they worked and when they worked. There was a shoemaking industry prior to 1850, and certain centres had large populations of shoemakers working in a factory system. However, the work itself was still largely done by hand, and certain stages of shoe construction were often outsourced to craftsmen and their families working from home.

If your ancestor did not live in one of these shoemaking centres, there's a greater likelihood that they were self-employed. Like the butcher, baker, smith, or cooper, shoemakers were a part of most communities' tradesman class, providing goods and services to a local clientèle. Shoemakers were covered by the "Statute of Artificers" and thus came under the master/apprentice system.

In larger centres, shoemakers (or cordwainers, as they were officially known) had their own guilds, which controlled standards and membership within the town or city. A prosperous shoemaker in a town might employ several journeymen (shoemakers who had completed their apprenticeship but chose to work for someone else) and apprentices, while he* looked after the business end of things. As with most occupations, London was a realm unto itself, in terms of guild power and influence.
* some women were shoemakers, but this was not common.

Smaller villages would usually have 2 or 3 shoemakers to service the local rural population, be they agricultural labourers, miners, mariners, or whatever. These individuals would usually have an apprentice and/or family member to help with the work, as the shop and family home were one and the same.

The majority of shoes and boots were made to order for each customer (a notable exception being boots for the army). Shoemakers owned their own tools and - in the early days - made their own lasts (wooden forms resembling a foot, on which the shoe would be built). Customers (at least the wealthier ones) could have their own lasts at the shoemaker's, so that new shoes or boots could be ordered without coming in for measurements. As the 19th century progressed, last making developed into a separate industry.

After about 1850 (approximately), shoemaking was transformed dramatically, as machinery (e.g., sewing machines) was developed that could take over virtually all stages of production, particularly the most laborious and time-consuming ones. Within a decade or so, the local shoemaker was quickly disappearing, forced into another occupation or catering to a particular clientèle (e.g., bespoke shoes for the gentry). Local shoemakers do seem to have held on longer in some small rural centres, probably where people lacked the cash for 'store bought' shoes, but could pay 'in kind' (e.g., perhaps a chicken or two for a pair of shoes).

I have shoemakers in both of my paternal grandparents' families, and while their social status was not particularly high, they were better off than many others who worked as ag labs or factory workers. They could set their own hours, had control over their working conditions, and could pick up and move to another community when economic circumstances changed.

My apologies if that's more than you wanted to know! |laugh1|

Tim

[Peter Goodey]

You may or may not have two different people. What about the marriage witnesses? Any clues there?

There seem to be rather too many ORRELLs in Bolton for comfort. In view of the discrepancy, I would suggest that you would be best advised to get down to some serious study of the parish registers (I hope they were CofE). I see that they're local so you'll know where to find them.

Draw up mini family trees of all the ORRELL families and the identity of your John should become clear.

[CanadianCousin]

... your shoemaker up in Bolton may well have been making and repairing shoes and boots ...

Strictly speaking, cordwainers (shoemakers) were only supposed to make new shoes - repairing shoes was left to cobblers. I suspect this rule was not always rigorously enforced, particularly in smaller centres with no guilds, but that's just a supposition on my part.

Tim

[Geoffers]

There seem to be two threads covering very closely the same ground.

Jake01's other thread is here - ORRELL (http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38656)

To avoid confusion and possible duplication of help, I have closed the other thread, please just use it for reference and only update this thread.

Thanks

[jake01]

hi Geoffers.
Apologies for starting two similar threads one on surnames and one on occupations. Thank you for closing the surname interest thread, I see it will cause less confusion.

Canadian Cousin. Thank you for that very interesting
On checking census. 1841:1851:1871: all show Johns father as Robert occ shoemaker born Chipping. married to Elizabeth born Liverpool. I have since found marriage record at St Nic's RC.Liverpool 1834, Robert Orrell to Elizabeth Rainford.
The anomoly of Johns father being Robert or Thomas puzzles me on the m cert Thomas:confused:

As Peter says in his reply there are too many Orrell's in Bolton in fact rafts of them.

Witness at Johns marriage Ann Orrell (his sister)and John Cowell (his wifes brother)

[Geoffers]

hi Geoffers.
Apologies for starting two similar threads one on surnames and one on occupations. Thank you for closing the surname interest thread, I see it will cause less confusion.

No problem - it's just that from experience we've forund it better to just keep one thread going at a time. Your other thread will remain on the forums so eevryone can see it, and there is a link on it through to this active thread.

Thanks for being so understanding.