Will and Decree

[Mary C]

I have the Will of Philip Tanswell, of Brisol, who died in November 1819. It was proved at London on 27th September 1820. I have found in the Bristol Mercury dated 28 February 1835 the following notice -

"Pursuant to a Decree of the High Court of Chancery made in a Cause “Tanswell v Williams” the Creditors of PHILIP TANSWELL, late of Totterdown in the Parish of Bedminster in the county of Somerset, Gentleman, deceased, (who died in the month of November 1819) are, by their Solicitors, forthwith to come in and prove their Debts before John Edmund Dowdeswell Esq. one of the Masters of the said Court at his Office in Southampton Buildings, Chancery Lane, London or in default thereof they will be excluded the benefit of the said Decree."

This was 15 years after his death - does it mean that his Will was not implemented before then? One of his executors was a William Williams.

Can anyone tell me what this would be about please?

Mary

[Peter Goodey]

Search the National Archives catalogue

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/default.asp

Word or phrase: tanswell AND williams
Department or series code: C

That should explain everything.

You may need someone to visit the National Archives on your behalf or it may be feasible to order remotely - I don't know how voluminous the files are.

[Kerrywood]

As Peter has indicated, this relates to an equity suit heard in the Court of Chancery, perhaps relating to a disputed inheritance. It was not uncommon for such disputes to drag on for many years after a will was proved, nicely filling the lawyers' pockets.

The documents showing in the National Archives online catalogue (in C 13) are only the first stages of the suit (pleadings, depositions etc). These are in Chancery rolls, and stored not at Kew but offsite, in a former salt-mine in Cheshire. They have to be ordered into Kew at 3 days' notice.

The actual Decree, detailing the outcome of the case, should be in class C 33, but this class is not yet indexed online, and as far as I know copies cannot be ordered through Digital Express. As you are in Australia you would probably need to have someone go to Kew on your behalf.

This is the standard research guide

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=165

Kerrywood

[Mary C]

Hi Kerrywood and Peter

Many thanks for the information. I will see what I can get from the National Archives. I thought that once the Will had been 'Proved' everything then went ahead. Taking over 15 years - it sounds like that book/TV series - I can't think of the name at the moment (a seniors moment!) but I expect you know the one I mean.

Cheers
Mary

[Barnzzz]

"PHILIP TANSWELL, late of Totterdown"

I can't help with the will, but I live in Totterdown if you ever want info on the location.

Sue

[Peter Goodey]

It was not uncommon for such disputes to drag on for many years after a will was proved, nicely filling the lawyers' pockets.


Wasn't Jarndyce and Jarndyce in Bleak House one such example? (fictional, in that case of course)

[Kerrywood]

I've recently followed through one equity suit that began in 1817 and wasn't wound up until 1843, by which time one of the plaintiffs and at least two of the defendants were dead. Distributions from the estate were eventually made to the descendants of those who originally brought the case -- that's if anything was left after the lawyers had been paid, which wasn't made clear in the decree.

Kerrywood

[Mary C]

Thanks to you all -

Peter - Yes it was Bleak House I was thinking of

Kerrywood - I'm wondering what happened to his wife and children if they didn't get the money they were supposed to. After Philip died there was a notice in the local newspaper calling for anyone with claims or demands on the estate to contact the Solicitor, so I would have thought that if there were to be any claims they would have been sorted out then.

Sue - Thanks for the offer. I don't know the address of his property at Totterdown as he seemed to be living in his pub at the time he died. But, as I used to live at Knowle - I do know Totterdown, although I expect it has changed a lot since I was there.

Mary

[Mary C]

Hi again

I've just tried the link from Peter (thought I had already done that!) and I see the dispute was between Philip's wife and one of his executors William Williams who was also his 'good friend'

Mary

[Kerrywood]

I'm wondering what happened to his wife and children if they didn't get the money they were supposed to. After Philip died there was a notice in the local newspaper calling for anyone with claims or demands on the estate to contact the Solicitor, so I would have thought that if there were to be any claims they would have been sorted out then

Not necessarily. Calling in claims immediately after the death may have been just one part of a process that took some time to resolve. But the equity suit, if brought by Philip's wife against the executor as you suggest, may in any case have been a completely separate issue, unrelated to creditors' claims. You really can't second-guess without seeing the case papers, and even then it can sometimes be hard to follow the sequence of events.

If Philip's family did not receive the expected funds, they will have been in the same situation as many impoverished families up and down the country. If the widow could not support the family herself, either from her own funds or by working, she might have looked to remarry. If not, and if there was no support from relatives of friends, and if the children were not old enough to work, the family might have attracted poor relief from the parish or union. It's hard to say without knowing more of the family's circumstances.

Kerrywood

[Mary C]

I am waiting for an estimate from the National Archives for a copy of the document "Tanswell v Williams Depositions (Ann Tanswell v William Williams)". If I do order it I hope it will be useful.

Fingers crossed!!

[Mary C]

Hi Everyone

I have now received the documentation from the National Archives but it is disappointing. The only thing it tells me that I didn't know was that there were other Defendants, in addition to William Williams, which included Ann Tanwell's step-son Philip. I was hoping it would tell me the grounds for her complaint but it is basically just depositions from various clerks.

There were two other lots of documents on National Archives - (1) Tanswell v Williams Examination (of William Williams) and (2) Tanswell v Tanswell Bill and Five Answers.

Does anyone know if these would tell me what I want to know? It becomes expensive sending away for these things from Australia and I don't want to pay for other documents which are of no value.

Mary

[Colin Moretti]

Hello Mary

Tanswell v Tanswell may well be a different case, although it is not unknown for the title of the suit to change with time. The Bill is the complaint made by the plaintiff(s) to the court, setting out the alleged offences of the defendant(s) and the Five Answers are the initial responses made to the claims by the plaintiff(s).

The Examination of William Williams will most likely be the questioning of one of the witnesses in the case of Tanswell v Williams.

The depositions that you refer to in your last post are not ... just depositions from various clerks but the written evidence of witness in the case; of course, if it was a dispute over a will the witnesses may well have been clerks in a lawyer's office, for example.

There could be a lot more information at Kew that doesn't appear in the catalogue, before proceeding further I suggest that you borrow a copy of Tracing Your Ancestors at the National Archives (or ... at the Public Record Office, if its an earlier edition) from your library (or even buy a copy) and read up about the organisation of the records, their type and the information they contain.

The Chancery records can be very informative if you get the right ones.

Good luck

Colin

[Mary C]

Hi Colin

Thank you for the information. As Ann Tanswell's step son Philip was one of the co-defendants I think the Tanswell v Tanswell may be the same case. It looks as though it is The Bill and Five Answers that I want as I would particularly like to know the reason for Ann contesting the Will.

Regards
Mary