a kind help to look up at library!!

[cirstybewick]

hi
would a kind person living in luton help me please.
i was wondering if someone would do a look up at the library i am trying to find any information on a sidney and kate smith kate's madien name was palmer i do not know there births nor there deaths but i belive they were married in luton in 1906. on my grandfather's marrieage cert it has sidney smith as father decased he married winifred in 1938 in luton. on my grandfather's birth cert the father is not mentioned it is just blank so sidney may possiably not be my grandfather's father.
kate smith was a hat finisher.
on my grandfather's birth cert he is called dennis henry horwell smith born feb 1917 in luton, now what i am not sure of is why does he have the name horwell mentioned i woud take that as being a surname not a name (what do you think?) is this a clue to a father's surname?? i have mentioned the name horwell to my father and he never knew of the name just thought he was dennis henry smith.
so i am hoping that a very kind person from the area could do some checking for me as i live in margate and would find it difficult to get up there.

looking for:
sidney smith possiable born around 1860-1877
kate smith (palmer) born around 1871-1879
my grandfather was dennis henry horwell smith 1917 died 1993
he married winnifred maud grindrod born 1918 died 1987

kind regards
cirsty

[cirstybewick]

maybe i should of mentiond that my grandfather was born and living at dumfries street luton.

cirsty

[Sandyhall]

Marriages Dec 1906
GARRETT William Luton 3b 893
HELEY Sarah Ann Luton 3b 893
PALMER Kate Luton 3b 893
SMITH Sidney Luton 3b 893

Marriage info from FreeBMD this might give you dates of birth, it will give you fathers names and occupations.

Sandy

[cirstybewick]

great thanks

cirsty

[Sandyhall]

Births Dec 1876
Palmer Kate Luton 3b 426
Births Sep 1892
Palmer Kate Elizabeth Luton 3b 439

Search of FreeBMD gives only these 2 Kate Palmer I'd go for the First one.
Bit of a difference for Sidney Smith there are quite a few

Births Dec 1871
Smith Sidney Charles Luton 3b 400
Births Sep 1875
Smith Sidney Thomas Luton 3b 435
Births Mar 1876
SMITH Sidney Robert Luton 3b 457
Births Dec 1879
Smith Sidney Henry Luton 3b 437
There are more after this date

Sandy

[Sandyhall]

"on my grandfather's birth cert he is called dennis henry horwell smith born feb 1917 in luton, now what i am not sure of is why does he have the name horwell mentioned i woud take that as being a surname not a name (what do you think?) is this a clue to a father's surname?? i have mentioned the name horwell to my father and he never knew of the name just thought he was dennis henry smith."

Horwell could be a family name passed down the generations, it is usually a mothers maiden name at some stage. I bet when you get back a few generations you'll find it.

Sandy

[cirstybewick]

hi

thanks for that i never even thought of horwell being past down the family.

there is quite afew sidney smith's mmmm ganna have to marriage cert.

cheers thanks for youe help.

cirsty

[davidcarca]

There's a death of a Sidney Smith age 31 in Luton registration district in the June quarter 1915. If it's the right Sidney it would explain why father is left blank on Dennis' 1917 birth cert. In 1901 there's a 17 year Sidney, son of David & Roselia, who has an elder brother Henry, 26.

Apart from Horwell being a family name, the other thought is that it was a broad hint as to the father if Dennis was indeed illegitimate

David

[cirstybewick]

hi
thanks for that i thought that as well being a hint to the father's name.
i was told by an auntie that my grandfather's parents were quite old and that he had to be looked after by auntie's and uncles's???
if sidney and jate got married in 1906 then it can't be the sidney that died before 1906???
mmmmm

cheers
cirsty

[JPBeds]

In both the 1911 & 1917 Luton Directories there is a Thomas Smith living at 39 Dumfries Street Luton.
Also in 1911 a James Smith lives at number 19 & a Levi Smith was at no 69.

Only James Smith age 69 & wife Martha 55 are at any of those addresses on 1901 census
RG13/1514; Folio: 78; Page: 16 covers part of Dumfries Street, parish of St Saviour

There is a Thomas Smith with wife Emma & 11 children including a Sidney T Smith age 25 living at 55 Tavistock Street, Luton on 1901 census. RG13/1516; Folio: 81; Page: 22.

Also a Kate Palmer age 24 lives at 28 Windmill Street with parents Thomas & Eliza.
RG13/1518; Folio: 21; Page: 33.
They are still there in 1911 & 1917

[cirstybewick]

HI
I AM HAVING A BAD DAY TODAY!!! I JUST WENT TO GET MY GRANDADS BIRTH CERT TO CHECK THE DOOR NUMBER OF DUMFRIES STREET AND I CAN NOT FIND IT??? I HAVE ALL MY DOUCMENTS TOGETHER AND KEEP THEM ALL TOGETHER BUT HE'S IS NOT THERE I HAVE TURNED THE WHOLE PLACE UP SIDE DOWN!!! I THINK SOMEONE UP THERE DOESN'T WANT ME DIGGING??

ON MY GRANDADFATHER'S MARRIAGE IT SAY'S HE LIVES AT NUMBER 10 DUMFRIES STREET IN 1938.

CIRSTY

[Sandyhall]

HI
I AM HAVING A BAD DAY TODAY!!! I JUST WENT TO GET MY GRANDADS BIRTH CERT TO CHECK THE DOOR NUMBER OF DUMFRIES STREET AND I CAN NOT FIND IT??? I HAVE ALL MY DOUCMENTS TOGETHER AND KEEP THEM ALL TOGETHER BUT HE'S IS NOT THERE I HAVE TURNED THE WHOLE PLACE UP SIDE DOWN!!! I THINK SOMEONE UP THERE DOESN'T WANT ME DIGGING??

ON MY GRANDADFATHER'S MARRIAGE IT SAY'S HE LIVES AT NUMBER 10 DUMFRIES STREET IN 1938.

CIRSTY

I'm having one too, my computer is so slow the snails in the garden go faster, by the way its raining here, other people p****d me off as well.
Sandy
I don't think anyone is going to get any help to day

[cirstybewick]

well it's raining here too if that make's you feekl better lol.

cikrsty

[lesleys]

Sometimes other people's brickwalls can take one's mind off their own!
I spent quite a while trying to find any Horwell in the ancestry of any of the Sidney Smiths mentioned and have found absolutely nothing|banghead|
Horwell does not appear to be a Bedfordshire name at all the nearest I could find was a Henry Horrowell but not in Luton.

Sidney Henry b 1879 was the son of George Smith & Rosetta Dumpleton
Sidney Thomas b 1875 was the son of Thomas Smith & Emma Pollard
Sidney R b1876 was the son of Reuben Smith & Maryann Smith
and I'm not sure about Sidney Charles

I may have had more success with Kate Palmer:
If as suggested she was the daughter of Thomas & Eliza then I can tell you that they were married at St Mary's Bedford 18 May 1868 (IGI)- She was Eliza Allen (b 1842 Limbury) and already had two children Frederick & Henry who took the name Palmer see 1871 census
Thomas was the son of Thomas (1822) and Eliza (1819) nee Odell who married at St Mary's 27 Apr 1844 ( Luton Q2 6,138)

Hope this doesn't add too much confusion there were an awful lot of Sidney Smiths in and around Luton and he might have been older!

[Sandyhall]

well it's raining here too if that make's you feekl better lol.

cikrsty

No for some reason the day is just getting worse and worse.
Sandy
PS perhaps I should go and do something else......

[Sandyhall]

Sometimes other people's brickwalls can take one's mind off their own!
I spent quite a while trying to find any Horwell in the ancestry of any of the Sidney Smiths mentioned and have found absolutely nothing|banghead|
Horwell does not appear to be a Bedfordshire name at all the nearest I could find was a Henry Horrowell but not in Luton.

Sidney Henry b 1879 was the son of George Smith & Rosetta Dumpleton
Sidney Thomas b 1875 was the son of Thomas Smith & Emma Pollard
Sidney R b1876 was the son of Reuben Smith & Maryann Smith
and I'm not sure about Sidney Charles

I may have had more success with Kate Palmer:
If as suggested she was the daughter of Thomas & Eliza then I can tell you that they were married at St Mary's Bedford 18 May 1868 (IGI)- She was Eliza Allen (b 1842 Limbury) and already had two children Frederick & Henry who took the name Palmer see 1871 census
Thomas was the son of Thomas (1822) and Eliza (1819) nee Odell who married at St Mary's 27 Apr 1844 ( Luton Q2 6,138)

Hope this doesn't add too much confusion there were an awful lot of Sidney Smiths in and around Luton and he might have been older!


Sometimes you have to go back a lot further to before Census ETC to the parish records to find things.
Sandy

[cirstybewick]

well my day is getting better thanks to you for all this information, but yes maybe a little confusing lol.

thanks
cirsty

[cirstybewick]

just a quick up-date i have sent off for the marriage cert of sidney and kate so lets keep fingers crossed they are the correct people and i get some more information on our sidney eg father and sidneys age.

cirsty

[cirstybewick]

up date
sidney smith born 1884 luton
kate palmer born 1887 luton

sidneys father daniel smith i have looked in census and am coming up with roselia as sidneys mother but can't find volume number etc... to order birth cert.

kate palmer step father is mentioned on birt cert as henry charles halfpenny so no mothers name and no real fathers name as yet. although i am coming up with mary as a mothers name???? and no volume number etc,,, as yet.

if anyone has any more in fo... i would be grateful


cirsty

[christanel]

1901 census RG13 piece 1518 folio 127 page 49
Henry Halfpenny ? road labourer 35 born Luton
Mary A straw ag machinist .37 born Pallophill Bedfordshire
Kate Palmer 14 half daughter born Silsoe
Hy (Henry Charles son 6 born Luton
Pretoria dau 1 born Luton

The writing on this image is very flowing and lines crossing through it so occupations and where born for Mary A is a bit of a guess.

The son Henry Charles was in WW1 and has two entries giving the address as 10 Dumfries Street Luton. Evidently there are 17 + 19 pages of records and he was in Mesopotamia.
Christina

[christanel]

Birth reg - Kate Palmer Dec 1/4 1887 District Ampthill vol 3b page 35_ (last number missing) but this is enough to order it and it will give you Mary Ann's surname if not the father.
Christina

[christanel]

Marriage reg - on same page
Henry Halfpenny
Mary Palmer
Dec 1/4 1893 Luton vol 3b page 857
Christina

[christanel]

1891 RG12 piece 1260 folio111 page 2
Ampthill Bed.
_hedges Jolly _
Albert Palmer 31 Ag Lab born Flitton
Mary Palmer 28 born Pilloxhill
Kate dau 3 born Silsoe
Mabel dau 5 months born Biddenham
I am having a bad day reading the images.
Christina

[christanel]

There are two marriages for an Albert Palmer and one for a John Albert Palmer all in Ampthill on FreeBMD. One of the Alberts marrying a Sarah and the other without any other name on the page - only 44% transcribed. The John Albert Palmer is on the same page as Mary Worker but the best way of finding Mary's maiden name is to order Kate's birth cert. Assuming that I have the correct people you are seeking and I am not off with the fairies.

[christanel]

Death Sept 1/4 1891 Albert Palmer age 31 Ampthill vol 3b page 199
so that ties in.
Death Mabel Emma Dec 1/4 1891 age 1 vol 3b page 224 Ampthill.
Christina

[davidcarca]

In 1901 Mary A's birthplace is Pulloxhill and her occupation Straw hat machinist. Henry was a Corporation road labourer

David