Hawthorn Smith 1818

[babygirl101]

On the 1871 Census I’ve just found –

HAWTHORN SMITH (b. 1818, Croxton Leicestershire) in a field adjacent to Cox Lane, Beeston Nottingham.

Travelling with him are:-
MENTA (1819, Syston, Leicestershire) (wife)

Unmarried children :–

EVE SMITH (b.1852), Kettleby,
MIRIAM SMITH, (b.1852), Rempston,
HAWTHORN SMITH (b.1856), Elton, Rutland
MADELINE SMITH (b.1862), Clipstone,

Travelling with them are:-

WILLIAM SMITH (b. 1939), Croxton Leicestershire
LOUISA SMITH (b.1843), Hempingham, Leicestershire

ISAIAH SMITH (b.1844), Saxilby, Lincolnshire
SELINA SMITH ( b. 1843), Exham, Rutland

Children:-

NOAH SMITH(b. 25.1.1865) Willoughby, Nottinghamshire
ISAIAH SMITH (b. 1867), Lincolnshire
HAWTHORN SMITH (b. 1871) Nottinghamshire

They are all clothes peg makers.

Do anyone know anything about these Smiths, I haven't had any luck as yet finding them on any other census returns? I have a couple of Hawthorn Smiths in my family, but not these!!

Thanks

BG

[JoanneM]

In a roundabout way I've just found a Noah Smith born in Willoughby. I thought I recognised Isaiah Smith, but I was thinking of an Israel (who is also an Isaac and a John but is a different person from Isaiah as I've found him now in 1871). Anyway, I've been chasing my Israel and his travelling companions around the census today, and completely by chance came across this entry in 1891:

Attercliffe cum Darnall, Yorkshire (in caravans and tents off Darnall Road)
William Smith head mar 27 carter Bradford
Sophia wife mar 26 Leics Radcliffe
Sylvester son 9 not attending school Derby
Beatrice dau 4 Brightside Yorks
Alma dau 2 Attercliffe
Noah cousin unm 20 general gobber Leics Willoughby

He's lost a few years, and Willoughby is now in Leicestershire and not Nottinghamshire, but I thought I'd throw it into the mix for you anyway.

There are other Smiths and Boswells listed too.

[babygirl101]

Thank you for that, Joanne. I'll check it out. I haven't managed to make a connection between the two families as yet, but I'll keep working on it, as there's usually some connection. What a charming description of his occupation hehe!!! I'm guessing it actually reads as general jobber.

BG

[JoanneM]

What a charming description of his occupation hehe!!! I'm guessing it actually reads as general jobber.

No, I think it is actually a gobber, lol. It seems to be a colliery term, and if I remember rightly some of the others on that census entry were colliers. Found this:

gobber

a. Any device used for gobbing waste material.
b. A person employed to pack rubbish or waste into the gob.

I stumbled across another Hawthorn yesterday. I was checking freereg for the surname 'Charlotte', and there was a marriage at St. Peters, Woverhampton, between James Cope and Mary Ann Cookler on 28th Feb 1836, and the witnesses were John Biddulph and HAUTHORN CHARLOT. I've no proof that any of these people were romanies, but Charlotte is one of my surnames and the name Hawthorn is quite unusual.

[babygirl101]

No, I think it is actually a gobber, lol. It seems to be a colliery term, and if I remember rightly some of the others on that census entry were colliers. Found this:

gobber

a. Any device used for gobbing waste material.
b. A person employed to pack rubbish or waste into the gob.

I stumbled across another Hawthorn yesterday. I was checking freereg for the surname 'Charlotte', and there was a marriage at St. Peters, Woverhampton, between James Cope and Mary Ann Cookler on 28th Feb 1836, and the witnesses were John Biddulph and HAUTHORN CHARLOT. I've no proof that any of these people were romanies, but Charlotte is one of my surnames and the name Hawthorn is quite unusual.


Well, well, well, Joanne, you learn something new everyday, thank you for that. I haven't come across any Hawthorns around that area, but I do have several in the family:-

Hawthorn b. 1843, Buckminster who was married to Lydia Ingleton, nephew of Hawthorn b. 1818.
Hawthorn b. 1875, Sandiacre, Notts who died in infancy s/o Hawthorn & Lydia
This Hawthorn, b. 1856, s/o Hawthorn b. 1818.

From the snippets of information I gathered in the last couple of days they all appear to be related. The spelling of the name seems to vary according to the enumerator. It's quite possible that the one you refer is related in some way. I'll do some investigating into that one.

Many thanks agian

BG

[JoanneM]

On the 1871 Census I’ve just found –

HAWTHORN SMITH (b. 1818, Croxton Leicestershire) in a field adjacent to Cox Lane, Beeston Nottingham.

Travelling with him are:-
MENTA (1819, Syston, Leicestershire) (wife)

Unmarried children :–

EVE SMITH (b.1852), Kettleby,
MIRIAM SMITH, (b.1852), Rempston,
HAWTHORN SMITH (b.1856), Elton, Rutland
MADELINE SMITH (b.1862), Clipstone,

Travelling with them are:-

WILLIAM SMITH (b. 1939), Croxton Leicestershire
LOUISA SMITH (b.1843), Hempingham, Leicestershire

ISAIAH SMITH (b.1844), Saxilby, Lincolnshire
SELINA SMITH ( b. 1843), Exham, Rutland

Children:-

NOAH SMITH(b. 25.1.1865) Willoughby, Nottinghamshire
ISAIAH SMITH (b. 1867), Lincolnshire
HAWTHORN SMITH (b. 1871) Nottinghamshire

They are all clothes peg makers.

Do anyone know anything about these Smiths, I haven't had any luck as yet finding them on any other census returns? I have a couple of Hawthorn Smiths in my family, but not these!!

Thanks

BG

Just reading back through some old posts.

There's a baptism at Saxilby 6 Sep 1840 for Isaiah s/o James and Lilburne Smith, encamped at Otter's Lane Saxilby, gipsy (1 Nov 1840 Moses and Elderi were in Otter's Lane Saxilby and baptised son Thomas).

Also at Lincoln St. Nicholas (which all the Dawson's Court folk seem to use) there's a baptism on 18 Apr 1867 for Isaiah s/o Isaiah and Selina Smith of Rasen Lane.

Jo. :)

[babygirl101]

Jo

This is a very interesting find but it's giving me a real headache now. I've found some more siblings for Isaiah on IGI, but so far there's no trace of either his parents or siblings on the census returns, it looks as if they mysteriously vanished into the night:-


Beattie 1835 Mattersey Notts
James 1833 Croxton Keyrial
Levi 1837 Ingham Lincs
Sybrena 1838 Wittering Northants
Eliza 1842 Ingham Lincs
Miriam 1846 Marton Lincs

If anyone's got any ideas I'd love to know. Given mums unusual first name I'm 99.99% certain they're mine.

Thanks

BG :)

[JoanneM]

Hi BG,

There's another baptism for Albert s/o James and Lilburn Smith, father a hawker, at Nettleham on 7 Feb 1858 and one for Sophia d/o James and Lisbon Smith of no settled abode at Willoughton on 23 Jul 1854

And a possible death for Lilburn on freebmd - 1861 Mar qtr Lincoln (given that they don't seem to appear much on the earlier census' this might explain why we can't find her recorded).

There's a marriage at Nettleham 30 Dec 1861 for Levi s/o James Smith to Sarah (aged 20) d/o Barker Smith, witnesses Henry and Eliza Smith. I did wonder if Barker Smith could be a misheard Barthwell, and he does have a daughter Sarah of roughly the right age, but from reading other posts she seems to remain unmarried after this date. :confused:

Jo.

[JoanneM]

Beattie 1835 Mattersey Notts
James 1833 Croxton Keyrial
Levi 1837 Ingham Lincs
Sybrena 1838 Wittering Northants
Eliza 1842 Ingham Lincs
Miriam 1846 Marton Lincs

There a death on freebmd for Levi Smith aged 41 years Sep qtr 1878 Lincoln - this would fit bang on with a birth in 1837.

[JoanneM]

There's a marriage at Nettleham 30 Dec 1861 for Levi s/o James Smith to Sarah (aged 20) d/o Barker Smith, witnesses Henry and Eliza Smith. I did wonder if Barker Smith could be a misheard Barthwell, and he does have a daughter Sarah of roughly the right age, but from reading other posts she seems to remain unmarried after this date. :confused:

Been thinking.........

The Sarah that married Levi could be the daughter of Bathwell.

Bathwell's daughter Sarah is with him on the 1861 census, aged 18 and she was baptised in May so maybe just before her birthday, and so only a year out to be 20 in Dec of that year.

I can't find Levi and Sarah in 1871.

1881 and Bathwell's daughter Sarah is a housekeeper to an Isaac Robinson in North Hykeham (there's a thread on rootschat where she is positively identified). This Sarah is unmarried, but if she is the one who married Levi, and his death is the one in 1878 (likely) then she would be widowed in 1881. So if the person taking the census asked her "are you married?" she'd have replied "no" 'cos she wasn't, she was widowed. RG11; Piece: 3235; Folio: 98; Page: 15

The Fred and Bertie on the 1881 correspond to the sons of Henry/Harry supposed son of Bathwell as found on the 1871 RG10; Piece: 3456; Folio: 13; Page: 20 (Bertie now Barthwell). Christopher is probably another son as I think he's on the 1901 listed as brother to Bertie/Barthwell, now Bartholomew. RG13; Piece: 3029; Folio: 36; Page: 20

Back to Bathwell this time? Makes a change from everything leading back to Wisdom, I suppose. :confused:

Jo. :)

[babygirl101]

It certainly looks like a possible match doesn't it. There's a possible marriage for them on Free BMD Dec 1/4 1861 Lincoln, maybe the certificate's needed to rule that option in or out?

I've also looked on 1871 for them, but without any luck :confused:

BG :)

[babygirl101]

Ooooops sorry, just realised you've already posted the information about the marriage, so just ignore my last posting - too early in the morning for me, clearly.

BG :o

[JoanneM]

Back to Bathwell this time? Makes a change from everything leading back to Wisdom, I suppose. :confused:

Morning BG, :)

Maybe spoke too soon there.

Ingham baptisms:

20 Nov 1842 - Eliza d/o James and Lilborn Smith, abode Ingham, late of Stiff Clayton Bucks, traveller

So that would seem to link right back to Wisdom born c.1763 in Steeple Claydon. :confused: But is the link with James, Lilburn, or (most likely, I suppose) with both?

Jo.

[JoanneM]

One possible theory, Wisdom born c.1763 at Steeple Claydon had a daughter Unity/Eunice. She married a James Smith 1809 at South Witham Lincs. Most of their children were born in Lincolnshire, so they're in the right area (and they had a son named Isaiah bapt 1820 at Gosberton).

One of their children was James bapt 2 Sep 1810 at Hickling Notts. It doesn't appear that anyone knows what happened to him. It's about the right timeframe for him to be the James that is the husband of Lilburn, and would explain why he gave 'Stiff Clayton' as his abode.

Jo.

[babygirl101]

It looks like an excellent theory, but we have to be able to prove it somehow.

There's a member submitted entry on IGI for a James Smith which gives his spouse as Unity and his DoB of c1788, Gobserton Lincs, but of course, we've got to prove it. If it's right, then he was baptised at the same place as his son Isaiah, which again makes sense.

The other siblings I have for Isaiah are:-


William 1815 Kyme
Wisdom 1812 Woolsthorpe
Christian 1822 Dorrington

I'd already got a son James baptised at Hickling Notts for them, but hadn't made a connection, doh!!! I think that it could quite feasibly be the one who married Lilbourne, but it still leaves us not knowing who she is, yet!!!

BG :)

[JoanneM]

I'd already got a son James baptised at Hickling Notts for them, but hadn't made a connection, doh!!! I think that it could quite feasibly be the one who married Lilbourne, but it still leaves us not knowing who she is, yet!!!

It hangs together nicely, but goodness know how to prove it. :confused:

You'd think there's got to be a relationship between this Lilburn and Ammi and Hannah Smith who named a daughter Lilburn in Buckminster Leics is 1834 - possibly she's sister to one of them?

There's a Lilborn Dixon bapt 1828 at Belchford Lincs - don't recognise the surname Dixon, but it might be worth me checking it out in the parish registers just in case.

And then there's the Lilburn Smith on the IGI bapt 1853 Crofton Yorks d/o Hartley and Narcissa Smith, who I suspect goes on to partner Israel Smith s/o my Dennis Smith and Eleanor Charlotte.

It's such an unusual name that you'd think there's got to be a link between them.

Jo. :)

[JoanneM]

And then there's the Lilburn Smith on the IGI bapt 1853 Crofton Yorks d/o Hartley and Narcissa Smith, who I suspect goes on to partner Israel Smith s/o my Dennis Smith and Eleanor Charlotte.

It's such an unusual name that you'd think there's got to be a link between them.

So, going sideways, it's likely that there is a close relationship between Lilburn w/o James and the parents of Lilburn born c.1853. She's on the 1891 at Armley Leeds with Israel and their children (RG12; Piece: 3681; Folio 134; Page 10). Their eldest child is a son named Hartley.

They're on the 1871 at West Auckland, Durham, but under slightly different names. The son Hartley identifies them. RG10; Piece: 4935; Folio: 70; Page: 76

1871 Durham, West Auckland
Artleys Smith, head, 56, lab, born Rutland Freeby
Mary, wife, 48, born Lincoln Eppeth
Ellen, dau, 15, born York Bradford
Tamar, dau, 13, born York Emsell
Elias, son, 8, born York Wakefield
Mary A., dau, 6, born York Wakefield
Eliza, dau, 3, born York Wakefield
Zechariah Boson, head, 22, clothes peg maker, born York Condon?
Susanah, wife, 24, born York Leeds
Charlotte, dau, 8, born York Walmgate
Zechariah, son, 4, born York Walmgate
George, son, 1, born York Walmgate
Dinah Lander (?), sister, 14, born York Walmgate
John Smith, head, 18, clothes peg maker, born Lincolnshire Courting Linvey
Hannah, wife, 20, born York Wakefield
Artleys, son, 1, born York Pickering

(Love Courting Linvey for Kirton Lindsey - Israel obviously didn't have his teeth in that day :D).

I'd have thought that Artleys senior was the father of Lilburn, whether Mary is also Narcissa is anyones guess. If it is her I'd guess at Eppeth being Epworth in Lincolnshire.

This same Hartley is at Wuerdle and Wardle in 1881 - RG11; Piece: 4117; Folio: 135; Page: 25 and in 1861 is at Stanley cum Wrenthorpe along with Magnus Smith s/o Elijah Boswell and Alice Smith and his wife Mary d/o William Gray and Tabitha Smith. RG9; Piece: 3421; Folio: 14; Page: 10

Will have a look later and see if I can track down Hartley or Narcissa/Mary any earlier.

Jo. :)

[babygirl101]

Hmm, not sure at all about this one Jo to be honest, I've already got a Lilbourne in 1881, she appears as Selbourne, b 1853 Crofton, he's Isaac, b 1853, Kirton, clothes peg maker/wood turner - RG11, Piece 4487, Folio 158, Page 32.

It would make sense for Artleys to be Lilbourne's father, but I'm wondering if either the John or Hannah you've found in 1871 is another older son/daughter of Artleys???

BG :)

[babygirl101]

Meant to add, I've also got a possible death for Lilburn (the age matches). Dec 1/4 1897, Bramley, aged 47.

There's also a death for another Lilburn, no age given though, in Mar 1/4 1861, Lincoln 7a, 299, is there any chance of you checking that one out next time you're at the records office, again I'm sure that one's also connected.

BG :)

[JoanneM]

Hmm, not sure at all about this one Jo to be honest, I've already got a Lilbourne in 1881, she appears as Selbourne, b 1853 Crofton, he's Isaac, b 1853, Kirton, clothes peg maker/wood turner - RG11, Piece 4487, Folio 158, Page 32.

It would make sense for Artleys to be Lilbourne's father, but I'm wondering if either the John or Hannah you've found in 1871 is another older son/daughter of Artleys???

BG :)

That's the one's I think are Israel and Lilbourne (Israel having yet another change of name).

The Tennant Smith on the same page is Israel's brother, his wife Lucy is the daughter of Elijah Boswell and I forget which wife at the moment. Mary the cousin is, I think, the daughter of Israel Smith and Eliza Boswell, and as I suspect that her father is the brother of Dennis Smith, father of both Tennant and Israel, then that would indeed make her a cousin. John Charlotte is the uncle of these two and husband/partner of Mary. Arkless aged 13 is, I think, the young Artleys from 1871.

Jo. :)

[JoanneM]

There's also a death for another Lilburn, no age given though, in Mar 1/4 1861, Lincoln 7a, 299, is there any chance of you checking that one out next time you're at the records office, again I'm sure that one's also connected.

It's knowing which parish to look in which is the problem. I'll check the Lincoln St. Nicholas parish, which is the church that the folks from Dawsons Court use, but other than that it's guesswork.

I've been looking at the index for the NBI on FMP. Lilburn isn't listed but there is a burial for a Smith without a forename in Lincolnshire in 1861. Wonder if whoever transcribed it got defeated by her name? I haven't got any credits on FMP - don't suppose you know anyone with a subscription who could check it out?

I'm at the Archives tomorrow, so if we could find out I'll check it.

Jo. :)

(ps. if there's anything else you'd like me to look for tomorrow send me a PM). :)

[JoanneM]

don't suppose you know anyone with a subscription who could check it out?

Hi BG,

I've put a request on the Lincs board - hopefully someone with access to the NBI can give us some more info.

Jo.

[babygirl101]

The one on FMP for 1861 gives 7th Jan, All Saints, Nettleham, I've never used that search before so I'm not sure what else it should provide???

BG

[JoanneM]

The one on FMP for 1861 gives 7th Jan, All Saints, Nettleham, I've never used that search before so I'm not sure what else it should provide???

BG

Thanks, I'll check it out and let you know if it is her. If I'd been guessing at which parishes to check within the Lincoln district that's one I'd have chosen as there's a few baptisms and marriages there relating to these families.

That's all it should provide, but it's useful as a finding tool to determine which parish registers to look at.

Jo. :)

[JoanneM]

Hi BG,

Well the Nettleham parish register didn't give any more information - there was no forename given, and no age. (Wonder how many more that we're looking for are recorded like that |banghead|).

However, I'd got into town about 20 minutes before the Archives opened, and popped into the library to check the newspapers for this death.

From the Lincoln Chronicle dated 11 Jan 1861, in the 'deaths' column:

In the County Hospital on the 7th inst Lilburn Smith, gipsy, aged 50.

It's got to be her buried in Nettleham, even though the dates must be slightly out in either the paper or the parish register (unless she managed to die and be buried all on the same day :confused:).

So, we have her death now, and an approximate age.

Jo. :)

[JoanneM]

Forgot to add, Moses and Elderi Smith were in Reepham (just over 2 miles from Nettleham) on 13 Jan 1861 baptising son Walter, so it's possible that they were present at her funeral.

[babygirl101]

Thanks as always for checking that out, Jo. It does tie in with one I've got who was baptised in Wymeswold on 31.1.1813 d/o a gipsy, but no parents names are given sadly. The information you have definitely makes it appear that she was the w/o James and m/o Isaiah, especially as Isaiah and Selina had a daughter Lilban baptised 18.8.1869, Derbyshire, presumably named after her grandmother.


BG :)

[secnarf]

Jo

This is a very interesting find but it's giving me a real headache now. I've found some more siblings for Isaiah on IGI, but so far there's no trace of either his parents or siblings on the census returns, it looks as if they mysteriously vanished into the night:-


Beattie 1835 Mattersey Notts
James 1833 Croxton Keyrial
Levi 1837 Ingham Lincs
Sybrena 1838 Wittering Northants
Eliza 1842 Ingham Lincs
Miriam 1846 Marton Lincs

If anyone's got any ideas I'd love to know. Given mums unusual first name I'm 99.99% certain they're mine.

Thanks

BG :)

I think my gg grandmother Siberina was named after this Syberina. That is if there is any connection between Robert and Rhoda Smith. Will do some more work and see what I can come up with.

[secnarf]

On the 1871 Census I’ve just found –

HAWTHORN SMITH (b. 1818, Croxton Leicestershire) in a field adjacent to Cox Lane, Beeston Nottingham.

Travelling with him are:-
MENTA (1819, Syston, Leicestershire) (wife)

Unmarried children :–

EVE SMITH (b.1852), Kettleby,
MIRIAM SMITH, (b.1852), Rempston,
HAWTHORN SMITH (b.1856), Elton, Rutland
MADELINE SMITH (b.1862), Clipstone,

Travelling with them are:-

WILLIAM SMITH (b. 1939), Croxton Leicestershire
LOUISA SMITH (b.1843), Hempingham, Leicestershire

ISAIAH SMITH (b.1844), Saxilby, Lincolnshire
SELINA SMITH ( b. 1843), Exham, Rutland

Children:-

NOAH SMITH(b. 25.1.1865) Willoughby, Nottinghamshire
ISAIAH SMITH (b. 1867), Lincolnshire
HAWTHORN SMITH (b. 1871) Nottinghamshire

They are all clothes peg makers.

Do anyone know anything about these Smiths, I haven't had any luck as yet finding them on any other census returns? I have a couple of Hawthorn Smiths in my family, but not these!!

Thanks

BG

I have a Byra Minta Smith b 1820 married to Naptholi Smith. He was born in Leicestershire. Their daughter Adeliza married Nathaniel Booth. I haven't found Hawthorn yet, but looking at your posts I'm sure we're connecting to the same family.