Names of parents on birth certificates

[Lindad]

When a birth was registered by the mother, and a father's name is given, does anyone know what proof she had to provide that he really was the father?

If none, then surely there would be no illigitimate births as the mothers would all come up with a name, any name, for the father!

We have a couple of birth certificates that mention the name of both the father and the mother, and both births were registered by the mother. On both certificates she is described as Clara Hungerford (formerly Norris) and the father is described as Walter Hungerford. At the moment we are still struggling to find Walter and Clara's marriage which may have happened in Ireland (and so difficult to find!) or may never have happened!!

What is confusing us is that when Clara remarried several years later, she is described as Clara Norris, Spinster - ie. not Clara Hungerford, Widow. :confused:

Any ideas?

[Guy Etchells]

Under the English registration system people giving information are taken at there word, no proof was required.
Having said that in recent times the father of an illegitimate child must accompany the mother if he is to be acknowledged as the father of the child.
This does not stop mothers from registering their child with the same surname as the father just that the man's name cannot appear as the father.
I.E Sadie SMITH can call herself Sadie JONES and register her child as Tom JONES if she so wished without being married to Mr JONES.

Cheers
Guy

[Peggy]

You don't mention any dates. Have you found Walter and/or Clara on a census?

Peggy

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Having said that in recent times the father of an illegitimate child must accompany the mother if he is to be acknowledged as the father of the child.
Cheers
Guy


That reminds me of when my ex-husband and I went to Altrincham Register Office in 1969, to register the birth of our daughter. Being an old fashioned sort of person, I was rather shocked to find out that the Registrar thought we weren't married, because the two of us had gone together! :(

Just a funny snippet of info ..... Altrincham Register Office was 'taken over' by Sale Register Office and in 1976 when I married my second husband at Sale ...... it was the same Registrar! :D

[busyglen]

Following this in a similar vein, I have a problem with my g.g.Grandfather. (Dont we all) :)

He was John JARVIS, b. c1823 and I know not where! He married Emma Sophia ROBBINS in Buckingham, Bucks in 1842 and was at that time a 19yr old soldier. The marriage certificate gives his father as John GREEN!! Now I have actually come across a couple of Green-Jarvis' but they don't tie up. I am now left with a) assuming he was illegitimate or b) the registrar put the wrong name. Can anyone suggest how I can go about this? The marriage took place in 1842 and I have searched the 1851 Census for them without a trace. Baptisms in Buckingham doesn't reveal an Emma Robbins, but an Eliza was born the same year (1823) to a couple with the same name I believe her parents to be. I `assume' this is Emma who later changed her name, perhaps because she didn't like Eliza. Of John JARVIS, there is no trace in Buckingham at the same time.

Their son (my g.grandfather) Alfred Strong JARVIS was born in Buckingham
in 1846. I can find no trace of his parents so far on any 1851 or 1861 Census, and now believe Emma may have died in childbirth. I think John may have also died before 1851, as Alfred later gives his place of birth as Kensington where it is possible he may have lived with relatives. If only I could find out something relating to John & Emma, I may be able to sort this out....or maybe never! :( HELP!

Glenys.

[Geoffers]

John JARVIS, b. c1823 and I know not where! He married Emma Sophia ROBBINS in Buckingham, Bucks in 1842 and was at that time a 19yr old soldier. The marriage certificate gives his father as John GREEN!!......Can anyone suggest how I can go about this?........I have searched the 1851 Census for them without a trace.Of course, if John Jarvis was a soldier, he could well have been posted abroad in 1851. Have you tried to obtain his service record from TNA at Kew? This should record his date and place of birth, next of kin.

If John Jarvis was posted abroad, then other children may have been born outside the UK. In this case, you might search:

Indexes to Regimental Registers of Births 1761-1924

and

Index to (Army) Chaplians' Returns of Births, and Marriages, and Deaths 1796-1880

Also, if John Jarvis served and was pensioned before 1858, he should appear on TNA's online catalogue (what used to be known as PROCAT)
http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp
Enter his name in field 1 'Word or phrase' and in field 3 'Department or Series Code' enter 'WO'.

Geoffers
Charlbury, Oxfordshire

[busyglen]

Thank you Geoffers,

I must admit I didn't think about the on-line catalogue so thank you for that, I will have a look.

I did think of Kew, but it is difficult for me to get to London...I also want to get my fathers Royal Marine papers, but haven't been able to sort that either. Never mind.

I have a strong feeling that John, didn't live abroad with Emma and was possibly posted abroad shortly after they married, hence no children until 1846. He could have served overseas for several years as they did in those days. He was not in the Army when Alfred was born, as shown as a Labourer. Possibly injured, which is why I think he died before 1851. Still, speculation is part of the game! :)

Thanks for your input which is really appreciated.

Glenys.

[Jude]

Under the English registration system people giving information are taken at there word, no proof was required.
Having said that in recent times the father of an illegitimate child must accompany the mother if he is to be acknowledged as the father of the child.
This does not stop mothers from registering their child with the same surname as the father just that the man's name cannot appear as the father.
I.E Sadie SMITH can call herself Sadie JONES and register her child as Tom JONES if she so wished without being married to Mr JONES.

Cheers
Guy
I have a certificate (possibly for a great grandmother) in which the father's name is given and he registered the birth. The mother's name is simply given as Emma R***** not the same as the father's. The child is given her surname as one of her given names. I assume that she was illegitimate, but would like to know which surname she was likely to have used. Forgive the deliberate vagueness over names, but it was a titled family who might not wish to acknowledge such a blot on their escutcheon!
Jude.

[Peter Goodey]

"The marriage certificate gives his father as John GREEN!! Now I have actually come across a couple of Green-Jarvis' but they don't tie up. I am now left with a) assuming he was illegitimate or b) the registrar put the wrong name"

Or...that John GREEEN was his step-father.

[Guy Etchells]

I have a certificate (possibly for a great grandmother) in which the father's name is given and he registered the birth. The mother's name is simply given as Emma R***** not the same as the father's. The child is given her surname as one of her given names. I assume that she was illegitimate, but would like to know which surname she was likely to have used. Forgive the deliberate vagueness over names, but it was a titled family who might not wish to acknowledge such a blot on their escutcheon!
Jude.

Without knowing details it is hard to reply, I cannot see any reason for trying to hide public information.
One thing you can be certain of a titled family will certainly have had various pedigrees published by various sources and these would certainly show illegitimacy where it occurred.
It is nothing to be ashamed of and dangerous to hide, such secrecy is the cause of many problems.

In this particular case was the mother using her maiden name or did her Christian names include her mother’s surname? This could give the impression of a Christian and surname being used when in reality two Christian names were shown for the mother.

You note that the child has been given a surname as a Christian name; it could be a family tradition.
I for instance have my mother’s maiden surname as my only Christian name.
Cheers
Guy

[busyglen]

Actually that thought did occur to me at some stage Peter, but I couldn't work out in my mind how this would work! He gave his name as Jarvis on the marriage cert. and all the subsequent family line down is Jarvis. IF, John Green was his step-father, why would he put that name down on the certificate and not his real father? I suppose he could have just forgotten. It certainly doesn't help in tracing John Jarvis, as I don't know where he was born for a start. If I could only find a starting point it would help, but as he was born pre-1837 it's difficult. I keep checking FreeBMD in the hopes that something will turn up one day, but Jarvis (and Green) are such common names (not that I consider myself `common') ;) that it's difficult to know where to start.

Thanks for your input, it's refreshed my mind as to an alternative. :)

Glenys.