Farmer 19 acres?

[busyglen]

My maternal gt.gt. grandfather, William Ladd, born Sutton, Kent, 1799 was shown as a Farmer of 19 acres with one employee, on the 1851 Census. This farm was in Sholden, Kent which is the area where two more generations lived, before moving into Deal.

By the 1861 Census he is living with his wife in Albert Place, Deal, and still a farmer. His son Stephen, is shown as living in Sholden as an agricultural labourer with his wife and children.

In 1873 William commits suicide:Newspaper Report 24th Apr. 1873.
"Suicide at Sholden. An inquest was held at the Sportsman Public House Sholden, upon the body of a retired farmer named William Ladd who had destroyed himself in his own bedroom on Sunday morning. Louisa Ladd said "the deceased was my grandfather and aged 74 years. On Sunday morning last I went into his bedroom and found him hanging from the bed post" The jury were unanimous in returning as their verdict that the deceased hanged himself in a state of mental derangement.

From a later discussion with my Grandfather years ago, it appears that he took vegetables and produce to people from his `small holding' during hard times, and a lot of people couldn't pay, so he run into debt.

I am now somewhat confused! Would he have possibly owned the farm, or would he have rented it? I have been trying to find a Will, to discover if he owned it and it passed down to son Stephen, but at the moment I haven't been able to trace anything. However, Stephen is shown as living in the Farm house, in Sholden on the 1881 Census as a Farmer with 20 acres and 1 man, and appears to be still there in 1891. This would appear then to be the family farm?? Stephen dies in 1892 of a heart attack,due to stress, and my Grandfather tries to help as a small boy. From then on everything is sketchy, and I can't seem to find anything else about the farm.

I suspect that if it was the family farm, the youngsters couldn't keep it going and it was later sold if if was owned.

Does anyone know how I could find out anything further?

Glenys

[Barbara Wilkinson]

I hesitate to suggest this - because I know nothing about them! - but what about tithe maps, or Valuation Office maps. The bits and pieces I have looked at about them suggest that they should show the ownership of the land, the tenant, etc - but, as I say, I don't really know if they will help!
Some of the information for Kent seems to be on-line if you google.
I may be leading you right up the garden path here, Glenys, but might be worth a shot!

[busyglen]

I hesitate to suggest this - because I know nothing about them! - but what about tithe maps, or Valuation Office maps. The bits and pieces I have looked at about them suggest that they should show the ownership of the land, the tenant, etc - but, as I say, I don't really know if they will help!
Some of the information for Kent seems to be on-line if you google.
I may be leading you right up the garden path here, Glenys, but might be worth a shot!

Hi Barbara,

I'm glad of any thoughts so please don't worry!

I did find something about tithe maps, on a thread that Geoffers had posted a while back, on a similar issue. I did look at the links he gave at the NA but I got totally lost. From memory, I think they related to an earlier period, but I may have been mistaken, so I'll go back and have another look. Thanks.

I don't really know what I am expecting to find, but I would like to know how the family fared. My Grandfather died aged 96 in the 1970s and I used to glean bits of information now and again, but of course being younger, I didn't really take so much notice of it all. Typical! At least I got my mother to write her life down, which helped!

Glenys

[busyglen]

Barbara, what search criteria did you use? I've tried, but got lost amongst the various maps etc.

I've also discovered that the link Geoffers left on another thread, just goes to the main Archive search page, so I can't read any more!

Never mind, I think I would have to go to view any of these records, which is not feasible at the moment.

Glenys

[Barbara Wilkinson]

Hi Glenys
Very unsophisticated search - tithe maps!
That brought up - amongst others - the National Archives site, which had some background information.
I then tried - tithe maps Kent - and that brought up the website Kent maps and tithe award schedules
http://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Research/Maps/Maps%20intro.htm
which lists the various parishes or villages and - from clicking on one, gives names of owners and occupiers.
I looked for Sholden and it was not there, but I am not at all familiar with Kent; there may be another parish name which might help.
I hope I'm not setting you up for hours of following links all over the place - with no real information at the end ....!!!

[Mutley]

Glenys,
There is an 1873 Return of Owners of Land. I believe they cover most counties. It lists every person in the county who owned 1 acre of land or more.

You would have to google for the Kent one. I don't think much has been transcribed on line yet.

Pigot's directory of Kent 1840 does not include Sholden, I looked in Deal and Dover but it does not seem to have any farmers in the trades mentioned. Maybe a later directory might.

[busyglen]

Thanks Barbara that's kind of you. I'll have a look later, unfortunately I've run out of time today.

I really appreciate you looking for me. :)

Glenys

[busyglen]

Thanks for your help Mutley. I will see what I can turn up.

I appreciate you looking for me, will let you know if I find anything. ;)

Glenys

[AnnB]

Hello Glen

The Kent 1873 Return of Owners of Land is available from Parish Chest, if you feel like splashing out :)

Have you found William Ladd on his farm in 1841? I have had a quick look and he was described as a Farmer then.

Best wishes
Ann

[Colin Moretti]

It would be worth getting hold of a copy (from your library?) of Maps for Family and Local History by Beech & Mitchell (TNA). It tells inter alia how to research three land surveys, the mid 19th C Tithe Commission, the Valuation Office survey of 1910-15 and the National Farm Survey of England & Wales, 1941-3. The first two at least should be relevant.

TNA (of course) also has a guidance leaflet or two:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=304
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=102 and
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=100

Colin

[Peter Goodey]

Glenys

Have a look at the Kent Libraries catalogue for the Return of Owners of Land (I agree with others that it's worth checking). There are several copies scattered around the libraries of Kent. They may be reference only but I didn't check all the entries. You should be able to find a copy near you.

[busyglen]

Hello Glen

The Kent 1873 Return of Owners of Land is available from Parish Chest, if you feel like splashing out :)

Have you found William Ladd on his farm in 1841? I have had a quick look and he was described as a Farmer then.

Best wishes
Ann

Thanks for that Ann. |hug| That is the year William died, so possibly worth a look. I'll look to see what pennies I can spare. ;)

Yes I do have the 1841 thanks.

Glen

[busyglen]

Thanks for that Colin. With all of this information flooding in, I shall have plenty to keep me busy! It's really appreciated.

Glenys

[busyglen]

Glenys

Have a look at the Kent Libraries catalogue for the Return of Owners of Land (I agree with others that it's worth checking). There are several copies scattered around the libraries of Kent. They may be reference only but I didn't check all the entries. You should be able to find a copy near you.

Thanks Peter,

I had been thinking along those lines, although I only started on this yesterday, and piecing the bits together led me to wonder if the family did own the land.

I have a lot of clues as to where to search now, so thank you and everyone for your help. |hug|

Glenys

[janbooth]

Glenys,

From the Return of Owners Land 1873:

Name of Owner: LAD Stn
Address: Sholden
Extent of Lands: 8 A (acres?) 2 R (roods?) 24 P (perches?)
Gross Estimated Rental: £28. 15s

HTH

Janet

[michaelpipe]

1882 Kelly's directory.

Sholden: LADD, Stephen Newby, farmer, Church Lane Farm.

1847, History, Gazetteer & Directory of Kent, Vol. II, LADD Wm, FARMER

1855 Post Office Directory, LADD W, 9 Albert Place, Deal, FARMER

Entries listing them as Farmer would most probably indicate landowner as opposed to tennant, but needs checking.
Michael

[busyglen]

Glenys,

From the Return of Owners Land 1873:

Name of Owner: LAD Stn
Address: Sholden
Extent of Lands: 8 A (acres?) 2 R (roods?) 24 P (perches?)
Gross Estimated Rental: £28. 15s

HTH

Janet

Wow, thanks Jan and Michael! |hug|

I've just returned home after a very tiring day being stuck on the M25 both going and coming back home and feel shattered! I turn on my pc and check the posts and there are the two from you and Michael. I am so grateful to you both, especially as I haven't had time to do any more searching since yesterday.

This is son Stephen Ladd in 1873, who took over from Dad, and this is the year he committed suicide. As it says `Rental' I am assuming that he rented the land and not owned it. Would others agree with this?

The thing that is confusing me (especially with the Post Office Directory entry) is that William appeared to be living and gave the address of Albert Place, Deal, whereas the farm appears to have been in Church Lane, Sholden.

Stephen appears to be living there most of the time, so perhaps Dad paid the rental, and lived in Deal. This is a real puzzle:confused: If William owned the farm, then it could make sense that Stephen lived there and ran it for him, whilst Dad went back home to Deal. (Only a few miles away).

Oh well....food for thought, I'll spend a bit more time over the next few days trying to find a solution.

Again my thanks for everyone's input, it has all helped.

Glenys :)

[busyglen]

Can I ask another question that is relevant to this post, although on a slightly different topic.

Thanks to lots of help, I have been able to paint a bit of a picture now regarding William Ladd and son. I had completely forgotten that I had the History, Gazeteer & Directory of Kent, which showed Wm. Ladd, Farmer. When I purchased this a couple of years ago, I was looking for people on the Island, so it didn't click that it could be a place to search for details of William as a Farmer.

However, this led me to go through all of my CDs that I purchased from BG and I came across another one I had forgotten. Poll for the Knights of the Shire, Kent 1857. I searched for Sholden and sure enough there was William Ladd, Farmer. This now brings me on to my question.

As I understand it (please correct me if I am wrong) this was a list of land owners and property owners, who were eligible to vote. So....can I assume that William was a land owner, and didn't rent the land for the farm?

The details that Janet found in the Return of Owners of Land 1873 showed son Stephen Ladd as owner, with an estimated rental figure. This is what is confusing me a bit, as it is listed in the return of owners, but there is this mention of a rental figure. As this is the year his father William died, I don't quite understand why Stephen suddenly is listed as owner, if he rents it. I haven't been able to trace a Will so far, and as William committed suicide, possibly he didn't make one anyway.

Is anyone able to straighten me out a bit with this please? I've been doing some different searches to try and gain some more info myself, but I am probably looking in all of the wrong places. The fact that William, and then son Stephen, appear in all the directories, returns and polls, I am inclined to think that they owned the farm, but I don't want to assume, as this wont help. :confused:

Glenys

[janbooth]

Glenys,

All the Owners on the 1873 CD have an estimated rental value, so from that I just assumed that the powers that be estimated what the rental value of the land owned would be - does that make sense?? Perhaps someone with a greater knowledge of the 1873 disc will be able to confirm this assumption.

Janet

[AnnB]

Hello Glen

I have found an explanation of all the various bits of the 1873 Return of Owners of Land - bit heavy going, but it might just answer your question! I don't know if I should post the link here so will e-mail you with it :)

Ann

[busyglen]

Thanks Ann, have now received it. :)

Strangely enough, I had already found the same piece earlier this morning and spent ages pouring over it, only to come to the conclusion, that it still didn't prove whether he owned the land or not. There was a bit towards the end, that said sometimes, it wasn't possible to be sure whether the land was owned or rented. Sigh!!

Having found William Ladd,(with help) in Bagshaws 1847 Gazetteer & Directory of Kent, The PO Directory of 1855, and the Poll for the Knights 1857.....plus Stephen Ladd in the Return of the Owners of Land 1873, and Kellys Directory 1882, I am of the opinion that they owned the land....but..if they did, it would have probably had to be sold when Stephen died, but I don't know what sort of records if any would be kept to show this. Wish I had listened more to my Grandfather, when he was alive, but then I was in my early 20s and not really interested in that sort of thing then!

Thanks again for your help Ann, I appreciate it. :)

Glen

[busyglen]

Glenys,

All the Owners on the 1873 CD have an estimated rental value, so from that I just assumed that the powers that be estimated what the rental value of the land owned would be - does that make sense?? Perhaps someone with a greater knowledge of the 1873 disc will be able to confirm this assumption.

Janet

Thanks for that information Jan, I understand what you are saying. I googled the `Return of Owners Land 1873' and found a complete guide and information, which is very informative. Ann also found it as well. Unfortunately, it has left me non the wiser. :confused:

I did wonder if the Poll for the Knights of the Shire 1857, listed only the businessmen/owners eligible to vote, or whether it included non-owners as well. Can't find anything to substantiate it either way at the moment.

Glenys

[salcat]

Would the estimated rental value have something to do with calculating taxes due? The old system of rates in the UK had a similar basis - the ratable value was originally the rental value, which then became fixed at a certain date (no idea when) and the rates payable were £x times the ratable value.

Just a thought

Sally

[busyglen]

Hi Sally,

I've found information about this now, and although things changed now and again, it would appear that the annual gross estimated rental, is not the amount of rent paid to the person under whose name as owner it appears, but the amount of the entire rents which the occupying tenants of the whole property would be presumed to pay to their immediate lessors.

In the case of pure agricultural land, it is intended to show the rent at which the property might be expected to be let from year to year. It isn't a set figure. It all seems very complex, especially when one is not sure whether the person we are looking at is the owner, or the lessee.

Thanks for your input Sally. :)

Glenys

[busyglen]

Well...even more things evolving with William. I checked the Kellys Directory for 1824 for Deal, and found William as the prop. of the 5 Bells Public House in Queen St. Deal. Quite a change from that to Farmer later! I also found his name in the same directory for a Bakers in Sandwich! So....he looks to have had quite a few irons in the fire to start with.

Glenys

[Colin Moretti]

... I did wonder if the Poll for the Knights of the Shire 1857, listed only the businessmen/owners eligible to vote, or whether it included non-owners as well. Can't find anything to substantiate it either way at the moment.

GlenysThis might help

http://www.victorianweb.org/history/hist2.html

Colin

[busyglen]

This might help

http://www.victorianweb.org/history/hist2.html

Colin

Thank you so much for that Colin, it has been a great help! |hug|


Glenys

[busyglen]

It just goes to show that it pays to ask family for information!

Trying to discover the correct birth place and father of William Ladd has led me all over the place, and yesterday I suddenly recalled that a cousin of mine and I share the same line and he had done research on this quite a few years ago. So....I emailed him to check on some information, and he came back with a chronological list of events in the life of our Grandfather Lewis Ladd (Stephen Ladd being his father). I had most of the information, but there in black and white it shows that in 1892 Stephen died aged 57, and in 1896 they sold the smallholding! So....they did own the property!

We are now getting together and pooling our information, as we have both discovered different facts which will put more meat on the bones, for both of us.

Thanks for all the help given, it's been really appreciated, and we both now have the listings of the various directories etc. that support the facts now.

|hug| to all.

Glenys

[idredge]

Looking for information do you know if the house is still standing today, or even if the deed (indentures) are logged with the local history centre. I only mention this because I have found with my family and only this year after nearly 10 years of searching that indentures for property will have wills and other information which should help. (feoffment a mode of conveying a freehold estate by a formal transfer of possession) this is when someone dies and does not leave a will, not sure if I have the spelling right though. So if you can find out if the house is still standing today, and if there are any deeds that go with it then you may just get lucky like I did.

See if there is a community web site (I did this) and see if someone local can help. If you do find something and get an address send an sae with stamp, we sent 3 the main one replied which we got a lot of information from, the other emailed but I didn't hear anymore and the 3rd which I am also very interested in didn't reply. I hope one day that we will get some answers from that house though.

Oh and just a thought would not the rental cost be like our old rates you would get an estimated rental cost if you were to rent it out and that was the way they collected rates. Another way of seeing how much people were worth as well and how much they could collect from them. I don't think that is what they would have paid but what they would have received if they were to rent it out. Someone correct me if I am wrong please.

Irene