Help seeking information

[sue norman]

Seeking information about my husbands grandfather Sapper Thomas Norman service no 2346 Royal Engineers 2nd/2nd Hants Fortress Coy died 17 November 1915 buried in a cwgrave in St Mary's Churchyard Selborne Hants.
What does 2nd/2nd Fortress Coy mean?
We believe he was at the Western Front but would like to learn whereabouts.
Have looked at campaign medal index but the thomas Normans that are listed do not have the same service no could his service no be incorrect?Would think he would have received a medal of some sort.
Thomas's brother was Harry Norman and he has campaign medals he was killed in February 1915 and is buried in poperinghe cemetery belgium.
Would be grateful if someone could advise us where to look for information on the Royal Engineers movements ?
Thanks in advance
Sue & John Norman

[Geoffers]

Seeking information about my husbands grandfather Sapper Thomas Norman service no 2346 Royal Engineers 2nd/2nd Hants Fortress Coy died 17 November 1915 buried in a cwgrave in St Mary's Churchyard Selborne Hants.
If you search the Documentsonline website, you'll see that one entry for a Thomas NORMAN relates to a Sapper 778 - select this and a second regimental number is given 448364. The last four digits seem very close to those you have and there may possibly have been some confusion somewhere. Whether you think it worthwhile paying to see the medal card is up to you.

If he did not enter a theatre of war, then he may not have qualified for a medal. see http://www.1914-1918.net/ for details of qualification for campaign medals.

Would be grateful if someone could advise us where to look for information on the Royal Engineers movements ?
The National Archives at Kew will have some records, but you might do better first trying the Royal Engineers museum:
http://www.army.mod.uk/royalengineers/museum/
The website has contact details.

Geoffers

[sue norman]

Thanks very much Geoffers for your advice
I have tried documents online as you suggest but could not find the thomas norman royal engineers that tallied with the 778 you gave me instead i found 83 thomas normans which didn't match either.I must be doing something wrong?
Will look at the other websites later on hopefully will find a lead!
Thanks again

[peter nicholl]

Hi Sue
As Thomas was buried in England and if my own experience is anything to go by, you should be able to get a "normal" Death Certificate from the GRO. You may have done so already, but if not, they are more informative than the "Died France and Flanders" ones. If you can get on to the 1914-1918 website, as suggested by Geoffers, you should also find details of when and how Service Numbers were issued.
:cool: Being No Expert, but Highly Opinionated, I would suggest that in the same way that the Royal Artillery was divided between the Royal Garrison Artillery, with the really big guns and the lighter and more mobile Royal Field Artillery, so the RE was divided between the Field Companies, mobile and used for clearing minefields, supporting Infantry, etc and the Fortress Companies used to build (and destroy?) large fortified positions (fortresses ? :) ).

The Hants Fortress Coy seems to have been in the Southampton/Isle of Wight area and it may be worth seeing if there is a present day TA Company in the area which might be able to throw some light on the history.

Regards
Peter

[sue norman]

Hi Sue
As Thomas was buried in England and if my own experience is anything to go by, you should be able to get a "normal" Death Certificate from the GRO. You may have done so already, but if not, they are more informative than the "Died France and Flanders" ones. If you can get on to the 1914-1918 website, as suggested by Geoffers, you should also find details of when and how Service Numbers were issued.
:cool: Being No Expert, but Highly Opinionated, I would suggest that in the same way that the Royal Artillery was divided between the Royal Garrison Artillery, with the really big guns and the lighter and more mobile Royal Field Artillery, so the RE was divided between the Field Companies, mobile and used for clearing minefields, supporting Infantry, etc and the Fortress Companies used to build (and destroy?) large fortified positions (fortresses ? :) ).

The Hants Fortress Coy seems to have been in the Southampton/Isle of Wight area and it may be worth seeing if there is a present day TA Company in the area which might be able to throw some light on the history.

Regards
Peter
Hi Peter
Thanks for your info Ihaven't got Thomas Norman's death certificate but will obtain it as you say it may help things along.
As you are all aware I'm new to this so you have to make allowances for me I'm not thick really honest!
Also I'm getting to grips with this forum business its my first time I don't have a lot of time to read all the details so I'm just hoping for the best really and that one of you kind people will point me in the right direction.
This is a big subject but very interesting to learn about.
Is it true that the sappers were the first soldiers to be issued with grenades?
Sue

[Geoffers]

I have tried documentsonline as you suggest but could not find the thomas norman royal engineers that tallied with the 778 you gave me instead i found 83 thomas normans which didn't match either.I must be doing something wrong?
Search under the name you have, in the field marked 'Corps' enter 'Royal Engineers' in rank enter 'Sapper' and date period limit the range to 1914 and 1915. You should get two hits, the second one has the number '77'8. Click on 'See details and you'll see the second number that I mentioned.

Let me know if you still get stuck

Geoffers

[Peter Goodey]

"Is it true that the sappers were the first soldiers to be issued with grenades?"
Er...would you believe - the grenadiers? :D

[sue norman]

Search under the name you have, in the field marked 'Corps' enter 'Royal Engineers' in rank enter 'Sapper' and date period limit the range to 1914 and 1915. You should get two hits, the second one has the number '77'8. Click on 'See details and you'll see the second number that I mentioned.

Let me know if you still get stuck

Geoffers
Hi Geoffers
Right I know what is wrong now you know where it says first name is that surname or christian name because i have been putting in thomas under first name and last name Norman whereas you have been doing it the other way around.Are you right or is it me probably me I guess.
I'm searching for Thomas (christian name) Norman surname I would like to get the right one or most likeliest one if possible.
Just tell me if I'm being an idiot ok
Thanks
Sue

[sue norman]

"Is it true that the sappers were the first soldiers to be issued with grenades?"
Er...would you believe - the grenadiers? :D
Hee Hee showing my ignorance again!
Thanks
Sue

[peter nicholl]

Sorry to be a Party Pooper but .....
Grenades seem to have been first used in Europe shortly after the introduction of Gunpowder and were used in close combat and/or dropped from castle walls. So, they may have been first used by the forebears of the Sappers. Their use seems to have fallen away as firearms became more to the fore. They were re-introduced by Napoleon who used "big lads" to throw the heavy and not too reliable ones at the enemy. The idea was taken up by other countries, including GB and so our Grenadier Guards were formed. After a while the grenadiers were absorbed into the infantry and although their size and uniform still marked them out, the grenade itself did not come back into its own until early in the 20th Century. They were used to deadly effect in the war between Russia and Japan. At the start of the Great War, grenade-wise, the Germans seem to have stolen the march on the British, who in reply seem to have made their own in things like jam jars/tins until the Mills Bomb, introduced around 1915, became more widely available. By this time the Grenadier Guards were very "infantry" and did not want the "new" grenadiers to be called grenadiers and so you will find references to "Bombers" instead. As the Sappers were part of the assault troops and used to demolish enemy defensive positions, they may well have been the first on the British side to use grenades in earnest.
Peter

[Geoffers]

I'm searching for Thomas (christian name) Norman surname I would like to get the right one or most likeliest one if possible.
Sorry, cockup at my end. In this case, it would seem possible that he did not serve abroad and so was not entitled to campaign medals. If he was in the Hants Fortress Company, 'tis a passing thought that he may have served at Southsea Castle or one of the other shore establishments. Have you obtained his death certificate, which may throw further light on posting as well as cause.

Geoffers
Charlbury, Oxfordshire

[sue norman]

Sorry, cockup at my end. In this case, it would seem possible that he did not serve abroad and so was not entitled to campaign medals. If he was in the Hants Fortress Company, 'tis a passing thought that he may have served at Southsea Castle or one of the other shore establishments. Have you obtained his death certificate, which may throw further light on posting as well as cause.

Geoffers
Charlbury, Oxfordshire
Thanks Geoffers
Yes I'm going to have to obtain the death certificate but he is buried in a wargrave in Selborne next door to the family plot.
i thought he may have served abroad because his brother Harry Norman 5833 served with the 12th Prince of Wales Royal Lancers and he died on 24/02/1915 Harry is buried in Poperinghe cemetery Belgium he disembarked on 15/8/1914 we know more about Harry's war than Thomas's who was my husband's grandfather harry great uncle.
Another brother Jasper drowned on the Lusitania in May 1915 so it was tragic for that family.There was 12 children in all 7 of them died 1914/15 what a waste but thet were just one like most families of that time.
Anyway I thought they all had to go abroad to serve wasn't there a shortage of men then?
Sue

[Guy Etchells]

Service numbers changed in the great war , they were not fixed as in later times, a change of regiment would mean a change of number.
Cheers
Guy

[sue norman]

Service numbers changed in the great war , they were not fixed as in later times, a change of regiment would mean a change of number.
Cheers
Guy
Thank you Guy
Well I've now sent off for the death certificate so hopefully it may shed some light on things.Will let you all know the outcome when I receive it!!!
Sue

[peter nicholl]

Hi Sue
I came across this while looking into the death of one of my relatives. He was with the Rifle Brigade and they along with the Hampshire Regiment and the Somerset Light Infantry were to carry out the above attack. They would be supported by, amongst others, the 7th Field Company RE. The Orders for the RE were
" The two sections RE detailed to assist the Eleventh Infantry Brigade will be disposed as follows:- 16 men with first line troops as above, with crowbars, Hand Grenades, etc, to break in any houses found occupied by the GERMANS- 2nd party with material for making good defences gained will come forward with the supporting line- 3rd party will make good the communications as soon as the objective is attained. "

The attack failed.......

Peter

[sue norman]

Thank you Peter for your info
Where was Ploegsteert Wood? Sounds Belgian?
Did the RE stay with their own field company or were they moved about where the need was greatest?
I say this because Thomas was supposed to be with the 2nd/2nd whatever that means?
I'm showing my ignorance again What is a Field Company?Did they dig the trenches sounds horrible Before the war started Thomas was a bricklayer and he was married with 3 young children but he was one of the first to join up.They didn't know what they were letting themselves in for its very sad.But it is right that they all should be remembered and lessons learnt.
Thanks
Sue

[Geoffers]

Where was Ploegsteert Wood? Sounds Belgian?
Ploegsteert is in Belgium, near the French broder. It's just north of Armentieres - and south of Ieper (Ypres). It should show up using an online map such as Michelin.

[Thomas was supposed to be with the 2nd/2nd]

2nd/2nd usually refers to 2nd battalion/2nd regiment

Geoffers
CHarlbury, Oxfordshire

[peter nicholl]

Hi Sue
If you go to the Commonwealth War Graves Commission (CWGC) website and go for location, rather than Casualty and type in Ploegsteert, or Rifle House Cemeteries then detailed directions are listed. As for the trenches, then later on in the War it was the Labour Corps, predecessor to the Pioneer Corps.
Regards
Peter

[sue norman]

Thanks Peter and Geoffers
I'm still waiting for Thomas's death certificate to arrive from the GRO hopefully it may have a few clues on it!
Sue

[Guy Etchells]

As it happens Two Men in a Trench series mentioned a find of a piece of an early grnade when explaining one of the finds on the Killicrankie dig.
Apparently they were used in the battle.
The battle of Killicrankie was where Bonnie Dundee (Bloody Clavers) beat a superior English force (outnumbered 2 to 1).
The english led by Hugh Mackay though heavily outnumbering the jacobites and out gunning them had poor close quarter armaments and unable to stop the jacobite charge fell victims to the well armed highlanders.
Cheers
Guy

[sue norman]

As it happens Two Men in a Trench series mentioned a find of a piece of an early grnade when explaining one of the finds on the Killicrankie dig.
Apparently they were used in the battle.
The battle of Killicrankie was where Bonnie Dundee (Bloody Clavers) beat a superior English force (outnumbered 2 to 1).
The english led by Hugh Mackay though heavily outnumbering the jacobites and out gunning them had poor close quarter armaments and unable to stop the jacobite charge fell victims to the well armed highlanders.
Cheers
Guy
Hi everyone
I have now got a copy of Thomas Norman's death cetificate which states that he died on 17/11/1915 in Alexandria Hospital Cosham cause of death Pneumonia 6 days.
Was this hospital a military one?I believe its in Portsmouth.
I'm sure he did go to France could he have been shipped back due to his illness.Did they used to do that with the soldiers?
As he is in a cwg surely he must have gone over to France like his brother?
There is no service number on the death certificate just Sapper Hants Fortress R.E. and a private j Heyes was present at the death.
Have I come to the end of the line trying to find if Thomas did go to France?
Would appreciate your comments
Regards
Sue

[Geoffers]

I have now got a copy of Thomas Norman's death cetificate which states that he died on 17/11/1915 in Alexandria Hospital Cosham cause of death Pneumonia 6 days.I'm sure he did go to France could he have been shipped back due to his illness.Did they used to do that with the soldiers?Yes, soldiers suffering from illness/injury were shipped back to the UK.

As he is in a cwg surely he must have gone over to France like his brother?Not necessarily - however - the following record in the medal card index has a regimental number very similar to the one you originally posted:

Medal Card of NORMAN, Thomas P.
Corps:
Royal Engineers 105659 Sapper
Royal Engineers WR252446 Sapper

Geoffers
Charlbury, Oxfordshire

[sue norman]

Yes, soldiers suffering from illness/injury were shipped back to the UK.

Not necessarily - however - the following record in the medal card index has a regimental number very similar to the one you originally posted:

Medal Card of NORMAN, Thomas P.
Corps:
Royal Engineers 105659 Sapper
Royal Engineers WR252446 Sapper

Geoffers
Charlbury, Oxfordshire
Thanks Geoffers
I,ve looked at the medal card of Thomas P norman and I'm satisfied that hes the one.
Thanks for your help .Thanks to all
Cheers
Sue

[Terry Waters-Marsh]

Sue,

Illness claimed almost as many lives during WW1 as did battle. In the Middle East, Africa and Mesopotamia more lives were lost to illness than battle - common fatal illnesses included TB, Dysentery, Cholera, Typhoid, Pneumonia and perhaps the worst of all, Malaria. Infections were also a big killer as it was not until WW2 that penicillin and antibiotics started to make their mark.

[sue norman]

Thanks Terry
What I have thought about since is as Thomas had a young family would his wife have got a pension after his death and when were the medals issued?
Does anyone know if there are records kept of military hospitals at that time?
Also could he have got the pneumonia from being gassed wasn't there mustard gas about at that time?
Sorry for all my questions its just how my brain works!
Cheers
Sue

[Terry Reeves]

Sorry to throw a spanner in the works, but Thomas P Norman cannot be your man. The second number, with the WR prefix, belonged to a man who served with an Inland Waterways, Docks or Railway Company, and in some instances to men serving with Quarrying and Road Companies. The WR prefix was not introduced until 1916-17. If he was entitled to campaign medals, any changes of number would have been noted on his medal index card, starting with his original number.

2/2nd Hampshire Fortress Company was a second line Territorial Force Unit. With the rapid expansion of the TF just after the outbreak of war, it was necessary to raise new units, and to maintain the local connection, the unit numbers were "fractionalised". The Hampshire Fortress Engineers in fact became 1/7th (Hampshire) Field Company, as part of 28th Division and joined the Divison in France in October 1915. In the same month, 28th Division moved to Egypt and in November 1915, embarked for Salonika. All this, along with the absence of a medal index card bearing his original number, appears to rule out service overseas.

Fortress Engineers were raised to provide support for the Royal Garrison Artillery at certain defended ports at home and abroad. Regular Army units principally took responsiblity for those ports abroad and Territorial units for those at home. Prior to the war, Hants Fortress Engineers HQ was at Hampshire Terrace, Portsmouth, with drill halls in Portsmouth and Gosport. They provided 3 Works Companies for maintenance of defences, and 4 Electric Light companies. Given his four figure number, it would appear likely that he was a wartime volunteer, joining in 1914/15 and fell victim to injury or illness whilst at home. Your best bet would be to see if his service record still exists at the National Archive at Kew.

Out of interest, the RE Museum at Chatham does not hold records for individual soldiers.

If I can help further , please let me know.

Terry Reeves

[sue norman]

Sorry to throw a spanner in the works, but Thomas P Norman cannot be your man. The second number, with the WR prefix, belonged to a man who served with an Inland Waterways, Docks or Railway Company, and in some instances to men serving with Quarrying and Road Companies. The WR prefix was not introduced until 1916-17. If he was entitled to campaign medals, any changes of number would have been noted on his medal index card, starting with his original number.

2/2nd Hampshire Fortress Company was a second line Territorial Force Unit. With the rapid expansion of the TF just after the outbreak of war, it was necessary to raise new units, and to maintain the local connection, the unit numbers were "fractionalised". The Hampshire Fortress Engineers in fact became 1/7th (Hampshire) Field Company, as part of 28th Division and joined the Divison in France in October 1915. In the same month, 28th Division moved to Egypt and in November 1915, embarked for Salonika. All this, along with the absence of a medal index card bearing his original number, appears to rule out service overseas.

Fortress Engineers were raised to provide support for the Royal Garrison Artillery at certain defended ports at home and abroad. Regular Army units principally took responsiblity for those ports abroad and Territorial units for those at home. Prior to the war, Hants Fortress Engineers HQ was at Hampshire Terrace, Portsmouth, with drill halls in Portsmouth and Gosport. They provided 3 Works Companies for maintenance of defences, and 4 Electric Light companies. Given his four figure number, it would appear likely that he was a wartime volunteer, joining in 1914/15 and fell victim to injury or illness whilst at home. Your best bet would be to see if his service record still exists at the National Archive at Kew.

Out of interest, the RE Museum at Chatham does not hold records for individual soldiers.

If I can help further , please let me know.

Terry Reeves
Thanks to Terry and all who have put my mind to rest about Thomas Norman.
Thanks Terry for letting me know about the 2nd/2nd Hampshire Fortress Company.
It seems he was supposed to go overseas like the others but became ill before he went
and died.At least he didn't have to witness the carnage.
When I get time I'll have to find out if his service record still exists at the National Archive Kew.
I'm not worried about the medals its just his story I'm after to help with our family history.
Thanks again
Sue Norman