France

[babs74]

Im looking for WILLIAM WIDDOWFIELD Married in stockton in 1840 .I dont know when he went to france but 3or4 of his children was born there .they was born in rouen .William was a smithy and he was also down as a manager .I think he went to France to work on the railways.the one from rouen to Paris was built abt the time they were there .Iv'e tried the french census but i relly dont know how to get it .any help please babs

[pottoka]

What exactly is it that you are looking for?

If you are hoping to find the birth entries for William's children, you need to be able to give the years of birth. In France, you have to go to the Town Hall where they were registered or write and hope that you get a Town Hall which will look them up for you - some will and some won't. I'd be quite happy to ring them up for you and find out.

The Paris-Rouen railway was inaugurated on 3rd May 1843

[birdlip]

Hi there,

one of his children is on IGI;

Elizabeth Widdowfield bap 28 Aug 1853 British Schoolroom Chapel, Sotteville-Les-Rouen, Seine Maritime, France.

Its an extracted entry. They may not all have been baptised here, I don't see any others. I'm assuming you only had the French birthplaces from census returns though...if so, then at least this is a start.

regards birdlip

[MartinM]

Hi,
The French census is not like England or the US. It is undertaken much more regularly, but only 'samples' a proportion of the population. It is therefore unlikely that even if you were to find the census, you would find your ancestors.

Your best starting point as already suggested, is the town hall, but for older records, the prefecture, who tend to keep archives over about 100yrs old.

I have to say I have always found both town halls and prefectures to be very helpful, and they usually do not even charge for copies of 'extracts de naissance', the French equivalent of a birth certificate. (if your ancestor subsequently married or died in France, the extract de naissance will usually have been updated with this information also)

If you need help or translations, please pm, I'll be happy to do so.

Regards
Martin

[pottoka]

I have found a John Widdowfield, born about 1847 in Rouen on the 1871 Census, and, in 1881, Elizabeth is living with a sister, Mary J. Widdowfield, born about 1845, in Darlington, as is John. In 1891, brother James (abt 1850) appears.

They obviously seem to have stayed in France for quite some time, some of them more than the others.

There is an FHS in the Seine-Maritime (the "département" where Rouen is: France is divided into départements like England is divided into counties) which I could contact for ideas about records which might show what William was up to, from the railway construction firm, for example.

[pottoka]

The French Census was taken country-wide every five years or so, except when the country was at war, until 1999 which was the last time the entire French population was counted. Since then, it is taken annually in "communes" (town-cum-parish) of over 10,000 inhabitants, eight per cent of which are counted, and every five years in smaller ones where everyone is counted.

The purpose of the Census in modern France is statistical, to measure demographic evolution and change, to find out what kind of conditions people live in, what education they have had, etc. It's carried out by the National Institute of Statistics and Economic Studies.

For the period that the Widdowsons seem to have been in France, there were Censuses in 1841, 1846, 1851, 1856, 1861, 1866, 1872, 1876, 1881. These give name, first name(s), profession, age (except 1841), address (except 1841 & 1846) and marital status. In 1851, 1872 and 1876, nationality was given. In 1851, religion and illness or infirmity was noted; in 1872 and 1876, the place of birth was given.

Unfortunately, they are not on-line but can be consulted at the "Archives départementales", the equivalent of County Record Offices. However more and more of the Archives départementales are working to scan documents in their possession to make them available on the Internet; some already have parts of their collections available, some have been scanned but are only consultable in their own reading rooms instead of using micro-fiches, a couple are paying sites and quite a few expect to be up and running next year. It's looking good!

[babs74]

hi everyone you are all so helpful i cant believe it .I will try to give you what i have .William was The father of Mary J widdowfield [b]1845 in France John [b]abt 1847/8 James 1850 and Elizabeth 1854 .They seem to be all teachers or accountants .Mary J visited her grandmother Hannah young in 1851 in stockton i have William's wedding cert He married Jane young in !840in Stockton Durham.He lived in warring ton at this time and was a smith i presume smithy.When John wed in 1869 William was a manager i have that cert as well.IM sure they went to France to work for the rail ?? i maybe wrong .If any expenses incur who and how do i pay .Thanks again ive been away and |jumphappywhat a nice welcome home to find people have tried to help bye babs

[Peter Goodey]

The Institution of Civil Engineers has documents relating to the construction of that line including some drawings

For example:

[Chemin de fer de Paris a Rouen.] Dessin pour les ponts a construire au piquet No 6181 dans la commune de St Etienne du Rouvray et au piquet No 6225 dans la commune de Sotteville les Rouen

[Chemin de fer de Paris a Rouen.]Cross sections of side cutting at Sotteville les Rouen

[Chemin de fer de Paris a Rouen]. 17. Pont pour le chemin du Buet commune de Sotteville-les-Rouen

[pottoka]

I'll contact the Town Hall in Rouen tomorrow (whoops, |blush| later today ... time I went and got some beauty sleep).
Usually "extraits de naissance" are free in France, so it shouldn't be more than a couple of stamps, and I think I can just about stretch to that |laugh1|

[babs74]

Sorry peter dont under stand french .I do think i could be on the right trackthough he worked with iron ?his fami;y where iron moulders .Ido thank you for your help its very kind of you .Pottoka thanks so much for your help and your time lokk forward to more news .I did try some french sites but to no avail plus not knowing what to do is a definite handicap .bye for now babs

[pottoka]

The Institution of Civil Engineers has documents relating to the construction of that line including some drawings

For example:

[Chemin de fer de Paris a Rouen.] Dessin pour les ponts a construire au piquet No 6181 dans la commune de St Etienne du Rouvray et au piquet No 6225 dans la commune de Sotteville les Rouen

[Chemin de fer de Paris a Rouen.]Cross sections of side cutting at Sotteville les Rouen

[Chemin de fer de Paris a Rouen]. 17. Pont pour le chemin du Buet commune de Sotteville-les-Rouen

Chemin de fer de Paris à Rouen means Railway from Paris to Rouen.
Dessin pour les ponts à construire au piquet N° 6181 dans la commune de St Etienne et au piquet N° 6225 dans la commune de Sotteville: Drawing for the bridges to be built at post N° 6181 in the parish of St Etienne and at post N° 6225 in the parish of Sotteville.

Pont pour le chemin du Buet commune de Sotteville: Bridge for the Buet path/road, parish of Sotteville

Commune is more than a parish, but it's a word which doesn't have an English equivalent. It's the smallest territorial division in France, others being départements (the equivalent of counties) and régions (Aquitaine [once English!!] is a region of South West France covering the departments of Gironde, Dordogne, Landes, Lot-et-Garonne and Pyrénées-Atlantiques)

Sorry if I sound |soapbox|

[pottoka]

Babs, are William and Jane on the 1841 Census or had they already left the country?

One bit of information already, unfortunately unhelpful, is that there are no Censuses available in Rouen for the time the family were there.

[babs74]

Hi i have had a good search with ancestry and find my past but the thousands ive scrolled [honest] cannot find either jane {his wife or him ]on the 1841 census .I know they also had a daughter Hannah born1842 in warrington she died in Darlington aged 34 yrs ,She also was a teacher .I presume she was the first born .I have her on on the 1851 census staying at her grandmothers in stockton .I know Williams father was James .Hey if its to much dont worry thanks any way for trying .I cannot afford 12 pounds an hour off Martin but that is his job thanks for every thing babs

[babs74]

hi pottoka No you dont sound at all soapy lol and dont worry im a little crazy anyway babs

[pottoka]

hi pottoka No you dont sound at all soapy lol and dont worry im a little crazy anyway babs

Aren't we all? I think we have to be, to spend our time poring over old documents, trying to read crabbed handwriting, sorting out families who had no imagination when it came to first names (although maybe some parents could take a leaf out of their book these days instead of the outlandish handles they saddle their kids with!)

I'm writing to Rouen and to Sotteville. The problem with going direct to the Town Hall is that they only hold the BMD records for the actual town, so if the birth was in a village five miles away, you miss out! Rouen has said to expect to wait three weeks.

I looked for William on the 1841 Census, too, and I quite believe you about scrolling through hundreds! I saw them :eek: I tried Wm quickly, but didn't get a result with that, either.

Have you got William and Jane's marriage certificate? Is Jane's maiden name Dinsdale? It could help to have it.

[babs74]

hi again got your private message but wasnt sure who ami kidding i replied but when it came to sending i made a hash of it .I dont think i typed in right place .thick arent i .
right in answer to Question 1 Yes i have the wedding cert for william and his wife was Jane Young born in Stockton they got married 3!st dec1840 [bet they had a good new year]He is down as living in warrington lancaster.He is classed as a smith .Their 1st daughter?the 1st i have is Hannah she was born in Warrington 1842 died Darlington [Widdowfields where almost all born in this area durham etc north east .]She was a teacher and the school inscribed on her grave a tribute of affection she was 34yrs old .
I have mary J and Hannah staying at their grandmothers in stocton 1851 census .Funny i had Jane dinsdale as his wife but unless he was married twice ?
Tonight have searched again even for his dad James we have a lot of james oh for a brooklyn it would make it easier .not a william in site .
The uni i went to was HUll it was a course for credits if i do 5 and pass i would get some sort of degree .ive got my 1st pass .our tutor as now left so i cannot get further .He did say if he came back to england he would get in touch .
If you are interested there is a good story on the widdowfield web site .Find Big nose george Parrot my cousin 5th got shot by him in wyoming robert was a sheriff there .He left durham and with a few of his family went over to usa .
ok i will stop talking i hope i have given you something to work with bye for now babs i have just realised i have repeated myself sorry babs

[pottoka]

Thanks for Jane's maiden name. I'll put it in the letters and send them off today and then http://bestsmileys.com/fingers/1.gif

I got Jane Dinsdale from the Stockton marriages for 1840, but wasn't sure as there were only three entries. She must have married the other chap, and Jane Young was missed off.

I'll look up your Widdowfield website - that story sounds so intriguing. I wish I could find something exotic in my lot, even if it was x times removed!

On second thoughts, after reading the story, I'll add that I wouldn't wish a death like that on anyone.

[pottoka]

In the post today was an envelope from the Town Hall of Sotteville-lès-Rouen enclosing the following:
- entry of birth for Jean (John) Widowfield on 30th October 1846 at 11 a.m.
- entry of birth for James Widowfield on 5th April 1849 at 6 p.m.
- entry of death for Jeanne Widowfield, aged one year and eight months on 11th March 1853 at 12.30 a.m. (born 25th June 1851)
- entry of birth for Elizabeth Widdowfield on 11th June 1853 at 1 a.m.

They've also sent a certificate which has nothing to do with the Widowfields, so they might have meant to put in the birth entry for Jeanne, as the death entry says she was born in Sotteville, and put the wrong paper in the envelope by mistake. I can't ring them to ask as they close at half past four on Fridays and it's twenty to five - curses, just missed them!

I'll transcribe the certificates and translate them over the weekend and then send them on to you.

[babs74]

Hi gosh hasnt this been quick i dont believe it .Its wonderful and i thank you very much .I couldnt have done it without your help .Ive looked for jane in the 1841 census nothing but i think they are a bit hit and miss .Where she was i dont know unless she went with him after all they were just married . She may had stayed at someones house See we didnt know of the child that died .
This week i may not be on as much .My husband is having a bypass on thurs .He has to go in on wed so it will be all go .If things go right he should be out in a week .I will probably be late [like now 2/20 in the morning time does fly .Right will go now again thanks havent they been quick my friend sent to york a month ago for a will and still hasnt got it .nite nite babs |jumphappy

[pottoka]

The certificate for the birth of Jeanne Widowfield has arrived. It gives her name as Jeanne in the margin but Jane in the text of the record.

Transcriptions and translations are ready to be e-mailed, and the certificates themselves will be in the post tomorrow.

[pottoka]

One of the volunteers at the Archives départementales for the Seine Maritime has found the record of the birth in Rouen of Mary (Marie) Widowfield !

For the time being, I've got a photograph of the document, which makes it a bit hard to make out the writing in places, but I did write to Rouen Town Hall, so keep your fingers crossed that they'll send me a copy. They did warn me that it would take at least three weeks before I got an answer.

Mary was born on 27th January 1845 at 9 a.m.