1891-1904 missing yrs ( help )

[Scouse]

Hi I'm a new member and posted the following on the Lancs site not realising
there was a Liverpool site as well.
I've been researching my family tree for a few months now.
But keep coming up against a brick wall linking my Grandad to a 1891 family.

Grandad James Harrison Smith.married Ellen Jane Hunt. in Liverpool 1904.
He was aged 20 yrs.address on cert given as (Skirving St.Everton.not on 1901 census). Fathers name Alfred Smith.
A friend recently located a Alfred age 35yrs & James.H.Smith.15 yrs. living at 4 Delta St Litherland Parish Ormskirk. (widower)? 1901.census

Are they the same family of Smith's living at Torr St.Everton.1891 census.
consists of Alfred Smith age 25 yrs.wife Alice. daughter Sarah age 7.son James.H.Smith.age 5 yrs.

I also have individual records for 1881 census for Alfred Smith Snr aged 61 yrs Alfred Smith Jnr aged 15 Yrs. living at 10 Hodder St. Everton.I have not got the 1881 census can anyone oblige.

I also have Alfred Smith Snr and family living at Devonshire place.3 Sefton Terrace.Everton.1871 census.

If i could fill in those missing years 1891-1904.the rest would fall into place. All the ages match up.

Hope someone can help be much appreciated.

Scouse.

[Geoffers]

Grandad James Harrison Smith.married Ellen Jane Hunt. in Liverpool 1904. He was aged 20 yrs. Fathers name Alfred Smith.
A friend recently located a Alfred age 35yrs & James.H.Smith.15 yrs. living at 4 Delta St Litherland Parish Ormskirk. (widower)? 1901.census.
Are they the same family of Smith's living at Torr St.Everton.1891 census.
consists of Alfred Smith age 25 yrs.wife Alice. daughter Sarah age 7.son James.H.Smith.age 5 yrs..Your best bet would be to try a couple of avenues.

1) View the 1901 census to see if birthplaces match up with earlier census returns. Granted the birthplace may just record Everton, or Liverpool or something equally unhelpful - but you may be lucky in it showing a district.

2) The age given at marriage isn't too far out from the age indicated for what may be your chap in the 1891 census. In any case it doesn't mean that you have too long a search to try and find his entry in the General Register Office (GRO) index of births. To counter the fact that you are looking for a Smith, you do at least have an unusual middle name. Try searching freebmd first http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl (not the complete index, but free) and if no luck with that either use a pay-per-view website, 1837 online or visit a Local Studies Library where they hold teh GRO index on fiches. Once you have a reference, you can apply for a copy of the birth certificate which will record both parents names and mother's maiden name. Keep your fingers crossed that the motehr is shown as Alice and the fathe as Arthur!

Geoffers
Charlbury, Oxfordshire

[Scouse]

Hi.
As a new member I was of the impression that the aims of this site was to
help people in there family history research,
Your reply to my thread only advises me to carry on doing my own research. I thought your fellow researchers, with there experience, could help fill
in the missing years.One of my other querys was a trace of the 1881 census.for the Smith family at 10 hodder St. Everton.
Maybe I've taken the aims of the society the wrong way

I do not mean to be dissrespectful or rude, I'm just confused that none of my questions have been answered.

Yours sincerely Scouse

[Geoffers]

As a new member I was of the impression that the aims of this site was to help people in there family history research,Help can be provided in different ways - For me the best help that can be given is to show someone how to help themself and where to look for that information. You indicated that you are fairly new to research which suggested to me that you may not be aware of some resources that are available.


Your reply to my thread only advises me to carry on doing my own research.Well, yes! With advice on how to go about that; I'm not about to order certificates for you. From your earlier message (which I may have misread) you don't appear to have carried out the basic step of obtaining the birth certificate for James Harrison SMITH to help in connecting him with the census returns to which you referred.

[I thought your fellow researchers, with there experience, could help fill in the missing years.One of my other querys was a trace of the 1881 census.for the Smith family at 10 hodder St. Everton.]

If others with the relevant information can help, I am sure that they will. But short of obtaining certificates (and possibly checking directories in case the family appear), I am not sure what you expect.

If you are happy that the family at 10, Hodder Street in 1881 is yours, then the transcript of the entry records:
RG11/3669 f21 p35
10 Hodder St, Everton, Lancashire, England
Alfred SMITH, hd, mar, 61, shipwright, bn Lpool
Elizabeth SMITH, wf, mar, 50, bn Lpool
Mary A. SMITH, son, unm, 33, laboruer, bn Lpool
Elizabeth SMITH, dau, unm, 17, Lpool
Alfred SMITH, son, unm, 15, Lpool
Joseph J. SMITH, son, unm, 12, Lpool

[Peter Goodey]

Well, I thought that was some good advice from Geoffers. I'm surprised it wasn't good enough.

The only point I might add if that you can confirm that your Alice Smith did indeed die between 1891 and 1901, this will add a bit more confidence that the 1891 and 1901 census entries do relate to the same family.

[Scouse]

Hi Peter.
Firstly let me apologise,It was not my intention to upset anyone.
If I did I am sorry.
Can I make a few points, then I'll keep quite.

You in one small paragraph, have given me a lead for the missing years
1891/1904.The possible death of Alice during those years, It was that kind of help I was after, can you point me in the right search direction.

Having the birth cert, for James Harrison Smith 1866.will give me the mother & fathers names. but it does not help me fill in the missing years. It is the link between 1891/1904 I'm after, Does that sound right to you, please correct me if I'm wrong.

I was quite upset that your associate, intimated that I was after freebie certs. If you check my threads you will find no mention of the kind.

Hope this somehow clears the air,

Yours sincerely Scouse

[Peter Goodey]

OK. To find a death you need to look in the GRO indexes. The easiest place to start is http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/ but it's not complete and the system is grossly overloaded at the moment. In fact it won't do anything for me today.

You can also look at the indexes at many main libraries. I'd be surprised if they are not available in Liverpool if that's where you are.

Online there is also 1837online this is a complete copy of the indexes - scanned images not a database - but is pay per view.

I warn you there may be a LOT of Alice Smiths who died in that period. Use the age of death to draw up a shortlist and the likely registration districts to refine it further. Everton is Liverpool North RD and Ormskirk is Ormskirk RD.

If you want the certificate and I recommend it - you can order it online at
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/

When you get the cert., with luck the informant will be shown as one of the family you're interested in.

You'll also know where they were when she died (and if she died in hospital, say, at least you'll have an idea of the area).

Hope that helps.

Geoffers and I aren't "associates" by the way. We just signed up the same as you did with the aim of picking other peoples brains about our problems and perhaps passing on some of what we know.

[Geoffers]

[Having the birth cert, for James Harrison Smith 1866.will give me the mother & fathers names. but it does not help me fill in the missing years. It is the link between 1891/1904 I'm after, Does that sound right to you, please correct me if I'm wrong.]

Having the birth certificate and the paretns' names will make it easier to trace their marriage certificate. The marriage certificate should provide you with ages (which will hopefully tie in with the 1891 census) and thus an estimated year of birth. Extrapolating this date when searching the GRO index of deaths should make it a little more certain that you've found the correct death certificate for Alice, bearing in mind the surname you may find several Alice Smiths having died in this period.

[I was quite upset that your associate, intimated that I was after freebie certs. If you check my threads you will find no mention of the kind.]

I would be honoured to be considered an associate of Peter's, who has provided a substantial amount of advice to others on these forums. Perhaps I misinterpreted the comments you earlier made, for which I apologise:

"As a new member I was of the impression that the aims of this site was to
help people in there family history research, Your reply to my thread only advises me to carry on doing my own research."
By the way, when you find a reference in the GRO index, you can apply for a copy of a certificate online via http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/

Good luck with your research
Geoffers

[Scouse]

Hi Geoffers.
I am glad we have cleared the air.
And am sorry for any missunderstandings.
I would be pleased of your help in the future,if thats OK with you.
Scouse

[Geoffers]

Hi Geoffers.
I am glad we have cleared the air.
And am sorry for any missunderstandings.
I would be pleased of your help in the future,if thats OK with you.
Scouse
If you get stuck - ask. Someone may know the answer or even be researching the same line. I would guess that somewhere in my library of 850+ books on subjects relating to history, there's an answer to most questions.

Best wishes
Geoffers

[Scouse]

Hi Geoffers.
Took up yours and Peters advice.
Ancestry Civil regs index.This is what I found.

Alice Smith
Death
Age 42
Qtr June.
Year 1900
Liverpool(1837/1924)
Lancashire.
Vol 8b
Page 97.
Looks promising for a match to 1891 census for, Alice Smith, aged 32 Yrs, (Torr St. Everton,). I'll wait though until I can locate James Harrison Smith.
I am having difficulty locating him around the yrs 1884-1886.
Also same thing with the marriage of Alfred Smith.
I'll keep looking though.

I am going to E Mail Liverpool Records Office. A nice young lady helped me once before locating my Grandads Marriage Cert. I don't know if my Grandad was registered or not at birth, but she will be only to willing to help me search for his birth cert.
I'll keep you informed of any developements.
Any suggestions welcome,(in the nicest possible way that is).

Yours Sincerely Scouse

[Clive Blackaby]

Hi.
As a new member I was of the impression that the aims of this site was to
help people in there family history research,
Your reply to my thread only advises me to carry on doing my own research. I thought your fellow researchers, with there experience, could help fill
in the missing years.One of my other querys was a trace of the 1881 census.for the Smith family at 10 hodder St. Everton.
Maybe I've taken the aims of the society the wrong way

I do not mean to be dissrespectful or rude, I'm just confused that none of my questions have been answered.

Yours sincerely Scouse
It's hardly surprising that you had that impression!
There are so many subscribers to this site who are only too willing to help out by doing look-ups especially on material that they have to hand, and which is not readily available to everyone. Virtually all of us are amateurs with full time jobs and our own researches to do. Many have built up varied and extensive libraries of books, and more recently CDs over the years - that's why we need the full time jobs:) .
Others may just happen to have borrowed the film with the info you need from their local LDS library, or have a few spare units on 1837 online that are about to run out so might as well put them to good use to help someone else out.
But yes, if you can do your own digging in the available materials it is the best way. It may be nice to have someone tell you who your great great grandfather was, but there's nothing that beats tracking him down for yourself, and your best friend on this site is the one who will tell you where best to look next!

Happy Hunting!

[Geoffers]

Ancestry Civil regs index.This is what I found.
Alice Smith, Death, Age 42, June.1900, Liverpool
Looks promising for a match to 1891 census for, Alice Smith, aged 32 Yrs, (Torr St. Everton,). I'll wait though until I can locate James Harrison Smith.This does indeed look hopeful - the problem is the surname. I haven't used the Ancestry index - if it is complete for this period and there are no other Alice Smith deaths of the right age it may be worth applying for the certificate (sometimes you do have to just apply for a certifiacte and keep your fingers crossed). The death certiifcate may provide a useful address, it may show a relative as an informant. There may be an 'interesting' cause of death.

Having said that, I think that you are wise to first hunt for the birth of James Harrison Smith. When searching for a birth, it is worth remembering that names recorded at birth may be different to names used later in life. For example, he may have been registered as Harrison James Smith, or possibly had another first name, in front of James, which he dropped - unfortunately this makes the search of the GRO index longer.

Geoffers

[Geoffers]

Second part of reply to avoid duplicated text......

[James Harrison Smith.married Ellen Jane Hunt. in Liverpool 1904. He was aged 20 yrs.address......A friend recently located a Alfred age 35yrs & James. H. Smith.15 yrs. living at 4 Delta St Litherland Parish Ormskirk. 1901.census]

On an earlier message you mentioned the above, you also wrote that you are having difficulty in locating a birth for James Harrison Smith 1884-1886.

One possibility to consider in hunting the GRO births index is that James' dad hadn't at that time married his mum. Another thread on one of the forums mentions finding a marriage for parents somewhere around 15 years after the couple had their first child!

For example - sarching the freebmd website
http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl
for marriages of Alfred Smith 1884-1888 brings up several possible entries. By clicking on the page number you will display other entries which also appear on the same page - N.B not all entries on a page may be transcribed and you cannot say for sure from the marriage index which man married which woman.

With that warning, there is an interesting hit for Sep 1888:

BULFIELD Edith Liverpool 8b 59
Norman Alice Liverpool 8b 59
Smith Alfred Liverpool 8b 59
WHITFIELD Joseph Liverpool 8b 59

Though I should add that earlier, in Jun 1883 there is:

BLUNDELL Esther Ann Liverpool 8b 126e
By clicking on the page number you will display other entries which also appear on the same page - N.B not all entries on a page may be transcribed and you cannot say for sure from the marriage index which man married which woman.

Another possibility to search for is that Alfred Smith married Alice Harrison and that this marriage is not yet shown on freebmd. If this is the case and their son James was born prior to marriage, then his birth may be recorded as Harrison. Not knowing teh area where your family lived, I don't know how many parishes this covers - it may be worth your while searching the the parish registers for baptism and marriage if you feel that the GRO index hits are too uncertain.

Geoffers

[Scouse]

Hi Geoffers
You were right about Alfred Smith, Alice Taylor.1883.
I have actually got the marriage cert for them .
13th May 1883, Alfreds age 21. Alices 21. I sent for that one because of the
proximity of James.H. aprox D.O.B
Does not match up with the ages of the Smith family 1881 or 1891.
Torr st & Hodder St.
Which means hopefully that your 1888 could be a serious contender.

I am now moving ahead slowly, with some very welcome help.

Yours sincerely Scouse.