How to use Death Duty Register Index

[KateM]

Hi,

I found the following entries in the Indexes to Death Duty Registers for my gt gt grandparents.
Does this mean that they would have left a will? How can I use this information to get a copy if they did?
I’m a novice in this area so don’t know what I need to do now.

Name of Deceased - NEWMAN Robert William
Residence - Croydon
Date of Death - 24 Nov 1892
Executor - PS Newman
Registry - PR
No of Affidavit - 3681.93
Will or Admon - W
Folio - (blank)


Name of Deceased - NEWMAN Paulina Sophia
Residence - Croydon
Date of Death - 17 Aug 1902
Executor - RA Newman
Registry - PR
No of Affidavit - 4680
Will or Admon - W
Folio - 2698

Thanks in advance,
Kate

[Peter Goodey]

Does this mean that they would have left a will?

Yes, as shown in the line "Will or Admon - W"

Wills for this period are obtained from the Probate Service. See

http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/cms/1226.htm

If you live in Middlesex, you'll probably find it most convenient to visit First Avenue House in person. There's a one hour service so you can take the wills home with you. Otherwise you have to write to York; their service is not usually speedy.

[KateM]

Thanks Peter,

I assumed they would have left a will as Robert was a barrister and Paulina was living on her own means in 1901.

I've just read throught info on your link. I assume I will have to search through the calendars to find out when the grant was obtained before I can request a copy of the will.

Now to find time to visit First Avenue House!
Kate

[caliope]

Hi Kate,

Being far from an expert in these matters, I have written to York for a couple of ancestors' wills. I didn't need anything more than the name of the deceased, date of death and their residential address. Waiting , as Peter mentioned, for a reply from York IS tedious. Going on 5 weeks now for my latest request.

[Jan1954]

I have visited First Avenue House on more than one occasion.

The process is simple. All the ledgers are in alphabetical order within date. Find the volume in which your entry is recorded, complete the form and take both the ledger and the form to the counter.

Hand over £5, go to one of the many and varied coffee bars in the vicinity. Come back an hour later and a copy of the will is waiting for you.

I love going there. :D

[arthurk]

It's often worth looking at the Death Duty register as well as getting a copy of the will, as it may give useful extra information. For example, if the testator wrote "my children", then unless the legacies were very small, the DDR will probably name them, including daughters' married names; it will also indicate if any of the legatees have died, and should give the addresses of the executors and possibly other beneficiaries too. If a surviving spouse had a lifetime interest in something, after which it was to pass to someone else, there is usually a note added later saying when the spouse died.

Earlier registers are on film, and copies can be obtained very cheaply from TNA. For the dates you mention, I don't think they have been filmed, so copies work out quite expensive. Alternatively, you can view the originals at TNA.

Arthur

[KateM]

Hi,

Thank you all for your helpful replies.

It looks like a vist to First Avenue House is definately on the cards as I'm too impatient to wait 5 weeks!
I might also pop along to check the registers at the TNA, as it's not too far from me.

Kate :)

[fpegrum]

As the title of the original post applies to my question, I thought I would add my query - I hope that nobody minds!

I have a copy of a will for Elizabeth KENNARD who died in 1816 at Covent Garden, Westminster. I have just figured out that the Index to Death Duty Registers on a subscription website is not the same as a will list (failure to pay any attention to the wording).

I have found an entry for Elizabeth but can't read the details clearly. It is under PCC and County Courts 1816 and says:

Kennard Eliz (testator) Ann White, Kensington Gore, Mddx (executor) ? County (court) 2 (register) 3700 (folio)

Could somebody have a look please and see if they can read the court name and explain where I would find the entry?

I have a copy but it is too large to post on here.

Thank you.

Fiona

[fpegrum]

http://i473.photobucket.com/albums/rr99/floxxie/ElizKennard.jpg

Thanks Bo Peep.
Entry is 15 up from the bottom
Fiona

[v.wells]

Sorry I'm no help as need a magnifier.:o

I am deviating from the original post and asking "Where do you find the Death Duty Registers"? Do I google or do I have to go thru TNA? Sorry if question has been asked before but am having a very grey moment here!|bowdown|

[Mary Anne]

Fiona

I think you've got Ann White as the executor in Middlesex all right.

And the rest looks to me like Canterbury Court, and the numbers are 2 and 3700 (I think).

TNA, Vanessa - here http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/death-duty.asp



Mary Anne

[arthurk]

I'd say the reference is P Cant'y (Prerogative Court of Canterbury, or PCC); Register 2, Folio 378. Now for the fun bit - ordering a copy.

On the main TNA Search page, they ask for 3 bits of information. For the word or phrase enter * (wildcard); dates - 1816 to 1816; Series Code - IR26. This brings up a list of all the Death Duty Registers for 1816, ordered by initial letter of surname. You'll need to click on the ones for K until you find one which includes the correct court where the will was proved (PCC), and, a few lines down, includes in its range of folios the number you found in the index (378). Then you can click the link to Request This, but make sure you specify whose entry you want, with the Folio number, and say something like "full entry" or "all relevant pages" - once or twice they've sent me incomplete entries and I've had to chase them up. In a few days you'll get a quotation for the copy, and if it's acceptable you can then order it.

NB - Not all IR26 entries give a court; if they don't, I think you're pretty safe to go for it according to the folio number, but the main thing is not to order one which is clearly wrong. In any case you don't pay for the quotation, and if they can't find the right entry they'll let you know so you can try again if appropriate.

Finally, I haven't given you the IR26 reference that I came up with, so that you'll have to try this for yourself. If you'd like to post what you think it is, I'll check it against what I found.

Arthur

[fpegrum]

Thank you to you all for your input.

v.wells - I tried the magnifying glass but the writing is so feint that it didn't help!

Mary Anne - thank you - I also thought it was 3700 until Arthur suggested 378 and when you look it appears that the 8 has almost been written sideways but looks remarkably similar to the 378 in the entry above.

Arthur - thank you very much for the detailed explanation. I hope that I have 'got it'. I came up with the reference IR26/681 - please tell me I got the same as you as I couldn't see anything else it could be.

Is it cheaper/quicker/better to get it sent through DocumentsOnline or by post or by some other method?? Can you collect a copy from the TNA if you ordered it in advance?

Sorry so many questions but I think I shall go searching for more of these - maybe my brick walls will come down once I have received them - well I can live in hope!

Fiona

[v.wells]

Thanks Fiona for your pm. I should have guessed findmypast and I have credits too:D

[v.wells]

Thanks Mary Anne for the TNA ref. May we all have higher brains such as yours. Mine has gone defunct today - I have spent the past 3 days clearing my office floor of piles and I can also see my desk for the first time in a long while:D

Just checked it and it only goes to 1811. I was hoping for 1891 to 1910ish. Always |banghead| in my way!

[Mary Anne]

Pooh! Sorry, Vanessa! Me too! |nopity|

don't even go there with the good days and the bad days...this happened to be a good one for me.

I too have been cleaning office - well, setting it up after reno-ing. And now, at last, I can get back to the mass of genelogicla papers I need to sort out and enter into my program so I can figure out where all those folks went off to! Sounds like |banghead| territory to me!

[v.wells]

I do NOT like places like that! I've had enough brickwalls to last me into another lifetime and build me some castles|laugh1|

[arthurk]

Sorry not to get back to you sooner on this.

1. In some handwriting, the figure 8 often does appear to us to be on its side, but as it's generally done with a single stroke of the pen with a crossing in the middle, there's not much else it could be.

2. I got IR26/861 as well.

3. I may be confused here myself, but I don't think it will be available via Documents Online - if it was, it would show up in a name search there alongside the will. In general, I think the DDRs that are available are some of the ones where wills aren't. The cheapest option will almost certainly be paper copies, and the whole process may take about 3-4 weeks, if my memory is correct. I believe you can order a digital copy (on CD??), or an express copy (via email??), but I haven't tried these, and I think they'll be expensive. I also haven't tried ordering a copy to pick up at TNA, but if you're able to visit, you should be able to view the DDR on film there for free.

Arthur

[Marie C..]

Can't you just download them from TNA, £3.50 each and then print them out. I did. Can't decipher all the words though and magnified too much distorts. M

[arthurk]

Yes, you can download them if they're there, but this explains what the TNA has available (quoted from their site):

The Death Duty Registers on DocumentsOnline cover the 'country court' death duty registers (in other words, from Courts other than the Prerogative Court of Canterbury or PCC) for the period 1796 to 1811.
In this case the enquiry was about someone who died in 1816, so Documents Online won't help.

Arthur

[Geoffers]

3. I may be confused here myself, but I don't think it will be available via Documents Online

It won't be, the enruirer would need to sue the catalogue to identify the document (as per your instructions) and then request it.


The cheapest option will almost certainly be paper copies, and the whole process may take about 3-4 weeks, if my memory is correct. I believe you can order a digital copy (on CD??), or an express copy (via email??), but I haven't tried these, and I think they'll be expensive. I also haven't tried ordering a copy to pick up at TNA, but if you're able to visit, you should be able to view the DDR on film there for free

Ordering from TNA using Digital Express (https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/digitalexpress/)seems quite reasonable and quick.
You can pay £8.50 for 10 images and they are delivered in 24 hours, or £17 for 10 images delivered in 4 hours (last order time 1pm)

This TNA guide deals with Death Duty Registers (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/rdleaflet.asp?sLeafletID=245)

[fpegrum]

Thank you to everybody who has helped. I have now found several more entires that I would like to order so the suggestion of ordering the 10 via the Digital Express route will prove a bargain.

I've certainly learnt a low of new things!

Fiona

[Kerrywood]

I have now found several more entires that I would like to order so the suggestion of ordering the 10 via the Digital Express route will prove a bargain

Sorry, but there is a separate minimum charge of £8.50 per piece-number (item). As I understand it, you can't fill up the 10-page limit with different pieces.

Just a word of warning. For some of the DDRs (not sure which) the page-size is far too large for TNA to supply copies by Digital Express, on paper or by any other means, and they simply decline to do it. In those cases you do get your money back. It's worth a try, anyway.

Kerrywood

[MythicalMarian]

Help! I always seem to run into problems when I use that search catalogue, but having followed Arthur's instructions on here I have hit a big snag with my request from TNA on death duties. Despite coming up with the piece No. as Arthur has told us, specifying the name of the person and the folio number (as learned from FMP) I got an e-mail today saying that it would take them longer than the twenty minute search time to identify the document!

Is this right, folks? How have others got on with ordering through Arthur's instructions? I'm sure I've done something wrong - as per....

My request was for the DDR entry for my John Pigot, whose PCC will I already have, but I wanted to see if his bequests got to the people he stipulated. The FMP ref for the year 1833 was a PCC will, Register 3; Folio 447. I did as Arthur suggested on the TNA site and got the piece No: IR26/1333 and quite clearly stated the Folio number in my request details - and the name of the testator.

Does the TNA's answer mean that this reference no longer exists? I throw myself on your mercy....|banghead| All suggestions - in idiot-proof language welcome.

[Peter Goodey]

Things have changed.

Presumably this item (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/news/stories/260.htm) is relevant.

[MythicalMarian]

Thanks for that link, Peter - and I think I see where I may have gone wrong here. I wonder if Melsibob did the same - instead of putting the folio number in the details, I should probably have put it in the item box. I suppose the staff seeing just IR26/1333 didn't read beyond that!

I'll try again and see what happens. Thanks for your help - as always. Another of the Forum's gents. :)

PS: Believe it or not - I have managed to order quite a few obscure things before (largely by trial and error, I may add), so I'll keep on trying....