george garrod of winfarthing norfolk

[tony bennett]

good morning everone i joined today and this is my first thread so i do not know what is expected of me really. i am stuck with an ancestor of my wife george garrod of winfarthing norfolk found him on 1901 census but cannot find him anywhere else help and advice please.

[Procat]

Hi Tony,

Can you post more information please. For example, when and where born, parents, wife, kids etc.

Often a person cannot be picked up in census but they can be found by for example, searching for the parent, or the spouse etc. or even a year and place of birth.

[janbooth]

Hi Tony,

We really need a few more details. If you have found him in the 1901, you should have an approximate date & place of birth. Is he the one born c1859 in Winfarthing and married to an Alice? If so, you may need to find his marriage certificate and obtain details of his father's name & profession as there seem to be at least a couple of George GARROD/GARRARD/GAROOD, etc in Winfarthing born around the same time.

Janet

[tony bennett]

yes he is the one that you mentioned but i have searched in vain on the ancestry site for his marriage cert to alive and it isn't there. i suppose now the only way is to visit winfarthing and have a look at the parish register.. thanks for your help and avice

[Procat]

Have you got birth details for any of the kids?

If you get the certificate it will give you the surname of Alice which may find the marriage.

[Geoffers]

So everyone is aware, the 1901 entry would seem to be:
RG13/1865 f69 p2
Winfarthing
George GARROD, hd, mar, 42, ag.lab, bn Winfarthing
Alice, wf, mar, 25, bn Diss
Beatrice Alice, dau, 3, bn Winfarthing
Albert George, son, 1, bn Winfarthing

Your first step is to get a birth certificate of one of the children of George and Alice - do you have this?

A birth certificate will give you the mother's maiden name, which will then help you to try and locate a marriage to George.

[Procat]

By the way,

Have you seen this from Free BMD:

Marriages Dec 1897
Cattermole Alice Depwade 4b 663
Garroad George Depwade 4b 663

Depwade includes Winfarthing.

[Geoffers]

PS - do remember to look for variant spellings of surnames, for example in 1891, you chap may possibly appear as follows

RG12/1547 f119 p12
Short Green, Winfarthing
Mathew GARRARD, hd, mar, 73, farm labourer, bn Winfarthing
Orpha GARRARD, wf, mar, 72, bn Winfarthing
George GARRARD, son, mar, 34, farm labourer, bn Winfarthing

From feebmd, could your chap then have married in Dec qtr 1893
George Allen GARRARD, Forehoe District, vol 4b page 467
a corresponding entry exists for
Alice Bertha ANSCOMBE, Forehoe District, vol 4b, page 467

But then there is also a Dec 1897 entry for George GARROAD and Alice ANSCOMBE. Do also remember to try other variants, GARRETT is common in Norfolk as is GARROD

But without the birth certificate for a child, you cannot be sure that either is the correct marriage. If you are not sure how to apply for certificates, please ask.

[Procat]

1891 census has at RG12; Piece: 1544; Folio 71; Page 18

Alice Cattermole, 14, Born Diss, Norfolk.

Might be the one in the FreeBMD entry.

But as Geoffers states you really need a birth certificate of one of the kids.

[tony bennett]

thanks yes that is the george garrod my wife is descended from the son albert george garrod who was born in 1900. the son married lucy mullinger nee self on 19th oct 1921and their marriage certificate is all i have managed to get so far. it is no help as the witnesses were two members of the self family and A.taylor. i have traced and proved the Self family back to the 1770's which is why i am finding the garrods frustrating to say the least. thanks for all your efforts regards tony

[Geoffers]

thanks yes that is the george garrod my wife is descended from the son albert george garrod who was born in 1900. the son married lucy mullinger nee self on 19th oct 1921and their marriage certificate is all i have managed to get so far. it is no help as the witnesses were two members of the self family and A.taylor. i have traced and proved the Self family back to the 1770's which is why i am finding the garrods frustrating to say the least.

As has been mentioned, Albert's birth certificate would give you the opportunity to take this line back further.

GRO index - Mar 1900
Albert George GARROAD, Guiltcross, Vol 4b, Page 255

[tony bennett]

thanks geoffers i will send off for this birth certificate and see what i get back bye tony

[Nicolina]

according to the 1861 Census:
Short Green, Winfarthing, Norfolk
Matthew Garrod abt 1818 Winfarthing, Norfolk, Head occ: Ag Lab
Orpah (?) Garrod abt 1820 Winfarthing, Norfolk, Wife
Elisha Garrod abt 1845 Winfarthing, Norfolk, Son
Selina Garrod abt 1847 Winfarthing, Norfolk, Daughter
Jemima Garrod abt 1851 Winfarthing, Norfolk, Daughter
George Garrod abt 1857 Winfarthing, Norfolk, Son

there is another Garrod family in Winfarthing that is possibly related:

George Garrod abt 1816 Winfarthing, Norfolk, Head
Lois Garrod abt 1819 Winfarthing, Norfolk, Wife
Robert Garrod abt 1840 Winfarthing, Norfolk, Son
John Garrod abt 1841 Winfarthing, Norfolk, Son
Walker Garrod abt 1846 Winfarthing, Norfolk, Son
Eliza Garrod abt 1856 Winfarthing, Norfolk, Daughter

and on the same page as them there is also a Mullenger? family.

taking it back to 1841 they are all listed as GARRARD
George is married to Louisa with a one year old, but Matthew abt. 1819 is living with:
Jonathan Garrard abt 1779 Norfolk
Susan Garrard abt 1778 Norfolk
Elizabeth Garrard abt 1812 Norfolk
Mary Garrard abt 1823 Norfolk
Susan Ann Garrard abt 1840 Norfolk

Jonathon GARRARD married Susanna BAKER in Winfarthing 6th March 1798, by Banns, both signed. Witnesses: John SALTER & Charles BALLS

looks as though they didn't move far.
Elaine

[janbooth]

Tony,

When you get further back and if your GARROD family still originate from Winfarthing, FreeREG have transcribed the Archdeacons Transcripts of Winfarthing from 1725-1812 which may prove helpful to you.

Janet

[tony bennett]

Elaine,

Thanks for all the efforts that you have put in i have some more Certs since i posted this thread but they don't really prove anything because of all the different spellings i will list them for you as i would welcome your opinion.

Birth cert 30th Jan 1900 winfarthing Albert George Garroad father George Garroad mother Alice garroad formerley Cattermole.

wedding cert. 24 Oct 1897 Diss chapel. George Garroad aged 35 Alice Cattermole aged 23. Georges father Matthew Garroad no name for Alice's father. My Mum in law said that george married an alice and that she had met her and that she came from diss.

Birth cert. 14 april 1876 diss. Alice Cattermole mother Hannah no father on cert.

i would welcome your advice on where to go from here i wrote to Thetford Registery office and they searched the 3 local districts for George Garrod born 1900 and they couldn't find him bye tony

[tony bennett]

Thanks Janet if i ever get back that far your inforation will come in useful i am sure. best wishes tony

[Nicolina]

Cattermoles were in Diss for years. My own 3xGreat Grandmother was Housekeeper to Jonathon Cattermole in 1851. The big problem here is that the relevant Diss Parish records haven't been deposited.
I wonder if the birth was registered at Diss Chapel, seeing as George & Alice got married there. I shouldn't speak ill of the dead but they made a mess of my G-G-Grandfather's marriage record. They had his father's name as William Watling and it was William Colls, his step father was Matthew Watling. Took me years to work that one out.

Have you seen the 1881 Census for Alice? Her mother is listed as a Widow with 5 older kids, so looking on earlier Censuses should give her husbands name. Also living with them as a "Lodger" is John Cattermole aged 50, born Diss. Interesting.
The 1871 Census has:
RG10 piece 1834 folio 35 page 24
Fair Green, Diss
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation Where Born
CATTERNOLE, William Head M 39 1832 Diss, Norfolk occ: Stonemason's Lab
CATTERNOLE, Hannah Wife F 33 1838 Hopton, Suffolk
CATTERNOLE, William Son M 12 1859 Hopton, Suffolk occ: Lab
CATTERNOLE, James Son M 9 1862 Diss, Norfolk
CATTERNOLE, James Son M 9 1862 Diss, Norfolk
CATTERNOLE, Alfred Son M 8 1863 Diss, Norfolk
CATTERNOLE, David Son M 6 1865 Diss, Norfolk
CATTERNOLE, Jane Daughter F 3 1868 Diss, Norfolk
CATTERNOLE, Sarah Ann Daughter F 1 1870 Diss, Norfolk

there is also another William Cattermole, same age and with a son called Alfred born about 1862 living in Shelfanger Road, Diss.
Yours were neighbours of my family. How's that for co-incidence? Also 4 doors away from my family is a Benjamin GARRARD (Bricklayer aged 50, born Diss) and family.
I think I need a clearer head before I go "digging up more dead people" as my husband calls it. All these different spellings are confusing.
will be in touch,
Elaine

[Geoffers]

Thanks for all the efforts that you have put in i have some more Certs since i posted this thread but they don't really prove anything because of all the different spellings

Variant spellings of names occur frequently, especially when taking into account the Norfolk accent.

If you have the marriage certificate of Albert George which connects him to the 1901 census return:
RG13/1865 f69 p2
Winfarthing
George GARROD, hd, mar, 42, ag.lab, bn Winfarthing
Alice, wf, mar, 25, bn Diss
Beatrice Alice, dau, 3, bn Winfarthing
Albert George, son, 1, bn Winfarthing

Then the birth certificate you mention:


Birth cert 30th Jan 1900 winfarthing Albert George Garroad father George Garroad mother Alice garroad formerley Cattermole.

would seem to be a match - were there any other Alberts or Georges born in Winfarthing about 1899/1900 with a surname or variant of GARRARD/GARROD/GARROAD, etc?

Then this would seem a match for the marriage of Albert George's parents.


wedding cert. 24 Oct 1897 Diss chapel. George Garroad aged 35 Alice Cattermole aged 23. Georges father Matthew Garroad no name for Alice's father. My Mum in law said that george married an alice and that she had met her and that she came from diss.

So, you have a marriage certificate showing George was born about 1862. Can you locate him in the 1871 census? Can you find a matching birth for him in the GRO index? Try searching the parish registers as well.

Then.........


Birth cert. 14 april 1876 diss. Alice Cattermole mother Hannah no father on cert.

Tracing the father of an illegitimate child is more problematic. There may possibly be a court case; he migth possibly be mentioned in a baptism in the parish register. Did Hannah ever marry? Can you lcoate her in census returns? Does she appear to be living with someone as a hosuekeeper? Is she shown as married in 1881?

[ChristineR]

Thanks for all the efforts that you have put in i have some more Certs since i posted this thread but they don't really prove anything because of all the different spellings i will list them for you as i would welcome your opinion.

Birth cert 30th Jan 1900 winfarthing Albert George Garroad father George Garroad mother Alice garroad formerley Cattermole.

I just want to back up Geoffers comment about surnames.


Variant spellings of names occur frequently, especially when taking into account the Norfolk accent.

I have had name changes in many of my lines - in one case, about the late 1890s an extra letter was placed in the surname because that was how it sounded to the person writing it down on the birth registrations. And then the children followed the new spelling. Another family line has two different spellings to the present day, even though they descended from the same family, one surname ending with 'ery', the other 'rey'. Naturally they still argue about the correct spelling :)

As long as all other factors match, then I wouldn't let the spelling worry you. Especially as it ties in family knowledge that Alice was from Diss.

And just to illustrate this point


RG13/1865 f69 p2
Winfarthing
George GARROD, hd, mar, 42, ag.lab, bn Winfarthing
Alice, wf, mar, 25, bn Diss
Beatrice Alice, dau, 3, bn Winfarthing
Albert George, son, 1, bn Winfarthing

On looking at the 1901 census image, the surname is clearly written GARRARD !!! but we know that both children's births were registered as GARROAD.

:)

[michaelpipe]

Birth cert. 14 april 1876 diss. Alice Cattermole mother Hannah no father on cert.


1871 Census RG10; Piece: 1834; Folio: 35; Page: 24

Fair Green, Diss Nfk

William Cattermole, head, mar, age 39, Stone Mason’s Labourer, b Diss, Nfk
Hannah, wife, age 33, b Hopton, Sfk
William, son age 12, Labourer, b Hopton, Sfk
James, son, age 9, Scholar, b Diss, Nfk
Alfred, son, age 8, Scholar, b Diss, Nfk
David, son, age 6, Scholar, b Diss, Nfk
Jane, daur, age 3, Scholar, b Diss, Nfk
Sarah Ann, daur, age 1, b Diss, Sfk


In the next census Hannah is a widow, with some of the original kids, plus a few later ones including Alice. John Cattermole (lodger) could be brother in law, perhaps?

1881 Census RG11; Piece: 1966; Folio: 85; Page: 25

Church Street, Diss, Nfk

Hannah Cattermole, Head, Widow, age 39, b Hopton, Suffolk
Alfred, son, age 20, age 20, b Hopton, Suffolk
Jane, daur, age 13, b Diss, Nfk
Sarah Ann, daur, age 10, b Diss, Nfk
Charles, son, age 8, b Diss, Nfk
Caroline, daur, age 7, b Diss, Nfk
Alice, daur, age 4, b Diss, Nfk
John Cattermole, Lodger, age 50, b Diss, Nfk

There is a death for a William Cattermole in Depwade Reg Dist in 1874, and the age is 39. This could possibly be him, as the ages in these census extracts are rather erratic. Then Caroline would have been his last child – possibly Alice belongs to John Cattermole (hence no father named on the cert) – worth following up. Of course these are only possibilities/theories, and need documentation as evidence.


And just for added interest:

1891 census RG12; Piece: 1544; Folio 72; Page 19

Prime’s Square, Diss, Nfk

Hannah Cattermole, Head, widow, age (supposed to be 49, looks like 39 – she is not consistent with her age) b Hopton, Sfk
Alice Cattermole, daur, age 14, b Diss, Nfk
Harry Cattermole, grandson, age 4, b Diss, Nfk – where did he come from??
Charles Cattermole, son, age 19, Butcher, b Diss, Nfk
Alfred Cattermole, brother (don’t know how that works – perhaps bro in law), age 30 (?), single, Bricklayer, b Diss, Nfk


Michael

[tony bennett]

thanks to all of you for your help i am really pleased about all the information that you have given me i am about to order the death certificate for William Cattermole. i will post the details of this when i receive it

best wishes to you all Tony Bennett

[tony bennett]

hi there as promised the details from the certs that i sent off for.

sept 23 1866 marriage of William Cattermole aged 34 widower father James cattermole to Hannah List aged 28 spinster father Robert List.

21 April 1874 death of William Cattermole aged 39 cod diabetes and exhaustion informant Matilda Thurtle or Turtle.

20 April 1838 birth of Hannah List father Robert List mother Elizabeth List formerly Banks.

i have sent of for Robert List d.c but am not sure if it will be the right one when it arrives as i haven't got a true date of birth for him as the census returns show him as being born in either 1798 1807 1811. bye for now tony