SADLER William b.1801 - Newark....

[SearchingSadler]

Hi,

I'm hoping someone can help me. With my dads help (ok, he's done most of the trawling round churches and cemetaries, pre-internet days), we have traced our ancestors on my dads side back to possibly 1680 (although quite sketchy).

They are all Sadler males. Originally from North Wingfield, Derbyshire, by the time of the William I've lost, we had made it to Newark.

My William Sadler in question was baptised in 1801 at All Hallows, Ordsall, (father Thomas Sadler b1776, mother Ann Outram b1781), William (1801) had 3 children all baptised at St. Mary Magdalen, Newark.
Elizabeth b.31.1.1822
Thomas b. May 1824
Ann b. 23.9.1825.

Now this is where we are lost. Williams wife was Mary, thats ALL we know, no surname, where she came from, dob, dod, nothing.

In 1825 William and his family completely vanish! He is named on his sons marriage certificate in Northampton in 1850 as a 'gentleman' but we've no idea if he popped along for the wedding, was living in Northampton, or where he'd been for 25 years.

Williams occupations were 1822 Grocer, 1824 Gentleman, 1825 Pawnbroker, 1850 Chandler and Gentleman.

William was left £500 in his grandfather will in 1810 and another £500 at the age of 21. I've worked this out roughly to be £54,000 in todays money. Could he have gone off somewhere and made a new grander life? I've no idea when/where William died, but would love to have a copy of his will. We just need to know what happened to William. It's been driving my poor dad nuts for years, it sends me dizzy when I start trawling the net, and I too am desperate to know his story.

The grandfather that left the money, left quite a few thousand to his other children, but william was the only grandchild he left money too. I'd like to know what happened to the family farm of his grandads at Park House, Clay Lane, with farms at Clarborough, Welham and Bolham but think that will have to be another question.

[SearchingSadler]

just spoke to my dad, he's remember in a piggots guide there was a Mary Sadler (wife?), Hat Manufacturer, Stodman Street, Newark, but she is no longer there in 1832. Not sure if thats our Mary, wife of William

[michaelpipe]

Hi,

My William Sadler in question was baptised in 1801 at All Hallows, Ordsall, (father Thomas Sadler b1776, mother Ann Outram b1781), William (1801) had 3 children all baptised at St. Mary Magdalen, Newark.
Elizabeth b.31.1.1822
Thomas b. May 1824
Ann b. 23.9.1825.

Now this is where we are lost. Williams wife was Mary, thats ALL we know, no surname, where she came from, dob, dod, nothing.

In 1825 William and his family completely vanish! He is named on his sons marriage certificate in Northampton in 1850 as a 'gentleman' but we've no idea if he popped along for the wedding, was living in Northampton, or where he'd been for 25 years.

Williams occupations were 1822 Grocer, 1824 Gentleman, 1825 Pawnbroker, 1850 Chandler and Gentleman.

Was Williams name on the son's marriage cert in 1850 a signature as a witness, or only named as his father? If the latter he could have died some time earlier.

I found this one in Nottingham - don't know if it is of any significance.

This family is in Brewet’s Place, Nottingham St Mary in 1841

HO107; Piece 870; Folio: 5; Page: 3

Mary Saddler, age 37, born Nottinghamshire – can’t read Mary’s ‘occupation’
Thomas Saddler, age 15, J (Job?) Painter, born Nottinghamshire
Anne Saddler, age 15, Shop Girl, born Nottinghamshire

Michael

[SearchingSadler]

ooh thanks for that Michael. The names and ages fit on those.

My brother has a big book with the marriage certs in, so I will check later whether he was named or signed the cert.

With regard to those you have found, Mary (mother), Thomas and Ann. Elizabeth isn't mentioned but she would be 19 then, could've got married.

I do know a bit more about the kids, where they ended up and how we came to Nottingham:

Ann, came to Nottingham and married Edward Cooper at Snenton Church 9/9/1850. Edward Cooper of Snenton Road, was a lacemaker, son of Thomas Cooper, a cordwainer). They lived on Newcastle Street, and Thomas her brother, lodged with them when he initially came to Nottingham.

mmmm. curiouser and curiouser, "when he came to nottingham if that is ours you've found, he would have been living here, with his mum in Nottingham already

Do people actually lose hair over this family history lark ;)

My dads coming round today, he will be tied to a chair and interrogated lol

[michaelpipe]

Couldn't definitely identify Elizabeth. There was a marriage in 1843, but it was an Elizabeth from a different family at Mansfield. There is an Elizabeth working as a servant at Oxton Hall (not far away) in 1841, but age says 25. So nothing conclusive.

Michael

[SearchingSadler]

aah, apparently my dad once traced a William Sadler, farmer b. same year in Mansfield, but he didn't think he was our family.

So.........I managed to get this massive long bound book my dad has with all the family history he has found. AND! his notes ;)

The marriage cert for Thomas's marriage in 1850, is a modern day copy. It names William as the far, but he isn't one of the witnesses. Therefore, no way of knowing if he was actually at the wedding, although my dad seems convinced if he was dead, it would've said deceased at the side of his name.

Back to headbanging against a brick wall again I think

[michaelpipe]

The marriage cert for Thomas's marriage in 1850, is a modern day copy. It names William as the far, but he isn't one of the witnesses. Therefore, no way of knowing if he was actually at the wedding, although my dad seems convinced if he was dead, it would've said deceased at the side of his name.


In theory, yes, but in practice not necessarily, because the ones writing the information would only write down what they told. ie if Thomas just answered "William Sadler" to the question "father's name?" then that is all you will find.
And in certain family structures there may be no way of knowing if the parent is dead or alive.
So it is all a bit 'hit and miss'!! :confused::confused::confused:

The message is that nothing can be assumed until it all other possibilities have been eliminated.

Good luck

It could be worth while trawling through will information in the locality where they lived.

Michael

[SearchingSadler]

aah, didn't think of that Michael, thanks.

It did strike me to check in Newark re: wills, burials etc. I'm sure my dad would've, he seems to think he's exhausted all avenues. I will check with him today where exactly he's checked locally and what for.

If he just up and left Newark with his inheritance from his grandad, we may never find him. Searching for the death of someone over a possible 40year period in every county in England, well..........!


In theory, yes, but in practice not necessarily, because the ones writing the information would only write down what they told. ie if Thomas just answered "William Sadler" to the question "father's name?" then that is all you will find.
And in certain family structures there may be no way of knowing if the parent is dead or alive.
So it is all a bit 'hit and miss'!! :confused::confused::confused:

The message is that nothing can be assumed until it all other possibilities have been eliminated.

Good luck

It could be worth while trawling through will information in the locality where they lived.

Michael

[michaelpipe]

This family is in Brewet’s Place, Nottingham St Mary in 1841

HO107; Piece 870; Folio: 5; Page: 3

Mary Saddler, age 37, born Nottinghamshire – can’t read Mary’s ‘occupation’
Thomas Saddler, age 15, J (Job?) Painter, born Nottinghamshire
Anne Saddler, age 15, Shop Girl, born Nottinghamshire

Michael

I have had another look at the 1841 census and it says that Mary's 'occupation' is 'independent', meaning that she is of independent means. This would usually, but not always, indicate that she had been widowed, so there is a great possibility that William died sometime between 1825 and 1841, probably in Nottinghamshire. You need to check the Notts burial index for that time period- the answer might be there.

Michael

[Procat]

Just checked the burial index (version 1) and none that fits.

The only two are:

William Sadler 19 Jan 1832 Age 81
William Sadler 17 Aug 1831 Age 69

[michaelpipe]

Procat
The William in question was baptised in 1801. Last 'sighting' 1825 Newark

Michael

[Procat]

Hi Michael,

Sorry I made a confusing post.

What I was trying to say was that I could not find any that fit the criteria and that the only two William Sadlers recorded 1825 - 1841 are these two.

[michaelpipe]

Sorry Procat, yes I realise that. Didn't mean to appear abrupt. The other option for this William is that he absconded and left the family. Could be a hard one to find.

Michael

[Procat]

Didn't take it as abrupt Michael. :)

You may be correct about him doing a runner. Of course, it is possible that the Notts burials index has simply not got to him yet.

[SearchingSadler]

oooh thanks so much for that.

Can I take it that the notts burial index, is an ongoing thing? Is that what you meant.

Could independant mean has independant money and doesn't have to work for a living? But then theres no mention of William is there, although she could well have had his money to live on.

oooh done a runner hey? He better flaming well not have, my dad's stuck him on some kind of pedastal lol

This burial index, is there anywhere I can go to look at it? Sorry, new to all this tracing paperwork stuff

and thanks so much for your help and look-ups x

[Procat]

Can I take it that the notts burial index, is an ongoing thing? Is that what you meant.

Indeed it is. Created by the Nottinghamshire Family History Society (http://www.nottsfhs.org.uk/). They are now at version 2 (though I only have version 1).

Could independant mean has independant money and doesn't have to work for a living? But then theres no mention of William is there, although she could well have had his money to live on.

oooh done a runner hey? He better flaming well not have, my dad's stuck him on some kind of pedastal lol

Most of us have at least one in the family who has disappeared. :)

This burial index, is there anywhere I can go to look at it? Sorry, new to all this tracing paperwork stuff

You could try your local FHS. Or purchase it.

and thanks so much for your help and look-ups x..

[SearchingSadler]

..

thanks procat, will look at the notts fhs site.

The buriel index, by go and look I meant, at info they hadn't transcribed yet? Sorry not sure if they are doing it from a big central bank of information, or if they are trawling round churches etc for the info.

sorry, not explaining myself very well.

[michaelpipe]

thanks procat, will look at the notts fhs site.

The buriel index, by go and look I meant, at info they hadn't transcribed yet? Sorry not sure if they are doing it from a big central bank of information, or if they are trawling round churches etc for the info.

sorry, not explaining myself very well.

Most of the information for the National Burial Index is gathered by respective county Family History Societies. Some counties work faster than others dependant on their resources (money and volunteers). Sometimes progress is erratic, but always progressive.

Michael

[SearchingSadler]

Can I just check, Nottingham St. Mary....is that Mary Magdelene church at Newark, where Williams children were baptised?


Was Williams name on the son's marriage cert in 1850 a signature as a witness, or only named as his father? If the latter he could have died some time earlier.

I found this one in Nottingham - don't know if it is of any significance.

This family is in Brewet’s Place, Nottingham St Mary in 1841

HO107; Piece 870; Folio: 5; Page: 3

Mary Saddler, age 37, born Nottinghamshire – can’t read Mary’s ‘occupation’
Thomas Saddler, age 15, J (Job?) Painter, born Nottinghamshire
Anne Saddler, age 15, Shop Girl, born Nottinghamshire

Michael

[michaelpipe]

No, on the census that it St Mary's parish in Nottingham itself,

Michael

[SearchingSadler]

Now then, that makes more sense to me, because at some point Ann and Thomas came to Nottingham.

We assumed that they had perhaps stayed in Newark and that Ann had met her husband to be (from Nottingham) and come here with him, followed by her brother Thomas, but maybe the family had come earlier and was in fact already here when she met her husband.

The info I have on them being in Nottingham is:

Ann, came to Nottingham and married Edward Cooper at Snenton Church (now spelt Sneinton) 9/9/1850. Edward Cooper of Snenton Road, was a lacemaker, son of Thomas Cooper, a cordwainer). They lived on Newcastle Street and Thomas her brother lodged with them when he initially came to Nottingham.

Not 100% where my dad got the info, about them coming to nottingham and thomas lodging with them when he initially came to nottingham, could be that they were already here.

So....I think I need to check:
1) Where was Brewets Place, more than one St. Marys church in Nottingham possibly.
2) census for Edward and Ann Cooper, (are census every 10yrs, i.e. 1841, 1851)?
3) Find out which St. Marys church it was and check burial records for William Sadler from 1825 onwards or at least until the 1841 census when he doesn't appear alongside Mary, Thomas, Ann.
4) There was another sister, Elizabeth b.31/1/1822, she may well have married by the 1841 census, she'd be 19....

Anything glaringly obvious I should check?

I'm having to learn as I go both on what to check, and where the info is held.

Thanks

[michaelpipe]

Hello again,

Quote:
So....I think I need to check:
1) Where was Brewets Place, can't find on maps, but St Mary's parish was fairly central in Nottingham. This is a new map: http://www.nottinghamcity.gov.uk/www/maps/default.asp?

......more than one St. Marys church in Nottingham possibly.
Don't think so, not in Nottingham town as it was then. St Mary's was one of the main parochial divisions of Nottingham - see this page http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/NTT/Nottingham/StMary/

2) census for Edward and Ann Cooper, (are census every 10yrs, i.e. 1841, 1851)? Yes, every 10 years starting with 1841

3) Find out which St. Marys church it was and check burial records for William Sadler from 1825 onwards or at least until the 1841 census when he doesn't appear alongside Mary, Thomas, Ann. You might strike it lucky in the parish of St Mary's - worth a look. The LDS have a film of the Bishop's Transcripts up to 1827. If you are near an LDS family history centre this would be the easiest way to look at the records. You can check what records they have on line.

4) There was another sister, Elizabeth b.31/1/1822, she may well have married by the 1841 census, she'd be 19.... might help


Hope this helps a bit. If only William had left some traces!! But then genealogy is always "if only".

Michael

[SearchingSadler]

ok, I can't believe the coincidence in this!

St Marys was a church that was a 3min walk (you could see it) from offices that I worked at a good few years ago.

My dad has had a look on an old map he has and spotted that St. Marys had 3 burial grounds, near the church.

I sat there and felt like a lightening bolt had hit me!

When I worked at these offices, there was a lovely lovely garden type area at the back, grassed areas, well established trees, BUT gravestones all around the outside edge. When we enquired to the landlord he said, oh they were moved for safety. Anyhows, there was ground movement some time later, and erm because we were young ladies, and there were big burly builders working out there, we'd go out there at lunchtime.

We'd sit on the grass (possibly on the graves, but we didn't think about that at the time).

So it comes to them moving some of these gravestones about, and someone pointed out to me, laughing of course, ooh look theres one with your name on!!

I'm in shock, William may have died, William may have been buried at St. Marys, it could have been Williams gravestone.

Anyone else find that soooo weird!

I've multimaped it and viewed around the back of the building and you can still see the trees and grassed area, so I'm off for a wander one day this week ;)

[michaelpipe]

You could be onto something here - good luck

Michael

[SearchingSadler]

Thanks Michael, I still can't believe the 'weirdness' of it all!

[SearchingSadler]

Rang the owners of the building where I used to work, and need to speak to a particular lady, Friday morning. She may be able to help as to whether the bodies were re-interred or are in fact still there.

Rang the Home Office, Coroners Department of DCA, no answer. Been told by local archives office they would know also if the bodies were re-interred.

The Local Archives will have details of St. Mary Nottinghams burials for the time period I'm interested in, so provided I can offload 4 kids on school holidays to my mum, I shall go down there (with a pack lunch, aspirin for the microfiche) and camp for the day lol.

Hope its not a dead end.

If I really was sitting on him, having my lunch, well thats just too freaky to think about!

Got through to the Coroners Department, its not them, they said the church. Rang them, they are checking and calling me back