Disappointment!

[caliope]

I had sent off to York for a copy of my gg grandfather's will which I knew existed as it was mentioned in a Death Duty Register with the name of the executor etc. I received a letter back today saying they were unable to find the will and searched from 1893 to 1896 (he died in 1893). I was very disappointed.

Should I give up at this point? Could the will have been proved later? His wife died in 1901 so could his will have been proved then? Also, he lived in Somerset where I understand many wills did not survive WWII bombings at Exeter. Is there any way to tell whether the will may have been proved later or just no longer exists?

Sorry for the twenty questions but can someone advise what they would do at this point?

Many thanks.

[oxon57]

I would start by stating what I know/have in detail so that forum members more familiar with these things might be able to offer some guidance. I do not pretend to be an expert myself, so some of this may be corrected by those who are, but a few things spring to mind.

For example...

(1) The first obvious thing - the person's name would help.

(2) If it is indeed a case of a will made c.1893 and destroyed in WW2, I don't think anyone reprinted the National Probate Calendar and deleted entries for wills that were destroyed, so there should still be an entry in the Calendar for 1893 or thereabouts - that may provide some useful information.

(3) What exactly do you mean by it being "mentioned in a Death Duty Register". Given your location, unless you've had someone look it up for you, I suspect that you don't mean a Death Duty Register, you mean the Death Duty Register index, because death duty registers that late are not on film. If the will has been lost, the death duty register entry is usually the next best thing, but without paying for research you'd have to hope that someone is going to the National Archives and willing to look it up for you.

[Peter Goodey]

I believe that what you say about lost Somerset wills applies to pre-1858 wills only.

If, as Oxon suggested, you have used an online index, have you obtained a copy of the registry entry itself? My memory is hazy here but surely a date of probate is included somewhere*?

You could also check the National Probate Calendar. I understand that the Mormons can supply it on film.

*Can you order a registry entry via Shop Online using the data from the index? I'm hazier about this than I thought :confused:

[oxon57]

My memory is hazy here but surely a date of probate is included somewhere
Mine also, but what I'm thinking here is...
Common sense says that you cannot deal with the tax on an estate *before* the will is proved. I am not sure whether the tax side of things was always dealt with immediately or whether, say, a will proved in late 1900 may turn up in the death duty register for 1901, but if we have the person's name and year of the death duty register entry concerned, even if, as I suspect, it's only from the index, then we know what we are looking for in terms of "not later than", don't we?

Re Exeter. I didn't mention it because I don't have any westcountry wills so I'm totally unfamiliar with the all the details, but that's what my memory of what I've seen written about it told me too. I do wonder if, perhaps, we may be looking at an administration grant rather than a will, and somebody at York is being unhelpfully pedantic.

[Colin Moretti]

... Could the will have been proved later? His wife died in 1901 so could his will have been proved then? ...That's certainly a real possibility. If he left all his estate to his wife she might not have bothered to have the will proved, it might even have been below the level at which probate was necessary. When his wife died the situation would have been different and his executors (or hers) would then have had to have had the will proved to deal with anything that she left, including any legacy from her husband.

I have a will written in 1890, just before the death of the testator, that was not proved until 1901 when he (or rather his heirs) came into some money that he had been left many years previously.

If reference to a will has been found in death duty registers then it must have been proved before 1904, registers from that date until 1931 have been destroyed, apparently.

Somerset wills:The story of Somerset's wills is a sad one. Having been centralised at Exeter, most of the county's original probate records before 1858 were destroyed by German bombing in 1942, as were those for Devon.http://www.somerset.gov.uk/archives/Wills.htm

If it is indeed a case of a will made c.1893 and destroyed in WW2, I don't think anyone reprinted the National Probate Calendar and deleted entries for wills that were destroyed As the PPR calendars were compiled centrally and the originals can be viewed in Holborn, and as they are a record of proved wills I would be very surprised if reference to a lost will was removed, I would have thought that that would have been a particularly good reason for retaining the reference.

Colin

[caliope]

Thank you all for that information.

I found my ancestor's name on the findmypast Death Duty Register. It gives the name of the deceased, residence, date of death, executor, registry, whether it was a will or an administration and the number of the affidavit (don't know what this would be). The DDR stated mine was a will not an administration.

My ancestor was Francis Fry Sanders who died Dec 15, 1893 Wellington Somerset. On the FMP Death Duty Register, it looks as though his name is spelt Frances Sanders. Perhaps, foolishly, I didn't ask for a will for Frances Sanders, I asked for Francis Fry Sanders as I believed that his will didn't actually say FRANCES. Did this work against me? Would you have asked for Frances Sanders?

That's good news, Peter, (in this case anyway) about the bombings not affecting THIS will.

I will visit the LDS church next week and see if they have heard of the National Probate Calendar (it's a very small library, so it's in doubt). I'm assuming then that this calender will tell me when the will was proved?

Sorry for all the questions but obtaining this will would provide a lot of answers for this family!

[oxon57]

"Sorry for all the questions".
No need to be - questions are always welcomed on any decent forum.

Now...

"I found my ancestor's name on the findmypast Death Duty Register."
FindMyPast do not have death duty registers - what you are looking at, as suspected, is the index to death duty registers.
However, from other comments, it looks as if we won't need the death duty register as a substitute for the will after all, which is probably just as well, because, having looked at that index entry, I see that there is no folio number listed. I *think* that means no tax was payable and there won't be any information in the actual register, so paying a researcher (or using TNA's own copy service that Peter mentioned, if you can) would, I suspect, be money down the drain.

"... it looks as though his name is spelt Frances Sanders."
I think you are probably right. Difficult to be 100% certain, there's what should presumably be a Nicholas a few lines above in the same writing who looks more like Necholas, but if you asked me what your one said and I didn't know the story, yes, I would say "Frances".

"I asked for Francis Fry Sanders as I believed that his will didn't actually say FRANCES. Did this work against me?"
Quite possibly. At York, they would go by what the National Probate Calendar entry says, not the DDR index, but if "Frances" is not simply carelessness on the part of the clerk who wrote that index entry, then that may be the reason they failed to find it. Also, if the NPC entry, like this index entry, does not include the middle name "Fry", that too could have a bearing on things.

As you say, it's marked as a will not an admon, the death date shown is 15 December 1893 - and it's in the index for 1893, therefore the will must have been proved in 1893, and I would not spend more money than you already have asking York to try 1897 onwards - under some spelling or other, it should be in the National Probate Calendar for 1893.

"I'm assuming then that this calender will tell me when the will was proved?"
Yes - though, as above, we now know that it must have been 1893, and, while you would obviously want to record the exact date yourself, the year is sufficient for other purposes.

"I will visit the LDS church next week and see if they have heard of the National Probate Calendar"
Assuming that they have, it won't do any harm at all to familiarise yourself with it, but...
While I do not make a habit of volunteering for this sort of thing because, frankly, I find trawling through years on fiche extremely tedious and save my will look-ups for a once or twice a year London trip where I can use the books, much easier, as we now know *exactly* what we are looking for, I will be quite happy to skip my second cup of coffee at lunchtime, take a look and report back.

[Geoffers]

I will visit the LDS church next week and see if they have heard of the National Probate Calendar (it's a very small library, so it's in doubt). I'm assuming then that this calender will tell me when the will was proved?

I have never used one of the mormon church record centres, but understand from replies on these forums that the probate calendar is available through them. It is very simple to use, indexing people alphabetically by surname and forename. The calendar gives more information than the GRO death index, making it normally possible to identify individuals. You are likely to find in each entry:

Name and Surname. When and where died. Sometimes an address (if different to placeof death). Name of executor(s)/administrator(s), sometimes a relationship, sometimes an occupation, sometimes a town where they lived. Value of estate, when and where probate/admon was granted.

It is worthwhile becoming familiar with this useful resource.

[Peter Goodey]

From the Family History Library Catalogue...

"Calendar of the grants of probate and letters of administration made in the Principal Registry : and in the several district registries of Her Majesty's Court of Probate"

542 microfilm reels ; 35 mm.

Vol. 7-8 S-Z Wills and Admins. 1893 FHL BRITISH Film 251359

Vol. 6-8 N-Z Wills and Admins. 1894 FHL BRITISH Film 251362

etc etc

[oxon57]

Right, the good news is that I found the entry in the National Probate Calendar.
The bad news, caliope, is that you now owe me for the cost of one very stiff drink and half an hour on the psychiatrist's couch, these being necessary as part of the process of restoring my sanity.
(ONLY JOKING !)

I said at the start that I don't pretend to be an expert. It's probably just as well, because if I was under the illusion that I was, I would have looked at 1893, not found it, tried "Saunders" as an alternative, not found it, concluded that somebody making up the calendar had lost track of where they were and missed an entry, and come back with nothing. Instead, I assumed that I must be a complete idiot who does not understand the first thing about what he is looking at, and found it...

...in 1896
SANDERS Francis of Cornhill Wellington Somerset shoemaker died 15 December 1893 Probate Taunton 23 October to Edward Sanders shoemaker Effects £10.
Please don't ask me how we end up with an 1893 death duty index entry for a will that was not proved until 23 October 1896, because I have absolutely no idea!

At any rate, there's your entry - and with the correct "Francis" spelling. As you said in your original message that York had searched 1893 to 1896, it seems that either somebody at York needs new glasses or your inclusion of the middle name "Fry", which does not appear, has led to some pedantic person with absolutely no initiative deciding that this could not possibly be the person you were interested in, so it wasn't worth mentioning this one to you.

Whether or not they will make you pay again "Because you didn't give us the correct name" I would not like to predict, but, one way or another, if you get back to them, tell them that you've since been given the details from the National Probate Calendar for 1896, and quote that entry, they shouldn't then have any trouble finding it.

[oxon57]

Now that I'm back home, with time on my hands, I had another look at the Death Duty Register index.

In that 1893 entry, after Taunton, it says "OD/96". I have no idea what "OD" stands for, but, as we found the National Probate Calendar entry in 1896, "OD/96" is presumably some sort of cross reference to 1896, and if we look in the 1896 Death Duty Register index, we find that the entry is repeated. This time, the name is clearly "Francis", the "i" is dotted, but other details are the same, including this "OD/96" reference, not "OD/93", a cross reference back to 1893.

So, I *guess* that the thing to do here is, if you find a Death Duty Register index entry with "OD" and a later year indicated, look at that year in the National Probate Calendar. That could be worth remembering, but what it actually means I do not know.

[caliope]

Oxon57, you are wonderful! Thank you!

In my job, I often have to deal with seriously cranky people. Today was a typical day so you can imagine my delight when I read your messages. How kind of you to go to all of that trouble (unfortunately no stiff drink or therapy but a big hug from across the water)!

I shall write to York again with the information you've provided. It is annoying that they also didn't take a closer look at the COPY of the relevant page of the Death Duty Register index I sent along with my request. However, I am so happy right now that I have this information, it isn't even that bothersome.

Peter and Geoffers, thank you for your comments on the National Probate Calender. I will talk to the LDS about it next week. Being able to search the calender as Oxon57 did would be a godsend.

[Geoffers]

Caliope - when you do apply for a copy of the will - use only the detail kindly provided by Oxon that is the information under which the will is recorded and by which a copy will be produced.

[oxon57]

Caliope, I'm not wonderful - just a bad loser, I hate being defeated by the system - and you're welcome, it was no trouble at all, honestly. I am very fortunate in that, although I live in Cambridge, I work in Chelmsford, five minutes brisk walk from Essex Record Office, where there's no need to book a reader - as long as you have your reader's ticket, you can just stroll in and get on with it.

Essex stay open at lunchtime, open on Saturday (so if I'm working Saturday morning, I can pop in there for the afternoon), and have a late night on Monday, when the office functions as normal, so it's also possible to visit after work once a week.

Cambridge close for an hour at lunchtime, and do not open on Saturday. They do have a late night "by appointment" on Tuesday - but all original documents have to be ordered in advance, so if, on reading document (A), you find something that makes you realise you also need to look at document (B), you will have to wait until next time.

The staff at Cambridge are just as helpful as at Chelmsford - but if you are working you may never find that out, as the council seem to be determined to make it as difficult as possible for anyone who is working to visit the place!

[caliope]

I am writing to York tonight and will only mention the information provided by Oxon. Hopefully, they will get it right.

How envious I am of you good people in England who live so close to Record Offices where these things are available! As people abroad can attest, it is terribly difficult and tedious to get any information. As my LDS is only open one day a week to the public, I have to wait until that day to go in after work, pay for and order the film then wait 4-5 weeks for it to come in from Salt Lake. The information is then available to me for 4 weeks. I see from Oxon's message that I would have ordered the 1893 Probate Calender and not found my ancestor there.

I am planning a "genealogy vacation" sometime in the near future to Somerset and Devon to visit towns my ancestors lived in along with many many visits to Record Offices. I can't wait. My husband is somewhat less enthused.

Funny, Oxon, there is a Chelmsford close to where I live, of course named after the English original. Thank you again!

[caliope]

Hello oxon57,

I received my gg grandfather's will in the mail. It didn't mention my g grandmother as I was hoping BUT it did confirm the addresses of two of his sons so I was able to find them on the censuses!

Thanks again for your kind help!

[oxon57]

Oh good, I'm glad you got it without any problems this time, and more than happy to have played a small part in it - it's not often that I manage to do something useful.