Mystery photo

[Maid Marian]

Hi everyone
I would be really interested to hear your opinions, and hopefully get some advice on this photo and where to search next.

The story behind it is as much a mystery too!
My late MIL was a lady who didn't like to talk about 'certain things' We know there were a couple of scandals in the family but she never would discuss them and they remain a mystery to this day.

She didn't live long enough to see us complete our family, but during my first 2 pregnancies, and immediately after giving birth, her first question was always 'is the baby the right size/length?' When I questioned this specific concern once, she just raised her eyebrows and said nothing!!

Some years later after both MIL and FIL had died, we were clearing out their house & I came across a box of oddments including old letters,drawings,school reports, & other general ephemera related to her family.

The following photo was amongst these items.

Now, I believe it was my MIL's family as she clearly kept little memorabilia, and my FIL did not have anything at all from his family, so I believe the people in the photo are on her side. This would narrow down the likely surnames to FRENCH or MONCKTON or possibly GILLHAM or KILLICK. I have no idea who the people in the photo are but it would explain MIL's concern when I was pregnant. I don't know if the couple are married, and if so, which one of them would be the 'blood relative'.

The photographer was in Devon. I have not yet found any connection to Devon in the Victorian era on my MIL's side.
My husband has very vague childhood recollections to hearing his mother speak of ancestors who were either a circus act or variety act and he seems to think this could be the ancestor she was talking about.

I have not found anyone on the census so far, whose occupation was in the entertainment field though.

I have been trying to date the photo, and have found the photographer on the 1881 census, though his address was 61 Union Street. In 1881 no. 58 was a dwelling.
I have not found the photographer on the 1891 census.

It is difficult putting an age to the couple as well.

My questions are this -
1] What date would you think the photo was taken given the info on the back of the photo.
2]Would the couple be married given the pose, or is there a possibility they were siblings.
3] Where would I find any info on Music Hall/Circus acts that may have performed in the Plymouth area.

Any other thoughts you might have would be most welcome!!

Not knowing the identity of these people is driving me insane!!!! :D

http://s34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/sp54s/family%20history/?action=view&current=photodetails.jpg

Many thanks for any tips!!

[Mutley]

There are a lot of links on this site, it can take hours to go around it.:)

http://users.nwon.com/pauline/Travellers.html

[Maid Marian]

Thank you very much for the link,Mutley :D

I will have a really good look around that now

[Hugh Thompson]

:)Palmer, John
I found this in PHOTO LONDON,there were two others but they didn't seem to have any connection to Plymouth. Regards Hugh.
Born 1850. Died 1898.
Biography

Palmer, John
Born in Plymouth 1850.
1881: photographer living at 6 Upper North Street, Islington.
Died in St Pancras 1898.
Occupations

Photographer 1881

[Maid Marian]

Hugh, thank you ever so much.

That would narrow the date down considerably.

I will check the 1891 census again now

[MarkJ]

Assuming that is the same John Palmer, then I suspect you need to look at the period between 1872 (the most recent date on the back of the photo) and 1881 - where Hugh mentions him living in London. So, presuming he practiced between 72 and 81 in Plymouth, there will not be a census record for him. Trade directories, such as Kellys or Whites, would be my port of call I think.

Mark

Edit: Sadly, the useful resource, historicaldirectories.org may now be offline. I did try to look, but the page won't load :(
I did find this -
http://www.cartes.freeuk.com/a2003/palmb.jpg
which shows the back of a Palmer photo - with a slightly different logo than your one. It lists 58 Union Street as the address - no mention of George Street.

More Edit! Looking at the ladies dress, it almost looks as though it is perhaps a national costume for somewhere - perhaps a Scandinavian country or Eastern Europe?
Plymouth is of course a major Naval port - so there *could* be a connection there with sea travel perhaps?
It is certainly interesting, especially when questions were raised when your own children were born. Not being an expert on medical conditions of this sort, I guess the two people in the photo have a genetic condition - e.g achondroplasia? Which, if they are ancestors, may be the cause of your questioning.

[Peter_uk_can]

That sure is one huge chair :rolleyes:

[Mahala]

So, presuming he practiced between 72 and 81 in Plymouth, there will not be a census record for him. Trade directories, such as Kellys or Whites, would be my port of call I think.


White's History, Gazetteer & Directory of Devon 1878-79 has John E. Palmer at 61 Union St., Stonehouse, listed under Photographers, page 1049.

:)

[Lenore]

More Edit! Looking at the ladies dress, it almost looks as though it is perhaps a national costume for somewhere - perhaps a Scandinavian country or Eastern Europe?


The decoration and style of the clothing, and the hairstyle of the woman, dates to the 1870s. It is not a national costume, just fashionable.

Best wishes,

Lenore

[Jillychris]

If you put Plymouth Data into a search engine you will find a web site with loads of information about Plymouth.

Regards
Jill

[Lenore]

Not knowing the identity of these people is driving me insane!!!! :D


Hello Maid Marian,

I forgot to say that photos of circus acts, royalty and other entertainers were popular purchases by more ordinary folk. It is possible that your MIL made the error of thinking that the photo was a family photo, and that her hints and concerns were based on nothing more than having seen the photo as a child and not knowing the background. (How boring would that be! Far more interesting to have some circus folk in the family.)

Best wishes,

Lenore

[ash33au]

My dad backed this up. He remembers being taken to see one of those old freakshows in a travelling caravan as a youngin' and apparently everyone was buying heaps of photo's. This was in the 1950s when access to such things was more readily available so you can imagine how curious people would have been in the 1800s.

[Maid Marian]

Thanks everyone :D

I see what your saying about the curiosity factor, but it would be unlike my my late MIL to get something wrong like that and it was with other old assorted family documents and memorabilia. Had it been my FIL however I would think it was possible that it was nothing more than a curiosity as he was not so bothered by his families past ;) and quite likely to make that mistake.

Thanks ever so for narrowing the date down to the 1870's. I will intensify my search of the 1881 census and try to think 'out of the box' so to speak.

I will let you all know if I find anything!!

Thanks again :D

[charlie7]

i'm sure i have seen this photo on a website when i have been looking for other people,i can't remember the website it was on but i think it was something to do with the real tom thumb who was a circus act and i'm also sure it was in victorian times,it may have been when i was reading about primordial dwarfs and i just clicked another link,