DNA. Is this possible to test out for mothers male ancestors?

[benny1982]

Hi

Is it possible to compare to see if your DNA matches that of the living descendants of an ancestor whose line is not a direct one eg one of your mothers mothers mothers fathers sons line for instance instead of just the male descendants of the paternal line or the female descendants of the maternal line?

If it is, I wouldnt mind maybe testing this out.

Ben

[arthurk]

Hi Ben

As far as I know, what you're looking for isn't going to be possible using the tests currently available. Basically you need to look at a direct male or female line, although women can sometimes check the male line by having a brother, father, uncle, cousin etc tested. Men inherit the mitochondrial (female) DNA of their mother, but do not pass it on.

In the example you give, you are so far removed from the male (your 2x great grandfather) that by my reckoning, the most a male test could tell you is that two of your 3rd cousins are related to each other, which probably isn't of much use. However, if your 2x great grandparents had any other daughters, then your mitochondrial DNA should be the same as has been passed down the other female lines as far as and including any male descendants (but not the descendants of those males).

Hope this helps,
Arthur

[benny1982]

Hi Arthur

My gggrandmother was born Mary AK Roberts. She is my mums, mums, mums mother. Her father was Thomas Roberts. So Thomas wed into my maternal line. Thomas had an elder daughter by his first marriage. He had two sons, one of whom died in infancy.

Thomas was not married to Mary AK's mum at the time of her birth but they wed shortly afterwards and Thomas and Mary then baptised their daughter. I believe they knew each other maybe a few years before their marriage. His wife had been ill for a while before she died, so I believe my gggran was the result of an extra marital relationship in which her fthare wed her mum after his wife died.

I know he was the father, but I dont suppose it is possible to do a direct DNA test to prove it for sure as this is bugging me because he was my fave ancestor. Or will I have to go through a more complicated route? This is a bit confusing.

Sorry to sound as if I am repeating myself.

Ben

[arthurk]

Hi again

The only way I can think of to get anywhere close to what you're looking for is if Thomas Roberts had a son by each of his wives, and you could test someone in a direct male line from each of them. Obviously this wouldn't include the female line leading to your mother, but it might go a little way towards confirming the relationships.

If you'd like to go into this in more detail, can I suggest the International Society of Genetic Genealogy at http://www.isogg.org/ . They have a useful website, and various forums and mailing lists where you might find more expert help than I can provide.

Arthur

[benny1982]

Hi

Thos Roberts had a son by his first wife who died as a baby in 1861 aged 1. He had another son in 1870 who lived. He had sons himself.

It would be nice to confirm it, but I am sure Thos Roberts was Mary AK's biological father. The baptism is a big enough clue, in that he had an extra marital relationship while his wife was ill and when his wife died, he married the mother of his lovechild and they had more children.

Ben

[arthurk]

Have you exhausted all the non-DNA routes? For example, did Thomas leave a will in which he might have stated explicitly what his relationship was to Mary AK? And in census returns, is she listed as his daughter or step-daughter? What about certificates - Mary AK's birth and marriage; Thomas's death (in case she registered it and a relationship is given)?

One of the things about DNA testing is that while it can be invaluable in some cases, it only tests the direct link to 2 people in each generation - which excludes 14 of your 2x great grandparents.

Arthur

[benny1982]

Hi

Mary AK was born in Dec 1863 and registered under her mums maiden name of Walder. Her father and mother wed in 1864 when she was 6 months old after moving to London from Sussex, so they knew each other in Sussex. I think Thos has an extra marital relationship as his previous wife was ill when Mary AK was actually concieved in about Apr 1863. Thos Roberts had rellies in London so he moved Mary Walder to London to be nearer to his family.

After her parents wed, Mary AK was baptised as the daughter of Thomas & Mary Ann Roberts, and both the 1871 and 1881 census says that she was his actual daughter and when she wed, she says Thomas Roberts was her father on the cert. Thos didnt leave a will as he died in almost poverty in a London hospital.

Ben

[arthurk]

You seem to have it pretty well covered. Absolute proof would be good, I know, but I don't think DNA testing is going to be able to provide that in its current state of development, if ever.

Arthur

[benny1982]

Hi

I read your PM about this.

Also, Thomas and Mary Ann were churchgoers, and it is unlikely that they'd lie in church by Thomas baptising Mary AK as his natural daughter if she wasnt, so it is certain that Thomas was the blood father.

Ben