Spy in the family??

[Mary S (WA)]

There is a rumour that my grandfather was a spy. Since he was a policeman, came from Ireland and apparently disappeared from time to time it might well be true. If so, he was probably in Ireland as there were "troubles". I have applied to the FOI (with an email) but have had no response. How would I go about finding out? He died in the 1960s and I wouldn't have thought it mattered any more!
Cheers. Mary

[ChristineR]

Do you have his police service record? I think that would be the first step.

I think it will take more than an email to get access to it - there will be forms to fill out. You will also need to have been refused the service record by the relevant authority before you approach the Freedom of Information people.

ChristineR

[Fidgetsmum]

I'm afraid there's no short answer to your question Mary.

You don't say whether your grandad was a member of the Royal Ulster Constabulary or the Garda Síochána, the southern Irish Police.

If it was the latter, go to http://www.garda.ie/ and follow the links, there's a section entitled How can I obtain old service records of a parent/grandparent who served in the Garda Síochána?

I suspect though, you feel he belonged to the RUC whose website at http://www.psni.police.uk/, you've probably already visited.

Although you don't say when your grandad served, the troubles in NI did not just begin in the 1960s, there is a school of thought that holds they really began in the 1920s and thus, security issues have been around since that time.

Now the boring bit ....

You may have seen that there is a section on the RUC website entitled Freedom of Information - Right of Access. However, and it's a big however, despite it saying that under the FOI Act the general public have access to all types of information, there is the caveat which reads ... with certain exemptions applied if necessary.

In effect, (and this can apply to any information - even personnel records), if it is felt that the information you request may be, or may be deemed to be, injurious to the State (i.e. in the form of national security), then I'm afraid your chances of getting that information are slim to none. So ... if your Grandad was engaged in security issues, quite simply you won't be told.

But sadly, it doesn't end there. Any member of the police force (whether the RUC or indeed any other) would, by definition, be involved in security matters in some way or another and, although with the Good Friday Agreement et.al. things are much more settled in Northern Ireland these days, I suspect all records will be witheld for some considerable time yet - my 'best guess' would be certainly for at least 50 years after the death of the last person known to have had any involvement whatsoever and however tenuous, in the troubles, possibly longer.

And finally - the FOI Act doesn't just mean we can all walk in and demand whatever we want, in most cases you have to say why you want the information and why you haven't been able to get it elsewhere. Unfortunately, under the terms of the Act, the answer to why you want the information, often has to be more than 'because I'm interested in my family history.' It would have to be, for instance, if you were persuing a claim against the Government - say in the case of a soldier on Christmas Island in the 1950s.

In fact, you can find a wealth of explanation about the FOI Act here:

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Governmentcitizensandrights/Yourrightsandresponsibilities/DG_4003239

Now - having said all that and thoroughly depressed you (|hug|), why not just write to the RUC (if that's where you believed he served), tell them you're researching your grandad who died in the 1960s, that you believe he served with them and ask if they'll be good enough tell you when he served (if you don't already know) and where. I'm guessing their reply won't actually include the words, 'by the way, between 19** and 19** he was a spy,' but often a softly-softly type letter receives more sypmathetic consideration than quoting Acts of Parliament at them.

I told you there was no short answer - but, if you've managed to stay awake, I hope this helps.

F'smum

[Peter Goodey]

What did it say about his occupation on his death certificate, the birth certificates of his children and his marriage certificate?

Once you know for sure who his employers were, the question boils down to a simple question of obtaining his service record.

[hughar]

I'm a bit confused by the story, and the long reply about Irish police.

If I read you correctly, your GF was born in Ireland, came to England, where he was a policeman, and from time to time he disappeared. The suggestion is that during those disappearances he was back in Ireland 'undercover'. And he died in the 1960s.

Is that correct - and are we talking about Nicholas Casey here?

[Mary S (WA)]

Thanks one and all for your interest and helpful suggestions.
I did get a reply form the MetPolice regarding his London Service and have emailed the relevant archivist (as required). She replied that they were snowed under due to increasing interest in research for 'Family Trees'. I have a four month wait before I get a considered reply!!!
Thanks Mary S.

[Mary S (WA)]

I'm a bit confused by the story, and the long reply about Irish police.

If I read you correctly, your GF was born in Ireland, came to England, where he was a policeman, and from time to time he disappeared. The suggestion is that during those disappearances he was back in Ireland 'undercover'. And he died in the 1960s.

Is that correct - and are we talking about Nicholas Casey here?

Yes. You got it!!!

[Elwyn Soutter]

Over the years, a lot of people from Ireland (north & south) have chosen to join English & Scottish police forces, rather than either of the Irish forces. There are many reasons for that (friends who had gone before them recommending a particular force, better pay, and in the case of the the main London force - the Metropolitan Police (the Met) - the sheer size gave better opportunities for recruitment, experience and promotion).

From what you say it looks as though your relative may have served in the Met. It was not unknown for police officers from Ireland to be asked to volunteer for work involving Irish criminals, to blend in, eg undercover work mixing with Irish people living in London, to gather intelligence. Usually they would need a cover job to hide the fact they were actually serving police officers. That would also mean severing all contact with their family, for as long as the operation lasted. (You say your relative disappeared from time to time).

If you can locate it, the police service record might make reference to this area of work, or there may be no mention of it at all. If his record shows he served with the Special Branch, that would suggest he worked on Irish terrorism, but it wasn't essential for him to be in that to be involved in undercover work.

Another possibility is that he went to work for MI5, the UK's anti-terrorist organisation, which to this day has responsibility for anti-terrorist matters in Northern Ireland. Secondments and transfers from the police to MI5 appear to have been quite common. But if that actually happened in your ancestor's case, I'd be surprised if MI5 would give you much information, even if the records relate back to the events in the 1950s or earlier, as seems to be the case. I think they have a website. You could try writing to them, but I wouldn't hold out too much hope.

Elwyn