Fave ancestor. But was he a biological one??

[benny1982]

Hi

My great, great grandmother was born Mary Ann Walder on 31 Dec 1863 in the sleepiy village of Warninglid in Sussex, registered 28 Jan 1864 under her mothers maiden name and the mum was also Mary Ann Walder, aged 24, who was the daughter and granddaughter of quite successful wheelwrights. Mary Ann was living in Warninglid in the 1861 census with her family, no occupation.

The suspected father, Thomas Roberts, a 50 year old servant and recently widowed was living a few miles away in Brighton and had been since 1857 when he left the 17th Lancers. His wife Esther died on 14 Nov 1863 after a long illness of TB according to cert, 6 weeks before his illegitimate baby's birth.

Inbetween Feb and June 1864, Mary Ann Walder and Thos Roberts moved to Stoke Newington in North London where they wed in July 1864. Mary Ann was again pregnant at the time of marriage. Thomas had a 13 year old daughter by his previous marriage to Esther. His sister lived in London as well and Thomas got a job as a servant there.

Once married, Mary Ann's illegitimate baby became a Roberts and was baptised Mary Ann Kate Roberts on the 6th Nov 1864 as "Daughter of Thomas and Mary Ann Roberts". at the church her parents wed. Would he really have her baptised as his if she wasnt???Thos and Mary Ann had their next child in March 1865, then had 4 more after that, one of whom was given Thomas mum's maiden name as a middle name.

The 1871, 1881 censuses, 1878 poor relief application and her 1886 marriage cert all refer to Thomas as Mary Ann Kate Roberts father. Thomas is one of my fave ancestors because he had a colourful life and Mary Ann Walder was his 3rd wife. I do hope he was my blood ancestor.

I think he probably was the biological father but there is always a small chance that he wasnt. Mary Ann Walder would have fallen pregnant in about early April 1863 if her babe was born in late Dec. Meaning Thos was still married but his previous wife was dying back in Brighton. Thos was also a servant and he had a well off cousin who lived not too far from Warninglid, and Warninglid is just off the London to Brighton Road.

What are your thoughts?

Ben

[Jan1954]

What a lovely story, Ben. Better than just the bare bones. :)

I take it that there is no father named on Mary's birth certificate.

I think that Mary probably was Thomas' daughter, else why would she be baptised as such? I wouldn't have thought that he would have admitted to it if she hadn't been.

Just a thought: I realise that Poor Relief was involved at one stage, but is there an outside chance that he made a will, naming her, too?

[benny1982]

Hi Jan1954

No fathers name was given on the birth cert but I think that was the case with illegitimate children.

I am glad you reckon he was the father meaning the feelindgs are mutual. Thomas Roberts died in almost poverty in 1889 leaving no will. John Walder, Thos's father-in-law made a will in 1876 leaving all his children money but Mary Ann Roberts blew hers when the family invested in a beer house in 1878 which went bust and had to be taken over by a new licensee.

Ben

[Alan Welsford]

I don't think that the taking the ROBERTS name, nor appearing as Thomas ROBERTS child in censuses is in itself of any significance at all.

This happened all the time, even where the "father" was almost certainly not the blood father.

I think it all hinges on the baptism, and on that basis alone, I think the balance of probability is that it is his child.

One of my great grandfather's sisters was born to his mother before she wed my g.g. grandfather.

That child was actually rebaptised with the new adoptive "father's" surname.

Whilst baptisms of subsequent children were recorded as you would expect, for this illegitimate daughter my g g grandmother was recorded as "single woman", despite being married. (Odd, but true!).

(In this case my belief is the daughter did not belong to the man she married).

A.

[Angelaj]

Hi,
Have you checked to see if the first illegitimate Mary Ann survived and the Mary Ann Kate is not a different child with the same name? I'm sure you've checked but having been tricked by this sort of thing myself I thought I'd mention it.
Angelaj

[benny1982]

Hi

I am 100% sure it is the same Mary Ann Kate Roberts, as Thos and Mary Ann's next child was born in March 1865, so concieved about June 1864 then. Mary Ann Kate was born on the 31 Dec 1863 so the mum wouldnt of had time to have a child inbetween Dec 1863 and March 1865.

I think the baptism helps confirm that Thomas was the blood father. As Jan said, I dont think he'd admit she was his if she wasnt, and even though sometimes they took the adoptive fathers name, as Alan said, I think it all hinges on the baptism.

I now think Thos was her biological father.

Ben

[benny1982]

Thos Roberts had to be the father. For sure. UPDATE

I have just found out that maybe Thos Roberts knew the Walders. In 1861 census in Warninglid where Mary Ann Walder lived, the Rayward neighbours of the Walders ran a grocery business, and the Walders were wheelwrights.

Three siblings, Abraham, Henry (who registered the death of first wife John Walder in 1845)and Thomas N Rayward all married in Brighton in 1856 and 1862. Henry lived in Brighton in 1851 but died back in Warninglid in 1860. In the 1871 census Abe was living at Viaduct Terrace, Brighton where Thos Roberts lived in late 1863 before moving to London with his new wife Mary Ann Walder and daughter.

The Raywards lived mainly in Clayton, just outside Brighton, and ran grocery businesses. They may have had properties in Brighton and Clayton.

If they were good friends of the Walders since about 1830 when both Rayward and Walder families lived in the same village, and had connections with Brighton, then I reckon Thos Roberts knew Mary Ann Walder through the Raywards as Thos had been in Brighton since 1857. Also, the Raywards and Walders used Warden as a middle name for a couple of their children.

Ben