Queensland Sesquicentenary and the CARR family of Warwick (QLD)

[GeoffD]

June next year, Queensland will celebrate 150 years since separation from the Colony of New South Wales. To help liven things up, Queensland Family History Society is working on a CD containing short articles about pre-separation families and individuals. If you have someone who was born or arrived before June 1859, and would like to contribute, more details can be found here:
http://www.qfhs.org.au/preseparation.htm

I am working on the BRIGHTWELL family, from Essex to Brisbane in 1857, and am trying to rustle up someone to 'do' John EASTWELL and Charlotte WARBOYS from Great Grandsden, Huntingdonshire, in 1854.

However, I've just realised that I have one great-grandmother that was born here in 1857, Harriette Anna CARR. Furthermore, I am dismayed to find that I know little about her apart from her birth date, her marriage to William Joseph HALL, her children, and her death. From her birth registration (just the on-line stuff, have yet to obtain her certificate) I see that her father was William CARR and her mother Mary THORN. Siblings after 1857, I have, but there was a whole bunch of (well, 6) certificates issued in 1854 with father William CARR and mother Mary with no surname. I will have to fork out for at least one of them to try to work out if they 'fit', but for the moment I am assuming that they either arrived sometime 1853-54 and registered a bunch of kids all at once, or were 'out bush' and didn't bother until someone official reminded them that they had to register the little blighters. This would push the date of arrival back some 12 or more years. There is no CARR - THORN marriage in the QLD BDM Index 1829-1914.

I haven't yet been able to track down an arrival, or a place of origin. So, I was wondering if there was anyone out there (probably in SE Queensland) that might just happen to be researching this family?

Thanks in advance

[ChristineR]

Hi Geoff, these are baptism records - civil reg did not begin until 1857. The cd has individual dates. Beginning with William Thorn, one would think that they are all the same family. If the surname is not in the index, then it is also probably not in the baptism record.

25/06/1849 - 1854/BBP408 Carr William Thorn William Mary -
17/10/1850 - 1854/BBP543 Carr Julia William Mary -
24/05/1852 - 1854/BBP634 Carr Mary William Mary -
24/05/1852 - 1854/BBP638 Carr John William Mary -
2/02/1854 - 1854/BBP963 Carr Robert William Mary -
25/10/ 1855 - 1854/BBP1234 Carr Thomas William Mary - (I do not know how that one works for a 1855 birth when the reg year says 1854!!)

Harriet born 4/07/1857
Reginald 3/07/1859
Sarah 6/05/1861

There is the death of a William CARR, father William CARR, 19/01/1862 - now this is probably the father - there are no more children and William Thorn is having kids in the 1870s. And the mother's name is not mentioned - it would be if it was a child - usually.

You could take pot luck on that death certificate - you would get marriage details, list of all kids, his birthplace and parents (in this case only William named) Also how long he had been in Australia. Queensland certificates are great sources of info, just like Victorian ones :D

ChristineR

[GeoffD]

Thanks for that Christine. The birth/baptism dates are handy. It was those BBP prefixed ones I was referring to. The possibility of twins helps squeeze them all into a time frame. I thought I'd found them in the 1851 census after finding a possible marriage in 1846, but the same family turned up in the 1861 census in the same place they were living in 1851. And I do vaguely remember some family tales that the CARRs were Northern Ireland Scots, whereas the possible family I was chasing was from Surrey & Middlesex.

Now, to go back through the cemeteries around Warwick - I think I might have prematurely discounted the 1862 William Carr death as being someone else of the same name. And maybe extend the search a bit towards Boonah, in the possibility that Carr's Lookout has something to do with the family.

[ChristineR]

I was going to suggest getting William Thorn Carr's marriage to Emily Law, to find his birthplace and confirm his parents, but then I remembered that the 1857 birth certificate of your Harriette will give the marriage details of her parents - as well as their ages, birth places, and also any other children (not sure if they will be listed individually with ages or just by number living and dead)

ChristineR

[GeoffD]

Yeah, I'll have to shell out for some certs. I had actually planned to investigate this family later on, but the need to do as many people as I can for the sesquicentenary CD has changed that. I'll arm myself with certs, then take a drive up to Warwick to see what I can find up there. Of course, I'm going to have to get great-grandma's birth cert as proof of "pre-1859-ness".

Anyway, I've been having fun in the QLD BDM search all morning.

[GeoffD]

Looking at the WW1 enlistments, I am finding names with birthplaces that suggest that some of the family were on the Palmer River goldfields in Cape York. Thomas CARR (b.1855) definitely lived in Atherton during WW1, because there is correspondence from the army to the local postmaster trying to get an address to send effects of a son (another William Thorn CARR, born Maytown 1892) killed in Ypres, and to arrange a pension. This is becoming interesting! I don't mind the cost of the certs if there is a good story behind it all.

[ChristineR]

Arnold Cecil Carr was also killed at Ypres,
Next of Kin - Father, William Thorn Carr, Black Soil, Herberton via Cairns, Queensland. Living at Cairns when enlisted 1916. Occupation: Miner

It gets a bit depressing sometimes, especially when the same family loses more than one son. Else the war service files are a terrific source, without them I would not have got back any further with my grandfather (and would still think I was 25% Scot)

Don't forget to check out Electoral Rolls.

If you want exact BDM dates for anyone just let me know.

ChristineR

[GeoffD]

Arnold Cecil Carr was also killed at Ypres,
Yep, and there was one other Carr died there as well. 1 in June 1917 and 2 in October 1917. So that's another three for my list for ANZAC Day. Yet another survived because he appeared to spend more time in hospital with skin problems than in the trenches.

I've been able to use Emily PAGE's (w/o Robert) death details to track down a passenger list and thence to matching FreeBMD and Census entries up until departure. Out of Coventry, Warwickshire.

Emily LAW's death details gave me her parents' marriage, but no firm matching BMD or Census yet - too many Emily LAW people being born in that part of Essex at about the same time. And definitely no passenger list as yet.

I've also been able to find out quite a lot about the ROSEBLADE family (h/o Emily Ethel CARR) and their place in the border lands between Wiltshire and Gloucestershire.



Don't forget to check out Electoral Rolls.
That'll be a next step.


If you want exact BDM dates for anyone just let me know.
I'll keep that in mind when I get closer to the finished article. Thanks for the offer. Or maybe I should just investigate getting a CD for myself.

I think I'll do one story on great-grandma Harriet and another on the whole mob descending from William CARR and Mary THORN, after I check with the QFHS that nobody else is doing them.

[ChristineR]

Since you are in Brisbane, it is a matter of popping off to your nearest library that has a family history section - they will have the cds available for perusal. There are also later BDM available that have not been put on cd - marriages and deaths. Probably have the electoral rolls as well.

The online index will eventually go the whole distance I think. It saved them a lot of work by leaving the exact dates out.

ChristineR

[GeoffD]

Oooh - I was going to go into the State Library for a day or two, but I'll check out my local library which is only 3 minutes stroll away. I know they've the passenger list transcript printouts.

[al bell]

Hi there
I'm new to all this, but just discovered your thread regarding William Carr. I am the great-grand-daughter of his son Reginald Carr (b. 1956), who was Harriet Carr's brother (Parents William Carr and Mary Thorn). I have been having trouble identifying Harriet, as you have her listed as spelling 'Harriette', and there was both a Harriet Carr (who married Stephen Ellis in 1876 in QLD) and Harriette Carr (who married William Joseph Hall in 1876 in QLD) at the same time! I am being thrown off track a little, so hopefully we are talking about the same person.

I have been passed some information from my cousin regarding William and Mary that you may be interested in. I'm just in the process of typing it up, so please let me know if you want it. Just briefly, they were from Surrey, England and married on 5th July 1846. They came to Australia on the 'Equestrian' as bounty immigrants, and arrived at Port Jackson on 16th July 1848, settling in Warwick, QLD. The list of children you have is correct - except Harriet or Harriette has got me confused!!

Any suggestions? Thanks!

[ChristineR]

Welcome to the forum Al :) I am sure that Geoff will be very pleased to hear from you.

I am pretty sure that the Harriette Ann CARR who married William Joseph HALL on 6 Sep 1876, is the daughter of William CARR and Mary THORN. Her birth was registered as Harriet Anna - 4 Sept 1857, (reg 1857/001930) Little spelling changes like that are not uncommon, especially if the persons concerned could not write. Having the similar middle name certainly helps.

During registrations of the children, her name varies between both spellings but middle name always Anna.

The other couple, Ellis and Carr did not seem to have children registered in Qld.
:)

[GeoffD]

Sorry, folks, I have been somewhat distracted over the past few months after the diagnosis of a particularly nasty and rare lymphoma. In fact, the dates of my posts give a very good guide to the last time I was feeling something resembling human. Struggling back to some kind of normality now.

It is the Harriet(te) Anna CARR who was my great-grandmother, married to Joseph William HALL.

I will try a PM to al bell.

[GeoffD]

Sydney Morning Herald of the time has articles on "Equestrian" immigrants. (http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/home) Just search for equestrian , then go to the decade 1840-1849, and they will suddenly appear as the first two hits.

71 of the immigrants sailed from Sydney on 20 July 1848 on the schooner "Columbine". Maybe William and Mary were among them.

[GeoffD]

The Maitland Mercury & Hunter River General Advertiser, Wednesday 19 July 1848 gives details of the voyage of 122 days. 8 days in the Bay of Biscay, becalmed at the equator, gales in Bass Strait and up the coast of NSW, driven past Port Jackson to Port Stephens. 6 births and 7 deaths on the voyage; most of the deaths were children.

[ChristineR]

Glad to have you back Geoff. Hope you are well on the road to better health. |hug|

In case you are not aware, Queensland BDM have recently increased the coverage of their online death and marriage indexes. But it is causing some overloading of their system.

[GeoffD]

Thanks, Christine. I'll know next Monday if I have beaten the disease. All I will have to do then is to recover from the treatment. :)

Yeah, QLD BDM is being very slow lately, what with the extra info and new format. And somehow, they have removed the B and C tags from the registration numbers, so clues as to location (Brisbane or Not Brisbane) are no longer there.

I have been researching, for the Sandgate and District Historical Society, a local notable.That has been fun - so very much of his info is on Dutch genealogical websites. However, it has led me to shipwrecks and all sorts of interesting things.

[al bell]

Hi Christine & Geoff

Thanks for all this information - and hope you are well on the road to recovery Geoff! Thanks for confirming that Harriet Anna (is that the correct spelling?) married William Joseph Hall. That's one of my missing pieces! I'm guessing that's the correct spelling, as her older brother Thomas, who married a Mary Kearney, had a daughter (b. 1895) with the same first & second names - obviously named after her aunt. Actually, her other brother Robert, also had a daughter named Harriet Alice (b 1876). Also note there were 4 Reginalds amongst that next generation - would be quite confusing at family get-togethers! Any other details on this 'branch' would be most appreciated.

I have also found the WW1 records amazing, with the ability to download PDFs of the actual personal war records - enrolments, letters from relatives etc.

I have some details about William Carr & Mary Thorne's journey from Plymouth. I also have been given the following, but not sure how accurate it is:
William Carr's parents were John Carr (b. about 1794 in Cuddington, Ewell, Surrey, England) & Hannah ? (married 1819); and Mary Thorn's parents were Issac Thorn & Mary Thomas. William & Mary married on 5 July 1846 in Tandridge, Surrey, England.

On 17th March 1848 they boarded the 800 ton barque 'Equestrian' as bounty immigrants bound for Australia. The ship sailed from Plymouth and arrived at Port Jackson on 16th July 1848. The passenger list describes Williams 'calling' as shepherd, and Mary's was 'wife'. William was 27 and Mary 24. Both were listed as Church of England and both were able to read & write. They settled in Warwick QLD.

On another note, is Carr's lookout in QLD associated with our family in any way?

Cheers for now, Al Bell

[GeoffD]

Yep, Tandridge was where they were married. The huge yew tree that stands outside the church is one of Britain's heritage trees. A search for it on the internet ("Tandridge Yew") is interesting.

William's Dad, John CARR, was born in Cuddington Ewell, as was William. Mary appears to have been born in Tandridge, though other info I have seen says Godstone. A look at the map shows that these places are pretty well one and the same. Isaac Thorn and Mary Thomas match what I have, and Mary Thorn appears to have been the youngest daughter of 6 children.

You do know that William and Mary Carr had a son, Abel, born in Godstone 10-11-1847, christened in Tandridge on 26-12-1847, died in Plymouth 13-3-1848, just before the 'Equestrian' sailed for Australia?

"The Equestrian sailed from Gravesend for Plymouth on 25 Feb 1848 to take on emigrants for Sydney. She sailed from Plymouth on March 17, 1848. 801tons, under Captain Spence, 277 emigrants and government stores."

Did you get the PM I sent? If you contact me directly, I can share what I have on the family.

As for the correct spelling, who knows? She's buried under Harriette Anna in Mt Gravatt cemetery, and that's good enough for me. Otherwise I use Harriet(te).

I, too, would like to know about Carr's Lookout.

[CynthiaE]

Hello to you all
I am another of the many great, great grandchild of William and Mary. Harriette Anna was my great grandmother.
Yes Harriette was spelt many ways. You should see spelling of another surname of my family - Kirkegaard.

Anyway I have just dicovered this site as I as looking up Cuddingdton again, it has been a couple of years since I last looked. I have previously been in contact with Geoff but I must admit we concentrated more on the Hall family

Harriette is spelt with an e on my grandfather's [Frank Carr Hall] marriage certificate. I do have to think twice about the spellings as Harriette nee Carr Hall's mother-in-law was Harriett, her sister-in-law was Harriet Hall and her daughter-in-law Frank's wife was Harriett - thankfully I would say known by her second name Grace.

How lovely to read a bit of news from a descendant of Reginald and I would love to here more.

I had done a little bit of looking into Carr's Lookout but I most do a little more. I don't believe that it is connected to us . there was another Carr family living in that area but I have't found a connection.

Cheers

Cynthia

[Waitabit]

A warm welcome to you Cynthia, looks like you've joined int o busy times with this QLD family.
Have a browse around, you may find a hint to go searching for more rellies. Enjoy.:)

[GeoffD]

Emily LAW's death details gave me her parents' marriage, but no firm matching BMD or Census yet - too many Emily LAW people being born in that part of Essex at about the same time. And definitely no passenger list as yet.

That'll be a next step.


Took a while, but that step has been taken. Am sorting out the LAW families from Langley/Clavering, Essex, along with the connected KING, PIGGOTT and DODKIN mobs. So many of them seemed to folow a sister or brother or cousin to New South Wales. Makes you wonder what was going on in rural Essex back in the 1850s to initiate so much emigration.

[JohnC]

Hi, GeoffD and other cousins! The only blogger I think I already know is Cynthia. I am a grandson of John Carr (1852-1916) and a g-grandson of William and Mary. I've only just discovered your blogs and would like to get in touch. I'm 72 and live in Keperra.

JohnC

[GeoffD]

Hello Cousin John! I have sent you a Private Message.