Round the World and Back Again

[Mary Young]

I'm interested in a family, living in Edinburgh, Scotland 1881. Their life looks fascinating, I'd appreciate advice for on-line sources of information. I suspect John emigrated as a child with his parents, Neil Munro & Ann McDonald
1881 - 2 Elliot Street, South Leith, Edinburgh.
JOHN MUNRO, head, 48, born Tongue, Sutherland, Scotland.
(Farrier Major Late Army Service Copl [sic] Chelsea Pensioner & Blacksmith)
CHARLOTTE MUNRO, wife, 45, Paris France, British Subject
EMILY J. MUNRO, daur, 16, Auckland, New Zealand
ALEXANDER J. MUNRO, son, Woolwich, Kent, England
JOHN T. MUNRO, son, 3, Edinburgh, Scotland.
ANNIE MUNRO, mother, widow, Durness, Sutherland, Scotland.
Grateful for any help or advice :)

[Pam Downes]

Hi Mary,

Living where you do, you should know more about the Scottish genealogy websites than me, but I know that you can access the Scottish BMD online, so I'd try to get John's birth certificate as even the English birth certificate gives the mother's maiden name, and you may get even more info from the Scottish one.
However, if your line of descent is from one of the other children, you should try to obtain their birth certificate in case Charlotte is John's second wife.
You don't quote an age for Alexander, but I tried FreeBMD for Mar 1865 to Dec 1877 inclusive and there's an Alexander Munro registered in Greenwich registration district March 1874 quarter. Woolwich Dockyard and Woolwich Arsenal are both in Greenwich RD.
Once you have a maiden name for Charlotte then you can look for a marriage.
I believe you have to go to Kew to access Army records (cue Geoffers :) , though I'm sure that he's already posted the info on at least one thread, so if you searched for 'army records' on the forums you'd find it), but if John was in the army when Emily was born her birth might be in the Chaplains' Returns or another of the army sections of the GRO. Searchable online (pay-to-view)
http://www.1837online.com/Trace2web/
click resources and guidance in green banner across the top, then select overseas records. (Have just seen there's info about Scottish civil registration too.)
Some, if not all, of the Scottish census are also online.
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/
seems to be the site for everything Scottish.

Pam Downes

[Mary Young]

Dear Pam
Thanks for your kind and detailed reply. I'm not descended from anyone in this family, but very interested, as they were near neighbours of our forebears in a tiny place on the north coast of Scotland. I had wondered whether John's travels might throw light on whether he started his adult life in NZ, ie whether his father had emigrated with wife and children, 1841-1851.
Confess I had entirely forgotten about freebmd, as I rarely need to consult English records. Most people leaving my area of interest tended to embark for the colonies. If they travelled south, it was usually to the Scottish cities - Edinburgh, Glasgow and Aberdeen.
The son, Alexander was 9 in 1881, so the date is a bit out for the Woolwich birth you found, but of course the census is prone to error.
As I said at the top of my posting, I already know John's parents' names, which were transcribed from the original Old Parish Records. A "certificate" is not available - John was born in 1832, statutory registration did not start until 1855.
I've had a (rather amateurish) scout round passenger ship listings for NZ, Canada etc. without finding John's parents, so perhaps they never got further than Edinburgh - while John took off around the world and back again:)
Next step, I think I will follow your advice and check the 1891 and 1901 censuses.
Kind regards,

[Pam Downes]

Like you, Mary, I think I'd be intrigued by this family as John senior got around. Probably due in some part to the Highland Clearances. Beautiful countryside around Tongue with the distinctive Ben Loyal nearby, but certainly a harsh environment in which to try to make a living.
Presumably you've looked for John's siblings in Tongue PRs to see how long the family were there, and have you looked on the 1841/1851 census to see if they were still in Tongue? (I don't know how easy it is to access Scottish census/indexes.)
And when I said about getting the birth certificate for John I meant John junior aged 3 on the 1881 census. (I forgot that the father was John too.) And then obviously that would give you Charlotte's maiden name to enable you to look for her marriage to John senior.
By the way, I did a search for 'army records' on the forums and from what I can remember the records Geoffers was talking about end in something like 1828.
As usual I've got sidetracked in my thoughts so have been gaily skipping round Sutherland via Genuki and GenWeb, and have found the Sutherland surname list. And guess what - there are TWO people interested in Munro, Tongue 1800+.
http://members.aol.com/sloinne/Sutherland/listMtoZ.htm
The drawback is that there's no way of knowing how old the email addies are.
But there's loads more links for mailing lists etc
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/sct/SUT/index.html

http://members.aol.com/obrienbarb/Scot/SuthGenWeb.htm
Couldn't remember how I got to Genuki but have remembered that I was thinking of possible regiments John senior could have joined and immediately thought of the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders but they weren't formed until 1881. So then I thought (grasshopper mind doesn't begin to describe me :D ) "but Argyll's nowhere near Sutherland", so I had to look at a map, hence the Genuki bit. The regiment website I was looking at was
http://www.regiments.org/
and specifically
http://www.regiments.org/regiments/uk/lists/mvcxsco.htm
It often tells you where the regiments were based though I can't think of a reason why the British army would have to go to New Zealand - or they were fighting the Maoris c1850 -1870? Though why would an army wife be out in NZ? So therefore is Emily the daughter of a first marriage, possibly out in NZ?
For goodness sake, keep me informed of what you find out - I'm totally hooked on these people now!!!!

Pam Downes

[Mary Young]

Hi, Pam
Well you put me to shame :) You have visited so many sites for me. I have bookmarked them all, and am working my way through them.
Sorry I misunderstood your ref. to birth for John. Yes, I will lookup Scottish BMD for both Johns the next time I'm in the Record Office.
I have set my face against paying on-line at scotlandspeople, it is so addictive. I was shocked at the end of last year to see how much I'd spent, ridiculous when I am on the doorstep and can pay by the day.
I was corresponding only last week with one of the email addresses you found, and these aren't her people. Will drop a line to the other one.
Here is more news - yesterday I found John Sr's sister Emily in the 1881, living in Fife. Which strengthens the feeling that the ertire family moved to southern Scotland after 1841.
Well, Pam, I guess you and I are the same, we get sidetracked, going down these fascinating byways. Will let you know if I find anything more.
Kindest regards

[Pam Downes]

Hi Mary,

It's called serendipity :D
I'm a member of the SoG, and one of the perks is that I get access to BritishOrigins (ex-EnglishOrigins). First time I'd used the new system tonight and I noticed that it said '1871 census', though the entries were mainly for the London area. So then I thought 'ah I know who to look for' but I played sneaky and entered New Zealand as the birthplace - and BINGO.
RG10/786 folio 85 page 3
Army Service Corps Barracks & Royal Military Acadeny Woolwich
John MUNRO, head, m, 38, Staff Sgt A.S.C., Scotland
Charlotte C. , wife, 35, soldier's wife, France British subject
Emily, daughter, 6, scholar, New Zealand

BUT there's more......
I always check for strays for 'my' counties on any census sheets that I look at, and further down this particular sheet I saw 'New Zealand' again. The entry is for Ellen Tynan, soldier's daughter, aged 3. She has two younger sisters - Mary, aged 2, and Honora aged 6 months, both born in Woolwich.
So, proof that the soldiers' wives went with them to NZ, plus an approximate date for their return to the UK. (And almost certain proof that Charlotte was Emily's mother.)
Then off to the Regiments.org website where I searched for 'Army Service Corps' and got
http://regiments.org/regiments/uk/corps/RASC.htm
scrolling down and clicking on various bits I ended up with
http://www.army-rlc.co.uk/Museum/index.html
finally I clicked on 'archives and research'. They mention Royal Wagon Train which is mentioned earlier in the list of names of the (R.) A.S.C. so the museum might be able to tell you how long John was in NZ and also why.

Definitely time for a |woohoo|

Pam Downes

[Mary Young]

Definitely time for a |woohoo|
Pam Downes And time for a |bowdown| from me!
What treasure you've uncovered! I'm so grateful for your expertise and kindness.
Spent some time already, looking at those military websites, lovely old pictures etc. (distracting!) and found Ancestry of the Royal Logistics Corps, http://www.rlc-conductor.info/History.htm. The Royal Wagon Train was disbanded/transmogrified in 1833. It was ever thus - next year (2005) our Scottish regiments will virtually disappear.
I'll drop the Museum a line sometime, they may know where/when John enlisted..