register question

[koko3]

If the records only go back to a certain time, say a parish church, where would they have gone prior to register the births

[Ed McKie]

If the records only go back to a certain time, say a parish church, where would they have gone prior to register the births

Koko- I think you will need to be a little more precise in your question.
I am guessing that you have a church in mind, and whereever it is that you have looked have indicated that the registers only start at a given year, which is after the period you are interested ion ?

There may be several reasons for this.

For instance the parish could have been created from the split up of a larger parish- this occurred quite often in the larger cities.

If your source is the LDS libarary catalogue- there may me earlier registers which have not been filmed.

so just two possibilities, out of a plethora !! if you give us the name of the church you have in mind- I am sure that someone will be able to point you in the right direction.

Cheers..Ed

[Pam Downes]

Hi Koko,
I know that you're a newbie to the forum, and you may well be new to genealogy.
Something that trips up even older hands like me if I'm not very careful is the use of birth for baptism. (And similarly, death for burial.)
Civil registration of births marriages and deaths began in England and Wales on July 1st 1837. Scotland I believe was 1855, and Ireland 1864.
Baptisms marriages and burials have been recorded in church (parish) registers since about 1550, or from when the church was built if it was after that date, but not all registers have survived/are legible/are fit to be copied onto fiche or film. Most but not all of the early parish registers are deposited in county record offices, but the date of the last register deposited can vary from 1800 to 2000, depending on how large the parish is and therefore how full the registers are, as well as how cooperative the present vicar is to hand over the registers.
Pre-1837 the information in parish registers is quite limited. Depending purely on the vicar the birth date or age of the person may be given as well as the baptismal date. But as Ed says, if you tell us the name of the place/parishand the years in which you're interested, we might be able to give you more precise details of how to find out the information you require.
Pam

[Jan1954]

Hi Koko,

Just to add to what Pam has said; if the parish record is not deposited at the County Reords Office, some dates may be obtained from Bishop's Transcripts, which may well have been deposited. Especially in the more rural areas, there are some parish record books still in use from the early 19th century.

Every so often (either once a quarter or once a year, depending upon how busy the church was), the parish record was copied out and this copy was sent to the Bishop of the Diocese. I have recently seen some beautiful copies at the Essex RO, where the parish register is still in use but the BTs were copied out and personal notes added by the person who did this - usually the parish clerk.

So, where are we talking about and when?

[koko3]

hi guys

thank you so much for your answers and very quick it is very much appreciated.

the area of concern is hempstead essex, very rural town in the 1700's i would of thought, the parish that has got me to where i am now is st andrews parish, i have a list of baptisms, births and buriels for the named concerned which is buttle/buttal/buttell, i also have all known census listings from 1841 - 1901 with buttles only, however, i know there is more buttles there in these times than i do have listed. I went to our local family history centre and had them order a copy of the earliest parish register i could find, which has taken me to john buttle who married dorothy hockley March 15, 1785.

The are few other buttles that i have in the written lists and searching www.familyserch.org, but i am unable to connect them with each other as in johns sister or cousins/uncles or cousins or even 2 of them are very close to being his father.

let me know if you need more info or where i can start searching again

[Jan1954]

the area of concern is hempstead essex, very rural town in the 1700's i would of thought,

'Tis not a town but a very small village and is still very rural. Last time I went through it, I think I just saw a shop and a pub with a string of cottages.

I pop over to the Essex Records Office from time to time. Buttle and it's variations has now been added to my look-up list and I'll dive into the Hempstead PRs next time I'm out there - not sure when that will be, though.

[Peter Goodey]

The mormons have filmed the original prs from the start ie baptisms 1693, marriages 1665 and burials 1664

This is FHL BRITISH Film 1472402. Is this what you've been looking at?

[Pam Downes]

hi guys

thank you so much for your answers and very quick it is very much appreciated.

the area of concern is hempstead essex, very rural town in the 1700's i would of thought, the parish that has got me to where i am now is st andrews parish, i have a list of baptisms, births and buriels for the named concerned which is buttle/buttal/buttell, i also have all known census listings from 1841 - 1901 with buttles only, however, i know there is more buttles there in these times than i do have listed. I went to our local family history centre and had them order a copy of the earliest parish register i could find, which has taken me to john buttle who married dorothy hockley March 15, 1785.

The are few other buttles that i have in the written lists and searching www.familyserch.org (http://www.familyserch.org), but i am unable to connect them with each other as in johns sister or cousins/uncles or cousins or even 2 of them are very close to being his father.

let me know if you need more info or where i can start searching again
Hi Koko,
The way I read this message is that
1. You've got all the Buttles and variations from the census, and from the Hempstead parish register from 1785 and as far forward to the present day as you need.
2. You also have some other Buttles that appear in the parish register but which at the moment you can't connect to your family.
3. Your main search is for John's father.
Not too sure about
4. You have some Buttles etc on the census that say they were born in Hempstead but which you can't find in the registers.
5. You have extracted all the Buttles etc in the parish register from a certain date, e.g. 1700. (Want to save Jan the possibility of duplicating what you've already done. :) )
Can you confirm which statements are correct?
Pam

[koko3]

yes, you are very close

sorry or all the confusion,yes my main find would be johns father

From the parish records i have, john buttle and dorothy hockley married by bans 15/3/1785. there son william b. 1786 he married lydia (halls) on April 23, 1809, he is my main line descendant.

what is the loose names i can not connect from the parish records are:

john buttell and elizabeth bird by banns 30/11 7/12 & 14/12 1755

william buttel of this parish widower and martha robinson of this parish singlewoman married in this church by licence 9/10/1778

samuel basham from the parish of ashdon in the county of essex and mary buttle of this parish(hempstead) married in this church (st andrews) by banns 17/8/63

also on the familysearch site i have a william buttle and sarah ? married at st andrews in 1751, which i would assume this was the william aboves first wife, it also states that he had a son named william which could be john's brother or cousin

i hope this helps clear it up, i would be very thankfull for your help on the search.






Hi Koko,
The way I read this message is that
1. You've got all the Buttles and variations from the census, and from the Hempstead parish register from 1785 and as far forward to the present day as you need.
2. You also have some other Buttles that appear in the parish register but which at the moment you can't connect to your family.
3. Your main search is for John's father.
Not too sure about
4. You have some Buttles etc on the census that say they were born in Hempstead but which you can't find in the registers.
5. You have extracted all the Buttles etc in the parish register from a certain date, e.g. 1700. (Want to save Jan the possibility of duplicating what you've already done. :) )
Can you confirm which statements are correct?
Pam

[Alan Welsford]

Hi Koko,

I've just taken a look at the IGI (LDS Familysearch) site, for BUTTLE (and variants) in Hempstead, Essex.

Looking just at William BUTTLE (and variant) entries, everything there seems to be user submitted entries from members of the LDS Church.

I only looked quickly, but failed to turn up any William BUTTLE data for Hempstead that actually names its source an an extract from the Hempstead Parish Registers.

I may be telling you what you are already well aware of, but user submitted data undergoes no quality control checks before being loaded in the IGI, and usually gives you no idea of the reliability or otherwise of the source. You could probably get "Micky Mouse" on the IGI as user submitted data.

A lot of it does stand close scrutiny, but probably the higher percentage can be an act of at leat partial fantasy.

You should not rely on LDS "user submitted" data in your tree, unless you have verified it from the original source. At best it is a finding aid, to point you in a promising direction.

I also notice you had a marriage listed with 3 banns dates. Note that finding an entry in a banns register alone, (as opposed to a marriage register), does not guarantee that the marriage occurred - it was notification of intent to marry, and something could theoretically have stopped it happening. You always need to see the actual marriage, (which may be in a different parish for where you have found the banns - e.g. banns would be read in the grooms 'home' parish, for a marriage in the bride's 'home' parish).

I hope I've not bored you with what you already know.

Best wishes,

Alan

[Jan1954]

Castle Camps and Horseheath, whilst both being in Cambridgeshire, are in fact only about 3 and 6 miles up the road respectively from Hempstead.

I had a rummage in the PR transcripts that I have and found the following:

All Saints Church, Castle Camps

Banns:
Dec 28 1760 PRENTICE Thomas & BUTTAL Elizabeth single persons, both of the parish

Marriages:
Oct 2 1752 GRAY William & BUTTLE Laetitia botp

Sep 25 1758 BUTTAL Nathaniel (x) otp widr & MISEN Mary (x) otp wid
wits: James LINARD Charles BROWN

Feb 2 1761 CARLTON James (x) otp bac & BUTTAL Mary (x) otp sp
wits: Charles BROWN George COLE (x)


Burials:
Jan 1 1729 BUTTELL Price infant
May 19 1731 BUTTELL Wm farmer
Jun 10 1743 BUTTELL Nathaniel
Nov 7 1762 BUTTALL Susanna wid
Apr 23 1765 BUTTAL Mary wife of Nathanael
May 2 1784 BUTTLE Mary
Jul 22 1798 BUTTAL Nathaniel adult


Baptisms:
Apr 23 1715 BUTTELL Richd son of Nathanael & Mary
Mar 6 1725 BUTTAL Wm son of Wm & Elisabeth


All Saints Church, Horseheath

Burials:
Aug 28 1778 BUTTLE Susannah dau of Thos & Mary
Jul 24 1803 BUTTLE Ealinor wife of Thomas lab 65
Sep 20 1818 BUTTLE Thomas of Wenden 82

Marriage:

Oct 13 1803 BROWN Robt (x) of West Wickham & BUTTLE Susanna (x) otp
wits: Thos BUTTLE (x) Jonathan ADKINS (clerk)

It will probably add to the confusion, but you never know...

[koko3]

hi alan

thank you for your reply, you have made me very aware of some important facts i did not no or consider. i will remember these points, as to start collecting the doc ref. of my findings.

Yes, a lot of it is user entered, but, i have found that has been a step in the right direction in some cases as you mentioned, as it can be very expensive constructing your family tree from such a distance and i have been able order the correct films or transcripts i have needed.

Once again thank you very much for being so helpfull

regards tania ;)



Hi Koko,

I've just taken a look at the IGI (LDS Familysearch) site, for BUTTLE (and variants) in Hempstead, Essex.

Looking just at William BUTTLE (and variant) entries, everything there seems to be user submitted entries from members of the LDS Church.

I only looked quickly, but failed to turn up any William BUTTLE data for Hempstead that actually names its source an an extract from the Hempstead Parish Registers.

I may be telling you what you are already well aware of, but user submitted data undergoes no quality control checks before being loaded in the IGI, and usually gives you no idea of the reliability or otherwise of the source. You could probably get "Micky Mouse" on the IGI as user submitted data.

A lot of it does stand close scrutiny, but probably the higher percentage can be an act of at leat partial fantasy.

You should not rely on LDS "user submitted" data in your tree, unless you have verified it from the original source. At best it is a finding aid, to point you in a promising direction.

I also notice you had a marriage listed with 3 banns dates. Note that finding an entry in a banns register alone, (as opposed to a marriage register), does not guarantee that the marriage occurred - it was notification of intent to marry, and something could theoretically have stopped it happening. You always need to see the actual marriage, (which may be in a different parish for where you have found the banns - e.g. banns would be read in the grooms 'home' parish, for a marriage in the bride's 'home' parish).

I hope I've not bored you with what you already know.

Best wishes,

Alan

[koko3]

hi

I have had a quick look through the amount of buttles i have and the ones you listed seem to be from the lindsal line (buttle timbers) thats another line i have seems to end at the same point i do in hempstead, there are 4 other lines i have that seem to all go to very near the era, without connecting. lindsell, grays thurrock and yorkshire, some of these lines do go alot further back like yorkshire, however, they don't seem to connect in our direction lol.

Though i will go through and do a thorough search, you may have the connections there for us, that would be fantastic.

regrads tania

Castle Camps and Horseheath, whilst both being in Cambridgeshire, are in fact only about 3 and 6 miles up the road respectively from Hempstead.

I had a rummage in the PR transcripts that I have and found the following:

All Saints Church, Castle Camps

Banns:
Dec 28 1760 PRENTICE Thomas & BUTTAL Elizabeth single persons, both of the parish

Marriages:
Oct 2 1752 GRAY William & BUTTLE Laetitia botp

Sep 25 1758 BUTTAL Nathaniel (x) otp widr & MISEN Mary (x) otp wid
wits: James LINARD Charles BROWN

Feb 2 1761 CARLTON James (x) otp bac & BUTTAL Mary (x) otp sp
wits: Charles BROWN George COLE (x)


Burials:
Jan 1 1729 BUTTELL Price infant
May 19 1731 BUTTELL Wm farmer
Jun 10 1743 BUTTELL Nathaniel
Nov 7 1762 BUTTALL Susanna wid
Apr 23 1765 BUTTAL Mary wife of Nathanael
May 2 1784 BUTTLE Mary
Jul 22 1798 BUTTAL Nathaniel adult


Baptisms:
Apr 23 1715 BUTTELL Richd son of Nathanael & Mary
Mar 6 1725 BUTTAL Wm son of Wm & Elisabeth


All Saints Church, Horseheath

Burials:
Aug 28 1778 BUTTLE Susannah dau of Thos & Mary
Jul 24 1803 BUTTLE Ealinor wife of Thomas lab 65
Sep 20 1818 BUTTLE Thomas of Wenden 82

Marriage:

Oct 13 1803 BROWN Robt (x) of West Wickham & BUTTLE Susanna (x) otp
wits: Thos BUTTLE (x) Jonathan ADKINS (clerk)

It will probably add to the confusion, but you never know...

[koko3]

Hi Jan

I had agoing through yesterday and no connection as yet as these dates are a little earlier than i have, where they are close, the names are not the sale, the same also occurs with lindsell line.

I will keep what you jave sent me and hopefully soon i can add a little bit more for you or even connect them.

regards tania

Castle Camps and Horseheath, whilst both being in Cambridgeshire, are in fact only about 3 and 6 miles up the road respectively from Hempstead.

I had a rummage in the PR transcripts that I have and found the following:

All Saints Church, Castle Camps

Banns:
Dec 28 1760 PRENTICE Thomas & BUTTAL Elizabeth single persons, both of the parish

Marriages:
Oct 2 1752 GRAY William & BUTTLE Laetitia botp

Sep 25 1758 BUTTAL Nathaniel (x) otp widr & MISEN Mary (x) otp wid
wits: James LINARD Charles BROWN

Feb 2 1761 CARLTON James (x) otp bac & BUTTAL Mary (x) otp sp
wits: Charles BROWN George COLE (x)


Burials:
Jan 1 1729 BUTTELL Price infant
May 19 1731 BUTTELL Wm farmer
Jun 10 1743 BUTTELL Nathaniel
Nov 7 1762 BUTTALL Susanna wid
Apr 23 1765 BUTTAL Mary wife of Nathanael
May 2 1784 BUTTLE Mary
Jul 22 1798 BUTTAL Nathaniel adult


Baptisms:
Apr 23 1715 BUTTELL Richd son of Nathanael & Mary
Mar 6 1725 BUTTAL Wm son of Wm & Elisabeth


All Saints Church, Horseheath

Burials:
Aug 28 1778 BUTTLE Susannah dau of Thos & Mary
Jul 24 1803 BUTTLE Ealinor wife of Thomas lab 65
Sep 20 1818 BUTTLE Thomas of Wenden 82

Marriage:

Oct 13 1803 BROWN Robt (x) of West Wickham & BUTTLE Susanna (x) otp
wits: Thos BUTTLE (x) Jonathan ADKINS (clerk)

It will probably add to the confusion, but you never know...