CARTER/THOMAS/MC DOWALL

[jmtalmadge]

I am located in the USA. I have been attempting to research my CARTER/THOMAS antecedents for some time. 5 years ago I was able to obtain marriage certificates from England which reflected some conflicting "handed down" family information. Joseph Thomas and Mary Ann McDowall of Liverpool were my great grandparents. They were married in Liverpool in 1860. Joseph was a soldier. Mary Ann was a survivor of the tragic wreck of the Anglo Saxon off the coast of NewFoundland on her way to meet Joseph in Montreal, Quebec in 1864. At one time they lived in Seargents Row in Welshpool, Wales. A son, my grandfather, Alfred Ernest Thomas was born and subsequently married Sarah Carter on January 1, 1901 in Liverpool. He was 27 and she was 19 at the time of their marriage. My grandmother lived on Roscoe Lane and my grandfauther lived on Oldham St. I understand the Thomas family had an additional home in Blackpool at one time.

My family had always understood that my grandmothers father was a surgeon, a William Carter. Supposedly, my grandmother assisted her father in his practice and my grandfather met her while she cared for his dying mother. My grandmothers natural mother died when she was young and her father remarried a woman who was unkind to my grandmother and an alcoholic.

You can imagine my surprise when I received the marriage certificate, and it stated the "Rank or Profession" of my gr. grandfather was butler! Also, his name was Thomas not William. The other interesting legend is that my grandmother was a Jew. She and my grandfather were, however, married in a Protestant church as evidenced on the marriage certificate. My grandparents sailed to Canada early on in their marriage, settling in Edmonton, Alberta. The story circulated that my grandfathers family was very upset over their son marrying a Jewess and more or less cut off family ties. My grandfather Carter was the only relative that saw them sail off to Canada. The occupation of my grandfather Thomas was that of engineer according to my fathers Canadian birth certificate. His occupation at the time of marriage was "gasmaker" I am not sure what that is/was. I also understood that my oldest deceased uncle William was named after my grandmother Sarah's father.

It would be very helpful if I could obtain the following information either through this thread or direction as to where I might seek some of these answers:

The maiden name of my grandmother Sarah Carter's natural mother.

Was William Carter a brother or cousin of Thomas?

Was Mary Ann McDowall of Irish or Scottish descent?

Thank you so very much for any help.

J. M. Talmadge

[Jan1954]

Hello jmtalmadge |wave| and welcome to Brit-Gen

What an interesting background to work from - even if it does throw up lots of questions!

Please have a look round the boards and post your queries on the appropriate ones. I'm sure someone out there will be able to help.

Enjoy yourself,

[Geoffers]

Welcome to the British-Genealogy forums.

To try and help point you in the right direction, and also as a check list.........

Joseph Thomas and Mary Ann McDowall were married in Liverpool in 1860.

Do you have their marriage certificate, which will will give their respective fathers' name and occupations, names of witnesses and other useful detail. How old were they when they married?

Have you located this couple in the 1861 census?

Joseph was a soldier.

Do you have his service record? Was he an officer, or other rank?

If you do not have his service record, do you know by what date he had left the army? Do you know in which regiment he served?

A son, my grandfather, Alfred Ernest Thomas was born and subsequently married Sarah Carter on January 1, 1901 in Liverpool. He was 27 and she was 19 at the time of their marriage.

Do you have their birth certificates? Have you found them in the 1901 census?

My family had always understood that my grandmothers father

Presumably the father of Sarah CARTER?

The other interesting legend is that my grandmother was a Jew. She and my grandfather were, however, married in a Protestant church as evidenced on the marriage certificate.

She could still hve been born to a Jewish family and just not followed the religion.

My grandfather Carter was the only relative that saw them sail off to Canada.

Have you found them in the Board of Trade (BT) passenger lists?

His occupation at the time of marriage was "gasmaker" I am not sure what that is/was.

Production of gas for domestic lighting was an industrial process in which quite a few people were employed.

I also understood that my oldest deceased uncle William was named after my grandmother Sarah's father.

Regarding the dad being thought to be William and the certificate giving his name as Thomas.......he could of course have been 'William Thomas' and just used one name, or the other at different times of his life.

The maiden name of my grandmother Sarah Carter's natural mother.

As mentioned above, her birth certificate should help, but to narrow things down, we'll need her age at marriage and where she was born (given in a census return).

Was William Carter a brother or cousin of Thomas?

Again, have you found her dad in a census return?

Was Mary Ann McDowall of Irish or Scottish descent?

That's something to work at, one step at a time........

[Geoffers]

part 2 (read part 1, above first)

Assuming this Mary Ann THOMAS in the 1861 census.....

RG9/274 f44 p20 sch.126
5, Queens Street, Tower Hamlets, St.Botolph without Aldgate, London
Mary Ann THOMAS, wf, mar, 22, Soldiers wife, bn Liverpool, Lancashire
(she looks to be living in a single room)

I wonder if this is her in 1881?

RG11/3649 f51p27
18, Maynard Street, Toxteth Park, Liverpool, Lancashire
Thomas JONES, hd, mar, 42, labourer, bn Montgomery
Mary A JONES, wf, mar, 41, bn Liverpool
Joseph THOMAS, step-son, 13, app, bn Welshpool, Montgomeryshire
Alfred THOMAS, step-son, 7, scholar, bn Welshpool
William THOMAS, step-son, 4, bn Welshpool
Charlotte E JONES, daur, 1, bn Liverpool
Owen JONES, lodger, unm, 38, plasterer, bn Llandudno, Caernarvonshire
Augustin Mooney, lodger, mar, 38, plasterer, bn Galway, Ireland

In which case this looks to be them in 1891

RG12/2915 f86 p34
21, Heath Street, Liverpool (dwelling with 5 rooms or more)
Mary A THOMAS, hd, wid, 53, maid of all work, bn Liverpool
Joseph THOMAs, son, unm, 23, carriage cleaner, L+NW Railway, bn Welshpool
Alfred THOMAS, son, unm, 17, storekeeper, bn Welshpool, Nth Wales
William THOMAS, son, unm, 14, clerk, bn Welshpool, Nth Wales
Charlotte E THOMAS, daur, 11, scholar, bn Liverpool
John R WILLIAMS son-in-law, mar, 27, hotel porter, bn Bangor, Wales
Mary A WLLIAMS, daur, mar, 25, bn Welshpool, Nth Wales
John J WILLIAMS, grandson, 6mth, bn Liverpool, Lancs
+ 2 lodgers recorded.

So it looks like Wary Ann could have worked her way through two husbands.

This entry in the GRO index may be Joseph's death:

Jun qtr 1877
THOMAS, Joseph, aged 46,
Forden district
Vol. 1b page 164
(Forden covers Welshpool)

She may have remarried in 1879, see GRO index:

Sep qtr 1879
THOMAS, Mary Ann
Forden
vol.11b page 275

There is a correspondng entry for John THOMAS

All this mention of the GRO and certificates and you may not be familair with our system. The GRO stand for General Register Office and produces an index of all births, marriages and deaths - this dates back to 1837. It is possible to saerch for and order copies of certificates which give you information to help trace your family history. Please ask if the system confuses you and if you are not sure how to order copies of certificates.

[jmtalmadge]

My, what a wonderful, swift response! I don't know if this helps, but my grandfather Thomas had two sisters, Anne (or Anna) and Molly. Molly migrated to the U.S. and never married and lived to be or near 90. Aunt Annie married a Williams. Mary Ann's father was a "scale beam maker" by trade. Alfred E. Thomas's father was a shipwright. It appears from the 1860marriage certificate that both the groom & bride resided on Henshaw St. in Liverpool at the time of her marriage. They were married at St Andrews church in Liverpool. The witnesses at the marriage of Alfred & Sarah were John Alfred Morgan and Jane Carter. Jane, I believe was a sister of Sarah. I thought I had found Sarah on the 1890 census, but the fathers name of William did not jive with dates. Not being familiar with the British customs of the day, it would surprise me if in 1860 Mary Ann would have been living alone at the time of the marriage. I don't know about her family, but the it is my understanding that the Thomas family was fairly affluent. Somewhere in the archives of history this Thomas family was involved in the building of Powess Castle in Wales.

I do not have dates for crossings . I do have a question, however. Is it a common practice for the British military to allow the wives of soldiers to join their husbands in the line of duty if he is less than an officer? There actually is a book written about the shipwreck "The tragic wreck of the Anglo Saxon" My gr. gr. grandmother was miraculously saved by a ship crewman. This is not just hearsay, I actually have a copy of a very large official commendation to the gentleman that "wrapped her in his coat and threw her into the lifeboat below". What a boat ride that must have been!

Thank you for your help. It is greatly appreciated. Being on this side of the "pond" impedes searching.

J.M. Talmadge

[Geoffers]

Molly migrated to the U.S. and never married and lived to be or near 90.

To give us something to work on, can you estimate when she was born?

Aunt Annie married a Williams.

Sadly, just about everyone in Wales is related to a WILLIAMS, JONES, EVANS and a few other surnames.

Alfred E. Thomas's father was a shipwright. It appears from the 1860marriage certificate that both the groom & bride resided on Henshaw St. in Liverpool at the time of her marriage.

There are several bits of information in the marriage certificate that may help to point you in the right driection; would you mind copying them into this thread?

We need

Groom and Bride - Name, age, marital state, occupation, father's name and occupation.

Have alook at my first reply - do you have any of the birth certificates mentioned? If you are not sure how to look for them and obtain copies, please ask.

Not being familiar with the British customs of the day, it would surprise me if in 1860 Mary Ann would have been living alone at the time of the marriage.

It would not surprise me.

Somewhere in the archives of history this Thomas family was involved in the building of Powess Castle in Wales.

In your shoes I wouldn't take that too literally. I would not question that soemwhere along the line, one of your ancestors was involved in the building of a castle - it took a lot or labouring effort and a lot of manpower.

I do have a question, however. Is it a common practice for the British military to allow the wives of soldiers to join their husbands in the line of duty if he is less than an officer?

It frequently happened.

[jmtalmadge]

I believe my grandmother, Sarah Carter, was born December 15, 1881. I do not have an actual birth certificate. This date is from the funeral brochure at her funeral. I am not terribly proficient at e-mailing scanned material, but perhaps I can seek out some help to do so.

Joanne

[Geoffers]

Finding a birth certificate for Sarah CARTER may present some difficulties owing to the fact that the names occur quite frequently - so -

Can you confirm that you have the marriage certificate for Sarah CARTER?

Also that this records:

Sarah CARTER, 19, single, daughter of Thomas CARTER, Butler?

If so, and taking that a witness at the marriage was Jane CARTER, this looks a likely match for Sarah in the 1891 census:

RG12/2990 f17 p28 sch.165
3, Gladstone Road, West Derby, Liverpool
Thomas CARTER, hd, mar, 35, Coachman, bn Somerset
Maria CARTER, wf, mar, 30, bn Wigan, Lancashire
William CARTER, son, 13, scholar, bn Edge Hill, Lancs
Jane CARTER, daur, 11, scholar, bn Toxteth Park, Lancs
Sarah CARTER, daur, 9, scholar, bn Edge Hill, Lancs
Hilda CARTER, daur, 2, bn Edge Hill, Lancs
Georgina CARTER, daur, 5mth, bn Wavertree, Lancs

Does the above fit in with the information that you have?

You mentioned that Thomas was married twice, in which case Maria looks to have been the second wife. The 1881 census records:

RG11/3717 f75 p58
8, Laburnum Grove, Wavertree, Liverpool
William CARTER, hd, widr, 58, general labourer, bn Somerset
Thomas CARTER, son, mar, 27, Coachman, bn Somerset
Sarah CARTER, daur-in-law, mar, 27, bn Cheshire
John Wm CARTER, grandson, 3, bn Liverpool
Jane CARTER, grandaur, 1, bn Liverpool

Do double check all these census returns to make sure that I have nt made a mistake in interpretation or transcribed an entry wrongly.

If you are happy that they are correct and they match the infrmation you have, then a search may begin to try and identify the two wives of Thomas.

[Wirral]

The IGI on www.familysearch.org (http://www.familysearch.org) gives a possible Sarah CARTER, christened 12 Feb 1882 at St Mary's, Wavertree, Liverpool, Lancashire, parents Thomas CARTER & Sarah. There is also a marriage for Thomas CARTER & Sarah OWEN in 1870 at the same church. Plus baptisms for Jane bap. 9 Sep 1883 (born 11 May 1883); Thomas bap. 10 Apr 1881; Henry bap 10 Mar 1878; William bap. 22 Feb 1874.

However, this Thomas appears to be a gardener.

There are 2 likely births listed on the GRO index:
Sarah CARTER born March quarter 1882, West Derby registration district, volume 8b page 573
Sarah CARTER born March quarter 1882, West Derby 8b 636

West Derby is one of the Liverpool registration districts. There are no births in the 1881 December quarter (Oct, Nov, Dec) & the parents had 6 weeks to register the birth, so that would fit with the date you have.

My advice would be to get both of the certificates & not to specify the father's name when you place the order. If you don't give exactly what is on the certificate, then it won't be issued. So if you said the father was Thomas William, when it said William Thomas, then you might not get the certificate.
You can order the certificates online from www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates (http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates)

[Geoffers]

There are 2 likely births listed on the GRO index:
Sarah CARTER born March quarter 1882, West Derby registration district, volume 8b page 573
Sarah CARTER born March quarter 1882, West Derby 8b 636
My advice would be to get both of the certificates & not to specify the father's name when you place the order.

IF jmtalmadge can confirm what has been found in census returns as being the correct family - I would be inclined to go a slightly different route.

Sarah CARTER is quite a common name, I note that three Sarah CARTERs births were registered in W.Derby in March 1882; and two more in Toxteth in Jun 1882.

Instead, I'd go for entries in the GRO index which seem to provide a better chance of hitting the right family - namely:

1880 March
Jane CARTER
W.Derby
vol 8b page 251

and

1891 June
Georgina CARTER
W.Derby
vol 8b page 348

(do double check the references)

The entry for Jane should include Sarah's (first wife) maiden name

I think the entry for Georgina will probably provide Maria's (second wife)maiden name. This is because from the census, Sarah has an estimated year of birth of 1854; and the GRO death index has an entry:

1886 March
Sarah CARTER, aged 31
W.Derby
vol 8b page 483

As a matter of really pure speculation, I noticed that the index records the death of a Margaret CARTER, aged 0 - also in 1886, West Derby and wondered is Sarah's death may possibly have been connected to giving birth??? The only way to find out is to purchase the relevant certificates - I'm very good at spending other people's money!

Again, if this is all the correct family, then I think the CARTERs can be found in the 1861 census in Shepton Mallet, Somerset and in 1871 in Wavertree.

[jmtalmadge]

I do have in hand the marriage certificates of both Sarah Carter & Alfred Ernest Thomas and the marriage certicate for Mary Ann McDowall and and my gr. gr. grandfather Thomas. McDowall/Thomas married in the "Church of St. Andrews" not St. Andrews church. There are pictures of this church on line and it appears to be closed. I did a little research and found that the Church of St. Andrews was located very close to the streets of where both of these sets of couples were living at the time of their marriages. The "Church of St. Andrews" was established well before either of these marriages, and this particular church was established and attended by mostly Scots who had migrated from Scotland.

Some years ago, I had contacted a distant cousin who had attempted researching Sarah Carter's birth, had hit brick walls and never did find records. Diana actually traveled to Welshpool, contacted Thomas's there who are remotely related and she is the source of info regarding Sergeants Row and the castle building involvement. Is it possible that this Carter family WAS Jewish and had migrated from Poland or somewhere. When I started researching history, I was amazed at the Jewish migration to Liverpool around the mid 1900's. I did find a Max Carter who was Jewish and in Liverpool in the early 1800's.

Again, thank you for your efforts.

Joanne

[jmtalmadge]

This evening, I called the distant cousin I referenced in an earlier post.....she clarified a couple of things. Sarah Carter's mothers name was Elizabeth. As far as she is concerned, Jane Carter was not a sister, even though she was a witness at the wedding of Alfred Ernest and Sarah. Sarah was the youngest child by her natural mother. Sarah had an older sister by the name of Anna Elizabeth and two older brothers whose names were John William and Joseph. Joseph was a widower at a young age, losing his wife at age 22 yrs. He was so disrought, he went to the Isle of Man (or Mann?) and no one heard from him after his loss. Joseph sailed for the U.S. and poor devil sailed and arrived in San Francisco the day the great earthquake struck and was killed!

My cousin found all birth certificates of the Thomas lineage on her visit to Welshpool. She ran out of time in Liverpool, but reconfirmed that tracing Sarach Carter was fruitless.

JM Talmadge

[Geoffers]

I had contacted a distant cousin who had attempted researching Sarah Carter's birth, had hit brick walls and never did find records.

The question then is - what sources did she try and did she apply for any copies of birth certificates?

Diana actually traveled to Welshpool, contacted Thomas's there who are remotely related and she is the source of info regarding Sergeants Row and the castle building involvement.

I really think you should ignore the bit about castle building, even if it is true, it is not relevant to your present lines of research.

Is it possible that this Carter family WAS Jewish and had migrated from Poland or somewhere.

Yes, it's possible, but you are jumping too far ahead at the moment, concentrate on getting the basic connections, first.

This evening, I called the distant cousin I referenced in an earlier post.....she clarified a couple of things. Sarah Carter's mothers name was Elizabeth.

Okedoke - what is the source for this information

As far as she is concerned, Jane Carter was not a sister, even though she was a witness at the wedding of Alfred Ernest and Sarah. Sarah was the youngest child by her natural mother. Sarah had an older sister by the name of Anna Elizabeth and two older brothers whose names were John William and Joseph.

Again, if anyone here is to provide any assistance, some source needs to be provided which can be verified.

Joseph was a widower at a young age, losing his wife at age 22 yrs. He was so disrought, he went to the Isle of Man (or Mann?)

Isle of Man - it's in the Irish Sea.

My cousin found all birth certificates of the Thomas lineage on her visit to Welshpool. She ran out of time in Liverpool, but reconfirmed that tracing Sarach Carter was fruitless.

Searching for Sarah CARTER may be difficult - but what did she try in order to locate her? GRO index, parish registers, census returns?

Where has your cousin located the family in census returns and what are the references?

I do have in hand the marriage certificates of both Sarah Carter & Alfred Ernest Thomas and the marriage certicate for Mary Ann McDowall and and my gr. gr. grandfather Thomas. McDowall/Thomas

To repeat myself, what information is provided in these certificates? In order to assist we need a starting point.

Groom and Bride - name, age, marital state, address, occupation, fathers' names and occupations
Names of witnesses.

What details are there for the families in the 1901 census?