Will proved - why the delay?

[caliope]

Hello everyone,

I've been able to get a copy of a direct ancestor's will. He died in 1847 but the will was not "proved" until 1852. Does anyone have any suggestions as to why his heirs would wait 5 years to execute the will?

Thank you.

[Geoffers]

Any indication in the probate? (This follows the will)

Was it a complicated will?

There may have been problems finding the heir(s)

The will may have been disputed.

There could have been dispute over debts, or bonds

The person may have willed some estate, ownership of which was disputed and had to be established in the courts.

There could be lots of reasons; without more information it is not possible to be definitive as to the reason.

[MythicalMarian]

Caliope (lovely name, by the way, Oh Muse!) - I have a will that was drawn up in 1818, the testator died in 1832, but the will itself (annexed as it happens) was not 'proved' until 1851. I can only think that the testator drew up his will in 1818 when he had some illness or felt he was of 'the right age' (he would have been about 60), put it away somewhere and forgot about it. His family clearly did not discover it until years after his death, by which time, all the money he had, and the modest plot of land he had owned, had all gone, so there was nothing left for his children and grandchildren to inherit! I take it that was the reason for the annexation.

As Geoffers says, it may also have been a disputed or contested will. I have another example from the 17th century (one of my really splendid wills belonging to an old soldier of the civil wars), where the only will we have on record is the contested one, 5 years after his death.

[caliope]

Thank you Geoffers and MythicalMarian for your replies.

My inital immediate thought was that perhaps the will could not be located but it seems that Geoffers' last point may have some relevance. I think that my 4x ggrandfather moved from his childhood home in Somerset to Devon due to some sort of land dispute. The land he left to his daughter in the will was in Somerset so perhaps it was involved in the same legal issue.

My 3rd ggrandmother (the daughter of the writer of the will) had died years before her father passed away in 1847. Her husband was also deceased. I wondered if her father had left anything to his orphaned grandchildren but they weren't mentioned. He left most of his estate to his younger daughter in whose household my 3rd ggrandmother's children are listed as servants in the census! I was a little surprised that no provision had been made for them.

Has anyone else encountered surprises like this in wills they've obtained? there any way I can find out if the will was disputed? I'm not sure where to look.

Thank you again for your help.

[Colin Moretti]

Hello Caliope

If the will was the subject of legal action you may well find reference to it at TNA in the dreaded Court of Chancery, this guide will tell you about the records:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=165

If so you will find reference to it in the catalogue as it seems to be reasonably well indexed for the period you're interested in:
1842-1852 C 14 Modern Series:
Pleadings Searchable online for 1st plaintiff and 1st defendant. To check that a suit is the right one, order up the relevant volume from C 32 . As only first plaintiff and defendant are listed try searching for the names of executors and/or beneficiaries. If it's listed you'll need to go to Kew to see the documents or use their scanning on demand service:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/about-sod.asp

Colin

[Colin Moretti]

I should have added that there may well be lots of documents submitted after the initial plea that are not listed by name in the catalogue, a personal visit or researcher would be needed to find those.

If you've got a case in Chancery the court documents can be a gold-mine of information.

Colin

[Peter Goodey]

there any way I can find out if the will was disputed? I'm not sure where to look.

You don't seem to have specifically stated where the will was proved.

If it was the Prerogative Court of Canterbury (the only probate records deposited at the National Archives), you certainly need to be familiar with this research guide -
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=168

However, there were many other probate courts and if the will comes from one of those, I would advise you to seek the advice of the repository concerned.

You may need to engage a resarcher to pursue this.

[Geoffers]

I think that my 4x ggrandfather moved from his childhood home in Somerset to Devon due to some sort of land dispute. The land he left to his daughter in the will was in Somerset so perhaps it was involved in the same legal issue.

Has anyone else encountered surprises like this in wills they've obtained? there any way I can find out if the will was disputed? I'm not sure where to look.

Wills are often full of surprises and useful information - it's one of the reasons I mention them so often on these forums; they can be a goldmine of information - but equally can throw up perplexing problems.

I would echo the comments made by Colin and Peter, above and the questions asked are important.
Finding a reason through legal documents, especially from Canada, will be very difficult and possibly costly.

You may possibly be able to infer why there was a delay, but this depends to some extent on luck and what is catalogued online. Finding anything will involve a good deal of investigation and piecing together snippets of information.

First, does the probate at the foot of the will, gives any clues as to what happened?

Next, you will need to be able to identify the specific property in Somerset, either from the will, or from private letters or other records in your possession. If you cannot identify the property, then you don't really stand a chance.

Carrying on, how the property was owned, either freehold, copyhold, or leasehold. If the property was copyhold, there may be surviving manorial documents mentioning the admission and any dispute.

Next depends on how well the County Record office has catalogued its holdings and whether they are on line. Does the record office have any holdings concerning the property (you may be able to purchase copies quite cheaply). Is the property mentioned in any notices of sale or lease, or is it in the survey taken for the tithe commutation.

Was the move because the family was bankrupted? Check the London Gazette (http://www.londongazette.co.uk/home.aspx?geotype=London).

The dates you give of 1847 and 1852 are useful - who was occupying the property in the 1841 and 1851 census?

Using all of the above, you may just be able to get an inkling of what happened and piece together a chronology of events.

[oxon57]

First, does the probate at the foot of the will, gives any clues as to what happened?And, second, which version of the probate notes are you looking at? Do you actually have a copy of "the will" or a copy of "the registered will" - the copy written out by a court clerk. I have two cases where items included with the original but not with the court copy were decidedly helpful, so if all else fails, if you only have the court copy, it may be worth investigating the practicality and cost of obtaining a copy of the original.

[susan-w]

Also, it might be worth checking on Google Books (provided their name isn't Smith!), as I've found reference to one of my ancestors in old legal books regarding a disputed will.

Cheers
Sue

[caliope]

Hello all,

I've been so busy at work that I haven't been on my computer in a while so I'm overwhelmed with the information everyone has provided! You've given me loads of leads to follow.

The will was proved in the Archdeaconry Court of Exeter so it looks like I'm out of luck as far as the National Archives are concerned. I will try to search out the names in the will anyway (although some are very common) for any info.

There is no probate info at the end of the will. The first page just states that the executrix of the will (the daughter who got all the land) appeared personally to carry it out. My 4x great grandfather stated that the land was his freehold estate called Meadlands in Ashbrittle Somerset. I thought 'freehold' meant the land was just his for the remainder of his life and didn't realize he could will it to someone.

When I buy another subscription for the censuses, I'll check to see who was living at Meadlands in 1841 (that's a great idea). In 1851, it happened to be the daughter who was willed this property but by 1861 she had probably sold it as she was no longer there.

I think I have a copy of the registered will because there are no signatures on it other than his daughter's on the first page.

I won't be spending loads of money on this issue as I have a lot of other mysteries to solve (!) but will definitely look into a lot of the ideas everyone has put forth.

Thank you all again.

[Peter Goodey]

The will was proved in the Archdeaconry Court of Exeter

I find this a bit puzzling.

You say that you have the will but my understanding is that all probate records relating to the Archdeaconry of Exeter were destroyed during the war.

Perhaps this was a copy already in the family's records? Or is this actually not a will at all but an extract from one of the published indexes? Or is my information simply wrong?

[suedent]

I find this a bit puzzling.

You say that you have the will but my understanding is that all probate records relating to the Archdeaconry of Exeter were destroyed during the war.

Perhaps this was a copy already in the family's records? Or is this actually not a will at all but an extract from one of the published indexes? Or is my information simply wrong?

Taken from Genuki:

However, detailed information is available relating to the post-1796 destroyed Devon probate records concerning estates on which death duty was payable. Firstly, many such wills proved between 1812 and 1857 had been made copied by the Estate Duty Office, and the copies relating to Devon are now held in the Devon Record Office. In fact, these copies are complete except for the testator's signature. They are indexed in the Access to Archives web site - search on "Estate Duty" and "Devon Record Office", and then choose a catalogue and use "Show the whole catalogue". The catalogue of Estate Duty records is 1078/IRW, broken down into chunks alphabetically by surname, e.g. "1078/IRW/A - 1078/IRW/B", but the surnames are notalways in strict alphabetical order. (The will copies have been filmed by the LDS, on 34 films, with the index in film no. 1278571/2.)

[Peter Goodey]

Ah yes, I was forgetting about the death duty registers. Perhaps Caliope will tell us where it was obtained from.

[caliope]

Good morning, Peter,

It is exactly as Sue stated. I actually just searched for my ancestor's name on the Access to Archives website and was provided with the catalogue number for his will. I then ordered a copy of the actual will from the Devon Record Office (very fast and efficient service, I might add). It has no testator or witness signatures but does have his daughter's signature.

[Jan1954]

Earlier this week, I was at the Probate Office in London.

Whilst trawling the registers for one of mine, I did see the reference to a will going to probate for a woman, who had died a couple of months earlier. Underneath was her husband's will, also going to probate - 6 years after he had died.

It made me wonder if there was some stipulation in either of the wills that prevented the other going to probate until both parties had died.

[HelenVSmith]

Hi

Sometimes it was a case that the family didn't bother going through probate straightaway as everything stayed as a staus quo eg the mother or family member stayed int eh family property and it was only when they died that the will went through probate.

In one of mine the father died leaving everything to the wife for as long as she lived then to a son. The son ends up putting both his father's and mother's will through probate together. This was 32 years after the death of the father.

Regards
Helen