Photographs

[Gillian57]

I wonder if anyone can identify the soldier's uniform/regiment in the first photograph and the significance of the sash in the second. I believe that the photographs were taken between 1890 and 1910.

I have no idea who the people are in the photographs, although they do belong to my family. If someone can identify the uniform and the sash this may help me identify who the people in the photographs are.

I would be very grateful if the experts on the forum can throw any light on the photographs.

Hope the links are accessible.

Thank you.

Gillian


http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj67/netflower/soldier.jpg

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj67/netflower/boy_with_sash.jpg

http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Mike_E]

Hi,

Looking at the soldier, my first instinct is to say 'India' but only because it says Darjeeling on the Photo? I'm not sure, but it looks like three feathers on his collar, so I would be looking for a badge on one of the military sites that matches this.

I'll have a pock around some of the sites I' visit from time to time, but one of our other members more experienced in military matters may hit the nail on the head faster than I.

Sorry, no idea's on the young chap with the sash.

[Geoffers]

Best I can suggest for the uniform is a cavalry regiment -12th Lancers or 10th Hussars possibly?

The sash looks like its from an oddfellows society, or something similar.

[Ladkyis]

perhaps the sash is for one of the Orange orders - is there any Irish ancestry in your family?

[Davran]

I know nothing about miliary uniforms, but the feathers look like the Prince of Wales feathers - could that be the regiment?

[MarkJ]

perhaps the sash is for one of the Orange orders - is there any Irish ancestry in your family?

That was my thought too. Do you know where the family lived? In the North West there were a large number of Irish families living and Orange Marches were commonplace.

Mark

[Alan Welsford]

I don't know about back then, but these days don't most Orangemen have regalia that hangs hown like a 'Vee' at the front, rather than a sash like this ?

It's a curious picture, as it looks like a posed studio shot, so that patterned material that looks like it is just dumped over something to the right would appear to also be of significance.

It's bugging me - I'm sure I've seen something like it, but I just can't think where.

[Peter Goodey]

perhaps the sash is for one of the Orange orders

There's no bowler hat! :D :D :D

[Peter Goodey]

the feathers look like the Prince of Wales feathers

That's what I thought but I'm a bigger dunce at uniforms than you claim to be ;)

[MarkJ]

Looking at the sash it would seem to have some symbols on it - at the top it looks like a representation of a church, then below is what could possibly be a shamrock or similar? Or perhaps just a fancy cross?

He seems to have his right hand in a pocket or something.

As you say Alan, the Orange Order seem to use a V shaped sash, so, unless that is a recent thing (which I doubt), then that idea is a non-starter.

Mark

[Alan Welsford]

He seems to have his right hand in a pocket or something.

Except that the "pocket" seems to be right at the very front of his jacket, if part of it, and to hang down too far.

It's almost like it's a separate bag, but I can't see what's supporting it if it is.

THese "feels" masonic rather than religious to me, but knowing nothing about masons, I do wonder if the lad is a little young.

He looks decidedly uneasy posing in this stuff, for some reason, I feel ;)

[MarkJ]

Agreed - I thought the pocket seemed to be an "add on" rather than part of the jacket.
I would have thought that, if this was a masonic apron, it would be at the front, displaying the symbols. It does seem rather more of a "society" thing - Freemasons or Oddfellows or some other similar group. I had a bit of a nose around the images on Google and found a few vaguely similar sashes for different Masonic groups. It seems each Lodge has its own insignia and some of them were quite close to the one in the photo - with the star shape at the bottom and a stylised cross further up - in much the same way as this image. I am now wondering if the bit near the top is something other than a church - maybe a stylised Westminster image of the bell tower which houses Big Ben or similar?

Mark

Edit: I am now thinking that the thing at the top may be a mark on the photo rather than a church/tower image.

[Jan1954]

I know nothing about miliary uniforms, but the feathers look like the Prince of Wales feathers - could that be the regiment?

I know that Gill has some Welsh ancestors in one part of her family, but I'm not sure whether or not this photo is from that side. However, it could well be a Welsh regiment of some sort...

[Gillian57]

Thank you to all for your responses and ideas.

As far as I know there is no Irish ancestry in my family at all and I'm not aware of any North West connections. These people I believe would be London born - in Stratford or Hackney likely as not.

The photo of the boy with the sash was taken by Theodore Waltenberg, The Photographic Art Company, 288 High Street, Stratford and 419 Bethnal Green Road. Having looked up this photographer, I would date the photo 1892-1908. Not that this helps much with the sash.

I do have another photograph, which I will try to post later and I believe it is the same person as the soldier, although he is not in uniform. In that photo there is a stamp on the back which says 'en face le shepherds hotel cairo'. It also says on it, photographie artistique.

Thanks to all so far and hoping you can throw further light on the photos.

Gillian

[Jan1954]

I know that Gill has some Welsh ancestors in one part of her family, but I'm not sure whether or not this photo is from that side. However, it could well be a Welsh regiment of some sort...


Gill,

The soldier - could this be from the Welsh side of the family?

[Gillian57]

Jan,

No, both photos belonged to the London side of the family, so definitely no Welsh connection.

Gill

[Gillian57]

I hadn't noticed the pocket before, but now you come to mention it, it is quite strange. I had also thought that he looked young and slightly startled, but it could be an uneasiness as someone has said. However, maybe that's just what he looked like. Not sure that he would have been sufficiently well to do to be in the masons, in fact I had always thought he was likely to be working class, but oddfellows is worth following up perhaps. I don't know anything about them at all.

The other speculative idea I had was that the sash could indicate a Jewish connection?

Thanks to everyone. Please keep trying. Any clues are most welcome.

Gillian

[Alan Welsford]

I hadn't noticed the pocket before, but now you come to mention it, it is quite strange.
Well my other half reckons there is no pocket, and what you are seeing is background, bordered by him and bits of the chair.

She says you can clearly see his fingers curled back under his hand, and, on looking at it again, I have to agree with her.

I don't think it's "straight" freemasonary, as the usual symbols like compasses (or whatever!) are missing. (And he seems just too young!).

The rug/shawl/whatever to his right has clearly been included deliberately, and we wondered if it was some kind of prayer shawl. The star is not a Jewish one so far we could tell, though.

Countless "Googles", and we are no wiser!

Alan

[Gillian57]

Alan,

Many thanks for looking at this. I must admit it's even more intriguing now than before, after all the comments. The prayer shawl and the pocket that's not a pocket! Hmm. As you say, we're none the wiser at the moment, but it's exciting mulling over it.

Thank you again - and thanks to everyone else.

Gillian

[MarkJ]

Like Alan, I was pondering the material and wondered if it could be connected with Judaism when it was mentioned much earlier in the thread. Coupled wit hthe name of the photographer and the Bethnal Green area, it is certainly a possible thought. But, as with the lack of Freemasonry symbols, the sash doesn't seem to have any obvious Jewish symbolism on it nor is the lad wearing a cap which I would expect to see if this was a Jewish occasion photograph.

Mark

[Jan1954]

I'm now beginning to wonder if the sash belonged to a Friendly Society. I found a reference here...

http://www.tlysau.org.uk/item.php?lang=en&id=21622&t=1

...that shows a picture of a sash with the "star" being very similar to that in Gill's photo. Okay so there are no tassles on the one in Gill's photo but maybe if the star could be identified, it might provide a clue.

Just a thought...

[Gillian57]

Thanks Jan,

Something more to ponder.

Gill