Marriage look-up Houghton Conquest

[mfwebb]

Does anyone have easy access to the Parish Records of Houghton Conquest for 1843 please?

I am researching my 2 x ggps John WEBB and Ann BUTTS who married in Houghton Conquest Church on 29 October 1843. According to the marriage certificate they were married in the Parish Church "by certificate". I assume this to mean they were married by licence. Their only child, Charles WEBB, was born on 5 December 1843 (6 weeks later!!) and baptised in the Parish Church on 31 December 1843.

Ann, then a widow, remarried in February 1846 in Hillmorton Warwickshire and I cannot find a registered death for her husband John WEBB. Charles was living with his mother and the new family in Hillmorton in 1851 and 1861.

What I am looking for is a transcript of the wording on the Marriage Licence of John WEBB and Ann BUTTS for information about either of them that I don't already have.

A long shot I know, but any help would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks,

Malcolm

[Alan Welsford]

What I am looking for is a transcript of the wording on the Marriage Licence of John WEBB and Ann BUTTS for information about either of them that I don't already have.

A long shot I know, but any help would be greatly appreciated.


This is a very long shot, I'm afraid, Malcolm.

As I'm sure you know, for post 1837 marriages, the register is laid out in virtually identical style to a copy certificate of the registration of the event. It's unusual to find any additional information written in these registers, (as a margin note, for example).

So the only difference I would expect you could see between the church register and a certificate might be down to transcription errors.

The fact that it was by licence will be recorded, but I don't think details from the licence would be. There isn't really anywhere to record anything, other than in preformatted named boxes.

(I'm happy to stand corrected, if other people say they have seen it though!).

Alan

[mfwebb]

Many thanks, Alan, for your response.

I know there could possibly be 1 transcription error as my 2 x ggm's name on the first marriage certificate is BUTTS whereas from other records her name appears to have been BETTS (2nd marriage certificate, son's birth certificate and the 1841 census of the family).

I was just wondering if the actual licence would give any additional information I don't already have -- don't ask what I expect to find as I don't know until I see it.

I obtained a copy of the licence entry for a marriage in 1797 from the Society of Genealogists some while ago and that failed to give any additional information, other than the name of the person who stood surety, so I don't really know what to expect.

Many thanks for your help,

Malcolm

[Alan Welsford]

OK,

But I don't think you will find that the PRs contain any detail from the licence itself, only the information normally recorded for a post 1837 marriage. I think it will say the marriage was "by licence", (which you know), but nowt else.

Alan

[bumblebee]

Is it worth seeing if the Bond survives, I am lucky in Lincoln in that they survive and I have been able to clarify names for myself (and other people). Also the occupation and which parish they are from, (as opposed to the residence at time of marriage). Just little extra snippets really. It is interesting to find out who the bondsman was as well.

Bumblebee

[mfwebb]

Thanks Bumblebee.

It was the original licence I was really after. It is a long time since I trawled through the Houghton Conquest Parish Registers in the Bedford Records Office (1996) and any significance there might be in the licence was beyond my understanding back then.

Any advice on where I would find the marriage licence if it exists?

Many thanks,

Malcolm

[bumblebee]

Malcolm

I had a query with Bedford Archives myself (Summerlings/Prigmores of Felmersham) and I took the liberty of asking if the Licence for your marriage survived. It has not sadly. I don't want you to think I was interfering just thought I would kill two birds with one stone. They were as helpful as they always are and the lady said the original entry for the marriage clearly says BUTTS but you knew that.

Also she did suggest looking to see if John Webb was transported. Is it worth searching the Gaol List on the Bedford Archive site.

Bumblebee

[mfwebb]

I don't think you were interfering at all and I am extremely grateful for the help. Yes, I knew the name was BUTTS on the marriage certificate but I am now firmly convinced that it was actually BETTS and the marriage certificate contains an error.

For several years I was convinced that both John and Ann had died prematurely and that son Charles was "adopted" by the Goodman family in Hillmorton. I checked the gaol registers and transportation details whilst I was in the archives back in 1996 and I have searched again on line several times since.

Once I found Ann remarried as Catherine Goodman, a widow formerly Webb, I thought the death of John would be easy to find. I had the death confirmed by widowhood and the year down to 1844 or 45 and a likely place -- Hillmorton. But the only death of John Webb in Hillmorton is 30 years too old.

I am now beginning to imagine all sorts of things and the strong possibility that John Webb didn't die in 1844 or 45; that Ann changed her name to Catherine and described herself as a widow to explain the existence of a 2 year old child. I have searched the goal records and shipping lists for 1844-1845 to find John but to no avail.

I shall keep searching. It took me 8 years to find Ann and she was staring me in the face all that time -- I just didn't see the obvious. Maybe it will take me another 8 years to find John.

Your advice and help is greatly appreciated.

Just one more query if you can help -- who would issue a marriage licence in the 1840's?

Many thanks,

Malcolm

[bumblebee]

Hi Malcolm

I am not 100% sure who issued the marriage licence except it was from whatever Diocese the marriage comes under.... I think...someone with a greater knowledge should be able to answer better than me. I know sometimes you have to hunt around as the licence could be applied for under more than one Diocese. So I suspect they were issued by the Bishop/Archbishop.

Bumblebee

[ChrisKelly]

According to the marriage certificate they were married in the Parish Church "by certificate". I assume this to mean they were married by licence.

Interesting. I always assumed that "by certificate" simply meant it was a civil marriage. I have a copy of my grt grandparent's marriage certificate (1896) that is worded thus: "Married in the Register Office ..... by Certificate."
Oh well, wrong again it would seem.
:)

[Lincoln Lad]

Borrowed from here :- http://
home.clara.net/dixons/Certificates/marriages.htm#COL9

1) "by certificate" which would be found on a marriage entry in a register office marriage register or in a non-conformist marriage register. It shows that the couple waited 3 weeks between giving notice and getting married.

(2) "by licence" which would be found in the same set of registers and would indicate that the couple may have married with less than three weeks between giving the notice and getting married (minimum of 1 clear working day). However - a licence lasts three months so the marriage wasn't necessarily done in a rush. It may have been easier to give only the one licence notice rather than the two that would have been needed for a marriage by certificate if the bride and groom lived in different districts.

(3) "after banns" which can only be found in a Church of England marriage. It is the equivalent of the certificate for the register office/non-conformist churches.

(4) "by common licence" which can only be found in a Church of England marriage. The licence has been issued by the Bishop for the diocese and I believe is the equivalent of the licence in a register office or non-conformist church.

(5) "by special licence" which can only be found in a Church of England marriage. The licence has been issued by the Archbishop not the Bishop. I believe that this would allow the couple to get married in a church which is not the usual parish church for either of them but I am not sure of this.

(6) "by Registrar Generals" which could be found on any marriage certificate except for one where the marriage was by the rites of the Church of England. It is issued when one of the couple is dying and it allows a marriage ceremony to take place at any location at any time of the day or night.

(7) "By superintendent registrars certificate" is a very rare finding. It is issued for a Church of England marriage but instead of banns being called in the church, notice of marriage has been given to the superintendent registrar. In the early days this would be necessary where services were held so infrequently e.g. in a small chapel,that it was not possible to call the banns on three succesive Sundays and get married all within the three months time limit. Later on it was sometimes used as an expedient if for some reason the vicar did not want to make the forthcoming marriage in the church public knowledge and have the entry in his banns book which anyone can look at. The sort of problem might be where a bride and groom were of different persuasions and the vicar either didn't want the congregtion in general to know or even the bride/grooms family if he thought they might try to disrupt the ceremony. It is sometimes used these days when one of the couple is divorced and the vicar does not want it generally known that he is marrying a divorcee in his church.


Keith

[Alan Welsford]

I am researching my 2 x ggps John WEBB and Ann BUTTS who married in Houghton Conquest Church on 29 October 1843. According to the marriage certificate they were married in the Parish Church "by certificate".

Now I'm confused, (again! :confused::confused:)

Following that posting by Lincoln Lad, I've just been through a stack of marriage certificates, to see if the explanation agrees with my reality.

It seems that copy certificates for marriages in the early days of civil registration don't specify "by banns", "by licence" or whatever - well none of mine do, anyway. The earliest one I can quickly turn up mentioning it is not until 1854.

All occurrences of "by certificate" I have relate to Baptist (lots!), Methodist, Roman Catholic or Register Office weddings.

"By Banns" perhaps not unsurprisingly only appears on CoE weddings.

I have few examples of "By Licence", but none of these turn out to relate to a C of E wedding. For example, I've one for my grandmother (Baptist Church) and one for her sister (Register Office). I can't quite imagine why - both lived where the marriage took place, and neither had any obvious urgent need to marry. (I guess I'll never know).

Now to check if that agrees with the explanation - Yes! it seems to!

Alan

[bumblebee]

I only have two marriages by Licence (pre 1837) and both are C of E (just checked). I do not have the licences but I do have the bonds (from Lincoln Archives).

I wonder if the meaning of 'by Licence' changed when bonds and allegations were no longer deemed necessary.

Just to throw a last spanner in the works, I was uncertain about the wording of 'by certificate' and asked the lady in Bedford Archives if that meant the same as 'by licence' - she said 'yes it does'...

When Lincoln Lad and I got married many many years ago (after 1837) it was by 'special licence' (just checked) and that was not in a Church.

Bumblebee

[bumblebee]

Alan

Just re-read your post and when you say copy certificates from the early days of registrations I am not sure what you mean by that, but I have copies from 1840 onwards and they all say 'in the established church by Banns'. (I don't have any 'by licence' after 1837).

Bumblebee

[Alan Welsford]

When Lincoln Lad and I got married many many years ago (after 1837) it was by 'special licence' (just checked) and that was not in a Church.

That seems to clobber number 5 then!


(5) "by special licence" which can only be found in a Church of England marriage.



When Lincoln Lad and I got married many many years ago (after 1837)


After 1837 - like it !!

[mfwebb]

I have just double checked the certificate I have for John WEBB and Ann BUTTS which started off this thread.

The marriage took place in the Parish Church of Houghton Conquest, Bedfordshire on 29 October 1843. The copy certificate I have says "Married in the Parish Church according to the Rites and Ceremonies of the United Church of England & Ireland by Certificate by me J. H. Whitehead, Off. Min."

I have also double checked my field notes for my trip to Bedford Archives in 1996 and see that I also looked at an entry in the Banns Book -- this is my note -- "1843 No. 119 - Banns of marriage between John WEBB of this Parish bachelor and Ann BUTTS of this Parish spinster were published on the 3 Sundays underwritten [there is only one date completed in the banns register being Sunday 8 October]".

So, it appears as though the certificate should have said "after Banns" and not "by Certificate".

Malcolm

[bumblebee]

Hi Malcolm

Well at least that has sorted that out and you can be absolutely sure there is nothing else to find in regards to a licence.

It is going to be difficult to find out what did happen to John Webb.

Bumblebee.