Need Help!

[lottietottie07]

I have got a marriage certificate of my Great Auntie and Great Unlce.

My Great Auntie is called Glayds Rayner and my Great Unlce is called Bernard Cullen. They got married on 23rd March 1932 in Grimsby. But the thing Im stuck on or has got me puzled is that the names of the father of Gladys is Robert Rayner! There is NO Robert Rayner in the family tree and no one knows who is Gladys father but there is a Robert Mountain who was with her mother could this be him or is Robert Rayner her dad?
Bernard's father is down as Bert Cullen (deceased) how would I chase him up?

The wedding was in the Persence of Charlotte Holmes (Gladys mother) and M. Cullen dont know who that is, Also how do I found out who that is?

[Alan Welsford]

It sound's to me that you need Gladys' birth certificate, if you do not already have it. I say that because you seem uncertain to whether her father is known.

Can you explain why Gladys' RAYNER's mother is called Gladys HOLMES at the time of the wedding, please ?

If she was married, she would not use a maiden name as a witness. So did she marry a Mr HOLMES after Gladys' birth, or am I not following ?

If Robert MOUNTAIN was a 'partner' to Gladys' mother, (whether her actual dad, or not), it would not be unusual to find a Robert RAYNER being invented for the purposes of the wedding, to avoid the embarrassment of no father present.

If I've completely misunderstood, please put me right ;)

Alan

EDIT:

Alternatively had Gladys been married before ?

Oh yes, and as to going back to chase up parents, are the ages of the bride and groom, and occupations of the 'father's given, please ?

[lottietottie07]

Bernard was 21 years old and Gladys was 19 years old when they both got married, the fathers occupations are Bert Cullen worked as a slaughter Man and "Robert" Rayner was a bricklayer.

Gladys mother is "Charlotte Holmes", her maiden surname is "Rayner" Charlotte married "Robert Mountain" in 1916 but it gets confusing as Charlotte's surname changes to "Holmes" while she is still with Robert Mountain. But she never married "Mark Holmes" So for a out sider 2 have a look at my family tree they wouldnt really understand it.

Gladys hadnt been married before her marriage to Bernard

[Alan Welsford]

Gladys mother is "Charlotte Holmes", her maiden surname is "Rayner" Charlotte married "Robert Mountain" in 1916 but it gets confusing as Charlotte's surname changes to "Holmes" while she is still with Robert Mountain. But she never married "Mark Holmes" So for a out sider 2 have a look at my family tree they wouldnt really understand it.

You are not wrong there! I don't really understand it, but let me try...

Please correct me where I go wrong!.....

1) If Gladys was 19 at marriage in 1932, she would be born around 1913. (This seems to have been in the west riding of Yorkshire).

2) Her mother was (unmarried) Charlotte RAYNER, her birth father is not known.

3) After her birth, Charlotte RAYNER marries Robert MOUNTAIN in 1916.
(This appears to have been in Norfolk).

Now this where I get really confused :confused::confused:

4) A Mark HOLMES enters the picture in some way, and Charlotte starts calling herself Charlotte HOLMES, although she is still with, and married to Robert MOUNTAIN.

5) Gladys RAYNER marries Bernard Cullen in 1932, naming her father as Robert RAYNER, (who we assume to be Robert MOUNTAIN), but her mother witnesses as (confused again :confused::confused:) Charlotte HOLMES.

Am I right, or did I lose it somewhere ?

Please explain who Mark HOLMES is, and what his involvement in the family was.
Bernard was 21 years old and Gladys was 19 years old when they both got married

At 19 years old, Gladys would have needed parental permission to marry. I think there is little doubt that Robert RAYNER is Robert MOUNTAIN, (if I've understood), but if they were all posing as one big happy family, I'd love to know why Charlotte didn't also sign herself as RAYNER.

By the way, although you have used the spelling RAYNER, both Gladys' birth and marriage appear to have been registered with the spelling RAYNOR.

Let me know if my interpretation of things was right or not......

Alan

[lottietottie07]

Answers 2 your questions:

1, Gladys was born 20th June 1912 in Norfolk.

2, Yes her mother "Chalotte Holmes" was umarried and father is unknown

3, Charlotte and "Robert Mountain" married Dec 1916 in Norfolk

4, Im not to sure how "Mark Holmes" comes into it really, as Charlotte has 9 other children but the surnames go from Mountain, Rayner, Holmes, backto Mountain again and back Holmes. For example these are the children

* Joe born June 1911 but registered surname as "MOUNTAIN" but unsure if this is right.
* Gladys "RAYNER" born June 1912
* Edith "MOUNTAIN" born Dec 1919
* Joyce "MOUNTAIN" born July 1921
* Clara "HOLMES-MOUNTAIN" born Dec 1923
* Jack "HOLMES" born Feb 1923
* Norah "MOUNTAIN" born 1926
* Elieen "MOUNTAIN" born 1928
* (twins) Mary and Ruth "HOLMES" born 1934

so as you can see it's very confussing as when "mark holmes" comes into it as on the Grimsby electoral rolls shows that "Robert Mountain" is the head of the house at 35 Hope Street from the years autumn 1923 through to spring 1929. Then it changes to "Mark Holmes" As far as I know there is no traces of what happened with "Robert Mountain"

5, Gladys Rayner marries Bernard Cullen in 1932 which Gladys names her father as "ROBERT RAYNER" and her mother is down as "CHARLOTTE HOLMES"

Sorry if this has confused you even more! It took my mother and me awhile before we got it!

[Geoffers]

1, Gladys was born 20th June 1912 in Norfolk.

Okedoke - you've used the magic password - 'Norfolk' - You have my undivided attention - What can I do for you?

The above birth appears registered Sep 1912 under the name RAYNER, Gladys in Erpingham vol.4b page 137. From detail you give, I take it that you have this birth certificate and the mother's surname is then recorded as RAYNER? To keep it simple, we'll assume an illegitimate birth, father unknown. Where was she born in Norfolk? Was she born in a workhouse?

3, Charlotte and "Robert Mountain" married Dec 1916 in Norfolk

Here you confused me, because the GRO index has

Mar 1916 MOUNTAIN, Robert A, Erpingham, vol.4b page 131
Mar 1916 RAYNER, Charlotte S, Erpingham, vol. 4b page 131

Did they actually marry in Dec 1915? In what parish did they marry?
How old were Robert and Charlotte when they married?

* Joe born June 1911 but registered surname as "MOUNTAIN" but unsure if this is right.

In your shoes, I'd ignore this for the moment, the name MOUNTAIN appears too frequently in Norfolk to infer a definite connection.

* Gladys "RAYNER" born June 1912
* Edith "MOUNTAIN" born Dec 1919
* Joyce "MOUNTAIN" born July 1921

The above can be confirmed without problem

* Clara "HOLMES-MOUNTAIN" born Dec 1923

The GRO index has a birth for a Clara H MOUNTAIN, but mother's maiden name in the entry is LARKEN, is this one definitely connected?

5, Gladys Rayner marries Bernard Cullen in 1932 which Gladys names her father as "ROBERT RAYNER" and her mother is down as "CHARLOTTE HOLMES"

This could be down to the question Gladys was asked when she married and filled in the marriage certificate. The Vicar (or whoever) would have asked her full name - back comes the truthful reply 'Gladys Rayner' - the Vicar then asks, 'What's your father's name?' and is simply told 'Robert' - so he writes down 'Robert RAYNER' - assuming dad had the same surname.

Now if Robert Rayner had packed his bags and run away to the circus - or popped his clogs and mum was then hitched up with Mark Holmes, she may have been a witness (I assume that's where her name is recorded) and recorded her name as 'Charlotte Holmes'.

The questions then remain:

What happened to Robert MOUNTAIN?

When did Charlotte meet Mark HOLMES?

Did Charlotte marry Mark HOLMES?

Fare y'well tergerther

[Geoffers]

Continued from pervious message.......

Looking into this a bit further, have I got the right people here?

Charlotte Sophia RAYNER, bn 1888, Runton. She can be found in 1891 census at RG12/1511 f81 p24

Robert Allen MOUNTAIN, bn 1874, Norwich. He can be found in 1891 census at RG12/1525 f84 p13.

If so, Robert looks to have married in Dec qtr 1899 - I think it was either Ellen Elizabeth Harrison or Elizabeth Cousins (I would guess at Ellen Harrison).

I've only had a brief scan through and may have missed it, but I cannot offhand find a death for his wife. I also could not find a divorce for him.

Out of interest, when Robert MOUNTAIN married to Charlotte RAYNER, what was his marital condition?

[Alan Welsford]

Im not to sure how "Mark Holmes" comes into it really, as Charlotte has 9 other children but the surnames go from Mountain, Rayner, Holmes, backto Mountain again and back Holmes. For example these are the children

* Joe born June 1911 but registered surname as "MOUNTAIN" but unsure if this is right.
* Gladys "RAYNER" born June 1912
* Edith "MOUNTAIN" born Dec 1919
* Joyce "MOUNTAIN" born July 1921
* Clara "HOLMES-MOUNTAIN" born Dec 1923
* Jack "HOLMES" born Feb 1923
* Norah "MOUNTAIN" born 1926
* Elieen "MOUNTAIN" born 1928
* (twins) Mary and Ruth "HOLMES" born 1934

so as you can see it's very confussing as when "mark holmes" comes into it as on the Grimsby electoral rolls shows that "Robert Mountain" is the head of the house at 35 Hope Street from the years autumn 1923 through to spring 1929. Then it changes to "Mark Holmes" As far as I know there is no traces of what happened with "Robert Mountain"

Just your plain simple ordinary family then!


3, Charlotte and "Robert Mountain" married Dec 1916 in Norfolk


Here you confused me, because the GRO index has

Mar 1916 MOUNTAIN, Robert A, Erpingham, vol.4b page 131
Mar 1916 RAYNER, Charlotte S, Erpingham, vol. 4b page 131

Did they actually marry in Dec 1915? In what parish did they marry?

Now you have confused me Geoffers.

I thought Marriages were the one event that implicitly had the same date as their date of registration. Or is there some quirk that can result in a December quarter marriage not being registered until the March quarter following.

I read the above that the marriage must have been in Jan-Mar 1916.

Lottie, can you confirm the date please, and particularly Robert MOUNTAIN's condition as to marriage, (i.e. does he say he is a widower, or previous marriage disolved).


Robert looks to have married in Dec qtr 1899 - I think it was either Ellen Elizabeth Harrison or Elizabeth Cousins (I would guess at Ellen Harrison).

Blimey ! Wasn't it complicated enough already.

Yes, there's every evidence that a Robert MOUNTAIN married Ellen Elizabeth HARRISON. He's a schoolmaster in 1901, and they have a 2 moth old son, Cecil A MOUNTAIN.
Class: RG13; Piece: 1847; Folio: 13; Page: 17


I've only had a brief scan through and may have missed it, but I cannot offhand find a death for his wife. I also could not find a divorce for him.

Unless she died in Yorkshire, I couldn't find an obviously matching death either…

Deaths Dec 1902
-------------------------------------------------------
Mountain Ellen 28 Bramley 9b 243

[Geoffers]

I thought Marriages were the one event that implicitly had the same date as their date of registration. Or is there some quirk that can result in a December quarter marriage not being registered until the March quarter following.

It's always possible.

On the basis that the marriage wasn't in Dec 1916; it's possible that there is a slight typing error and the date should read Dec 1915.

If it should read Dec 1915 and the marriage is in the March quarter 1916, it's possible that the marriage was not registered for a short while.

Yes, there's every evidence that a Robert MOUNTAIN married Ellen Elizabeth HARRISON. He's a schoolmaster in 1901, and they have a 2 moth old son, Cecil A MOUNTAIN.
Class: RG13; Piece: 1847; Folio: 13; Page: 17

Charlotte appears to still be in Runton in 1901:

RG13/1825 f136 p25, where she is recorde as Lottie RAYNER, aged 12

[lottietottie07]

If so, Robert looks to have married in Dec qtr 1899 - I think it was either Ellen Elizabeth Harrison or Elizabeth Cousins (I would guess at Ellen Harrison).

This isnt my Robert Mountain, he was married before he married Charlotte Rayner but that was to Louisa Bishop

[Geoffers]

This isnt my Robert Mountain, he was married before he married Charlotte Rayner but that was to Louisa Bishop

Right-oh, we'll try something else then...........

When and where did he marry Louisa BISHOP? From the two marriage certificates, what was estimated year of birth, what was his occupation and what was his dad's name and occupation?

[lottietottie07]

Robert waz born as Armine Robert Mountain but known as Robert, he married louisa in 1893 norfolk. I havnt got cert for this marriage its Gladys and Bernard's ive got

[Geoffers]

To get to the bottom of this story, you need that certificate. What is your source for him marrying Louisa BISHOP?

Where have you traced them in the 1901 census?

[lottietottie07]

my source of it all is from my mum's cousin as she is looking into the family tree as well, she has passed on alot of info she has found so i havnt really looked into on the part of the family for myself

[Geoffers]

I think you need to have a view of the documentation that your cousin has for the marriage and for your own peace of mind, ensure that it is correct. Without it, you may end up following the wrong line and it would be so annoying to do that.