Records of National Insurance Numbers

[elainewilkinson]

Would anybody know if you can trace somebody with only a death cert through contacting a Records office of National Insuranc Numbers. I dont have my fathers number just his name.
I have drawn a blank with the Social Sevices Department, Birth Death Marrige records Department. The dock Yard and the Local Doctors surgery. My Dad died in 1965. Frederick Lock.
Is there any suh place that would hold records and would you know how to contact them
Thank You
Elaine

[Alan Welsford]

Hi Elaine,

Welcome.

I may be being dense, (quite normal!), but am not quite sure what you are after.

Do you just want to know what your dad's NI number was ? (Which I would have thought was just a case of contacting the Department of National Insurance - or whatever the latest name for the is !).

I don't understand the bit about "trace somebody" - what is it you are trying to do, please ?

Best wishes,

Alan

[Geoffers]

Would anybody know if you can trace somebody with only a death cert through contacting a Records office of National Insurance Numbers. I dont have my fathers number just his name.

If you are trying to trace your dad's ancestry, start with your birth certificate giving your parents' names and mum's maiden name. Then look for a marriages between the two.

A marriage certificate will give ages, your dad's estimated year of birth should roughly correspond with his age at death. Then you can start hunting for his birth certificate.

If you are trying to trace someone forward in time, the informant on a death certificate, or whoever - try looking for your chap's will.

[Barnzzz]

Hi Elaine, National Insurance Numbers are held centrally at the Department for Work and Pensions, however for Data Protection reasons I don't believe they can give a 3rd party any details. I think a National Insurance number would have limited, if any value in tracing someone in the UK.

Sue

[elainewilkinson]

Hi Elaine,


Welcome.

I may be being dense, (quite normal!), but am not quite sure what you are after.

Do you just want to know what your dad's NI number was ? (Which I would have thought was just a case of contacting the Department of National Insurance - or whatever the latest name for the is !).

I don't understand the bit about "trace somebody" - what is it you are trying to do, please ?

Best wishes,

Alan



Hi Alan it's not you. I am confussed so i am bound to confusse everybody else.
I have tried to find my fathers birth date. He died in 1965. i have his death cert, but no info on that except his death date. I have tried to find him with in medical records
but they have all gone now. I have tried the Dock Yard as he was a docker, but although they have started putting the employee's info card on there system that do not have my fathers details. I have contacted who buried him and the cemertary and they have no birth date. And because i dont know where he was born the BMD can not help me.
I have spoken to Social Serices who went through all the Fred Lock's on their data, but my father never received social services help. I know he was married and living in Barking area, but i can not go through the electrol roll as the offices they hold the records at have closed down for TWO YEARS to under go refurbishment. So i am trying to think of anouther way. He would have had a national Insurance Number...so i wondered would they be able to help with just a name and a place of residence, which was Barking and East Ham... and if so where would i contact, would it be local to where he lived or would the records be stored in a central office. I hope i have made sence now, and not just babbled on. Thank you for taking the time to try and help.
elaine

[Peter Goodey]

I have tried to find my fathers birth date. He died in 1965. i have his death cert, but no info on that except his death date.

1. The death certificate should show his age at death. From this you can calculate his approximate date of birth.

2. As Geoffers has recommended, you would be best off looking for his marriage certificate as a next step. This will allow you to refine the approximate date of birth and will also supply his father's name.

[Jan1954]

Hello Elaine,

NINos are issued by the DWP as mentioned earlier in this thread. The records are kept in a central office in Newcastle but are not released without very stringent checks - even for those of people who are dead.

The NINo is not likely to be of much use anyway, as records containing such are closed under various data protection clauses. Even then, it wouldn't give a link to his place of residence.

You have his death certificate. It should have his age at death on it. This would give you a rough idea as to when he was born. You have provided us with his name - how old was he when he died?

[Alan Welsford]

Hi Elaine,

No, you haven't babbled at all - don't worry!

We will try and help if we can.

I'm curious that you say you have your father's death certificate, but that it only contains a death date.

That sounds most unusual, and seems to imply it was recorded by someone other than a family member, who simply didn't know.

It ought to include...

When & where died
Name & Surname
Sex
Age (I think - I don't think it was yet at a time when date of birth is recorded)
Occupation
Cause of death
Signature, description and residence of informant
Date of registration
Registrars signature

I'm sure at least some of these must be present, even if his age is not.

Can you please tell us at least...
Registration district and any sub-district appearing at the top of the certificate.
When & where died
Name & Surname
What, if anything is in the age box - for, example does it say 'Unknown, or similar, or is it completely blank ?.
Name and details of the informant, (which may be a family member, or may just be a doctor).
Date of registration - This is important

At least with the name, the district where the death was registered, and the date it was registered, we can look at the indexes, and see if age is omitted from them, as well.

If it is, your quest is going to get harder, but not impossible, I think. Your next approach might be to try and locate his marriage, for example, which hopefully would give both an age, and details of his father. But let's check out the death registration first.....

Alan

[Alan Welsford]

Additionally, I've just checked, and for the 8 or so Frederick LOCKs who's deaths were registered in 1965, (or in the first quarter of 1966), all have a declared age recorded in the GRO indexes.

So I think that at least, should be on the death certificate.

Over to you!

Alan

[Geoffers]

I have tried to find my fathers birth date. He died in 1965. i have his death cert, but no info on that except his death date....I have tried the Dock Yard as he was a docker.......I know he was married and living in Barking area,.....so i wondered would they be able to help with just a name and a place of residence, which was Barking and East Ham...

Looking at the General Register Office (GRO) death index, there is a death recorded for a Frederick LOCK in the September quarter of 1965, the death was registered at East Ham and he was aged 56. Does that refer to your dad?

Next step is to find his marriage certificate. This will give his age, occupation, marital status and importantly, his dad's name and occuaption. Witnesses may be useful to know as well. DO you know how to go about looking for a marriage certificate? - If not, please ask.

By the way, I began with about as much information as you back in the early 1970s, when there wasn't the internet. I'm still going strong and have amassed lots of information - so worry not, there's a way to find out information and help you.

[elainewilkinson]

1. The death certificate should show his age at death. From this you can calculate his approximate date of birth.

2. As Geoffers has recommended, you would be best off looking for his marriage certificate as a next step. This will allow you to refine the approximate date of birth and will also supply his father's name.

Yes i have calculated 1909, just that there is three others with the same name different places of birth. Yes was hoping to find birth cert, but was informed by the office that holds the records for that area, that the offices are closed for two years for refurishment, so need to find where else they will hold the documents. The number i was given just rings and rings.
I found out that he owned a car and where he was living, so i have written to the DVLA....worth a shot, thank you for you help.
elaine

[elainewilkinson]

Hello Elaine,

NINos are issued by the DWP as mentioned earlier in this thread. The records are kept in a central office in Newcastle but are not released without very stringent checks - even for those of people who are dead.

The NINo is not likely to be of much use anyway, as records containing such are closed under various data protection clauses. Even then, it wouldn't give a link to his place of residence.

You have his death certificate. It should have his age at death on it. This would give you a rough idea as to when he was born. You have provided us with his name - how old was he when he died?

Thank you for your reply , he was 56 when he died in 1965,
i have found three Frederick Lock's, thats why i need to get his exact date, which i think i will only get with his marriage cert.
Thank You for emailing me.
elaine

[elainewilkinson]

Hi Elaine,

No, you haven't babbled at all - don't worry!

We will try and help if we can.

I'm curious that you say you have your father's death certificate, but that it only contains a death date.

That sounds most unusual, and seems to imply it was recorded by someone other than a family member, who simply didn't know.

It ought to include...

When & where died
Name & Surname
Sex
Age (I think - I don't think it was yet at a time when date of birth is recorded)
Occupation
Cause of death
Signature, description and residence of informant
Date of registration
Registrars signature

I'm sure at least some of these must be present, even if his age is not.

Can you please tell us at least...
Registration district and any sub-district appearing at the top of the certificate.
When & where died
Name & Surname
What, if anything is in the age box - for, example does it say 'Unknown, or similar, or is it completely blank ?.
Name and details of the informant, (which may be a family member, or may just be a doctor).
Date of registration - This is important

At least with the name, the district where the death was registered, and the date it was registered, we can look at the indexes, and see if age is omitted from them, as well.

If it is, your quest is going to get harder, but not impossible, I think. Your next approach might be to try and locate his marriage, for example, which hopefully would give both an age, and details of his father. But let's check out the death registration first.....

Alan

Hi Alan, yes it has that he is 56.. that takes me back to 1909, it just there is a couple of Frederick Loks born in 1909, just trying to find what one.
here goes with the info.
Registration Dis East Ham in the London Borouh of Newham.
Cert no HD 027320
No 270
When and Where Died 14 September 1965 at 20 Altmore Avenue East Ham E.6
Name Frederick Lock
Sex Male
Age 56
Occupation A Port Worker (he was a Docker in the Royal Albert Docks Woolwich)
Name of Informant R J Tiffin
Reg 14 Sep 1965
Hope this helps. Thank You

[elainewilkinson]

Looking at the General Register Office (GRO) death index, there is a death recorded for a Frederick LOCK in the September quarter of 1965, the death was registered at East Ham and he was aged 56. Does that refer to your dad?

Next step is to find his marriage certificate. This will give his age, occupation, marital status and importantly, his dad's name and occuaption. Witnesses may be useful to know as well. DO you know how to go about looking for a marriage certificate? - If not, please ask.

By the way, I began with about as much information as you back in the early 1970s, when there wasn't the internet. I'm still going strong and have amassed lots of information - so worry not, there's a way to find out information and help you.

Geoffers, yes that is him. I believe that he married and was living in Ilford/Barking essex. I was told he was living near Upney or Upminster Station. I was going to travel to the records office to go through a Electroll Roll, but the office are closed for two years, cant find at moment where and if they will be moved. Dont know of any other way. I dont know his wife's name.
Elaine

[Geoffers]

yes that is him. I believe that he married and was living in Ilford/Barking essex. I was told he was living near Upney or Upminster Station. I was going to travel to the records office to go through a Electroll Roll

Searching an electoral roll is an awfully long process for little result - I cannot recommend it as a course of action on the information given.


I dont know his wife's name.

You say that Frederick LOCK was your dad - so was this wife you are searching, your mum? If so, do you have your birth certificate?

This should show your mum's name and maiden name. Taking that as a base - look for a marriage prior to your birth.

Why do you need a marriage certificate? This will give you his age, marital state and importantly, his dad's name and occupation. Witnesses may also be related and of use to you. With the information from there, it is far easier to then track a birth for your dad.

Unless there is something more complicated in this story, it is a fairly basic search, which you can do online and order certificates online as well.

If you do not know how to search for births, marriages and deaths using the General Register office (GRO) index and to order certificates - please ask.

[elainewilkinson]

Searching an electoral roll is an awfully long process for little result - I cannot recommend it as a course of action on the information given.



You say that Frederick LOCK was your dad - so was this wife you are searching, your mum? If so, do you have your birth certificate?

This should show your mum's name and maiden name. Taking that as a base - look for a marriage prior to your birth.

Why do you need a marriage certificate? This will give you his age, marital state and importantly, his dad's name and occupation. Witnesses may also be related and of use to you. With the information from there, it is far easier to then track a birth for your dad.

Unless there is something more complicated in this story, it is a fairly basic search, which you can do online and order certificates online as well.

If you do not know how to search for births, marriages and deaths using the General Register office (GRO) index and to order certificates - please ask.

Hi Geoffers
no my father was not married to my mother my birth certificate only has my mothers and fathers name and all the other things normaly on a cert.
I wish they had been.. it would have been so much easier to trace my dad. yes it will be long event looking for his electoral roll, but it might be my only way forward.
Thank you for the time you have spent trying to help.
Hope one day i can email you and say Found Him.

[Alan Welsford]

Elaine,

I'm still confused.

As I understand it Frederick LOCK was your father, but not married to your mother. He went on subsequently to marry somebody else, (or was already married to someone else ??), for whom you don't have the details. I'm assuming you don't know when or where he married with any accuracy.

I don't think tracing the details of that marriage alone will help you identify which of several Frederick LOCKs born around the same time was your father. The best that will be on the certificate is an age, and there is no reason to suppose that that age will be any more accurate than what's on his death certificate. [EDIT: After Peter put me straight, I retract this remark. A marriage certificate will be useful if it gives Frederick's fathers name and occupation. I missed that obvvious fact - sorry!]

A further possible benefit in tracing the marriage, is if you can use it to trace anybody still living who will know further details of your dad, and specifically when and where he was born. Unless his wife was significantly younger than him, it would seem unlikely she is still living, of course, and it's possible nobody else exists who still knows.

Similarly finding him on an old electoral role might give some clues to allow tracing people who might know, but the electoral role entry on its own will clearly do nothing to identify his date or place of birth. (You already know where he was living when he died - the best clue to location).

Can you confirm you have no idea of where your father was born, what his parents may have been called, or what occupation his father had ?

Alan

[Peter Goodey]

I don't think tracing the details of that marriage alone will help you identify which of several Frederick LOCKs born around the same time was your father.

I don't agree. The value of any marriage certificate for her father is as Geoffers set out a couple of messages ago. His father's details will be invaluable in identifying the right birth.

[Alan Welsford]

I don't agree. The value of any marriage certificate for her father is as Geoffers set out a couple of messages ago. His father's details will be invaluable in identifying the right birth.
Yes Peter, you are absolutely correct of course.

I was having a senior moment, as Elaine seemed very focused on wanting to know an exact date of birth, and I stupidly wasn't thinking about what else the certificate might give her.

Now my brain is at least half re-engaged, I can only agree. If Elaine can trace that marriage, it's probably her best chance of identifying the right Frederick LOCK.

Always assuming his parents were married, of course. (But even there I suppose you will tell me that if we have a marriage with no father named, then we are probably looking for his birth with no father named! :o).

Elaine, can you please give the best information you have about the marriage, (between when and when, and what area(s) for example).

Alan

[Geoffers]

no my father was not married to my mother my birth certificate only has my mothers and fathers name and all the other things normaly on a cert.

Okedoke, I don't want to pry into pesonal circumstances, so I'll examine a couple of possibilities:

1. If Frederick LOCK remained married during this period, if he left a will, he may have mentioned other family members - either his wife, or hopefully other children (your siblings or half-siblings). If other children are mentioned who were from his marriage, then tracing their birth certificates should give you the mother's name and maiden name and so help to find the marriage certificate (which I think is important)

2. If Frederick LOCK divorced his wife - whether you can find a record depends on when the divorce took place, More recent divorce papers have been destroyed. If you think he may have divorced his wife, could you let me know a rough time period and I'll suggest what records may have survived.

3. Did Frederick LOCK remain on the docks, or join any armed force in WW2?

4. Someone else will have to answer this 'because I don't know London records. But it may be worth trying various record offices to see if Dockyard employment records have been archived and if so, what there is to help with your search.

5. Do you know anything else about Frederick LOCK? Did he always live in London, did he have any siblings? Do you have an inkling as to his mum or dad's name?


Hope one day i can email you and say Found Him

I haven't given up on this by a long chalk; I think there are still possibilities for tracking him.

[elainewilkinson]

Okedoke, I don't want to pry into pesonal circumstances, so I'll examine a couple of possibilities:

1. If Frederick LOCK remained married during this period, if he left a will, he may have mentioned other family members - either his wife, or hopefully other children (your siblings or half-siblings). If other children are mentioned who were from his marriage, then tracing their birth certificates should give you the mother's name and maiden name and so help to find the marriage certificate (which I think is important)

2. If Frederick LOCK divorced his wife - whether you can find a record depends on when the divorce took place, More recent divorce papers have been destroyed. If you think he may have divorced his wife, could you let me know a rough time period and I'll suggest what records may have survived.

3. Did Frederick LOCK remain on the docks, or join any armed force in WW2?

4. Someone else will have to answer this 'because I don't know London records. But it may be worth trying various record offices to see if Dockyard employment records have been archived and if so, what there is to help with your search.

5. Do you know anything else about Frederick LOCK? Did he always live in London, did he have any siblings? Do you have an inkling as to his mum or dad's name?



I haven't given up on this by a long chalk; I think there are still possibilities for tracking him.

Hi Geoffers and all trying to help.
My father married first, to a women who i know nothing about where they were married or where she came from her name nothing.
they had a daughter... someone once said to me that they believed their daughters name to be Barara, and thats why my middle name is Barbara, i dont know if this is true.
My Dad was a Docker up till he was taken ill and died, i dont know of anything to do with him and the war. He worked in The Royal Albert Docks Woolwich. I have contacted the Dockland records office and they still going through record cards of the employees, there is thounds and they are listd with different owners of the different ships that the workers worked on as well. Anyway they took his details but could not find anythin.
He and his wife did not divorce.. i think they were catholic or his wife was.. so My Mum and Dad lived in SIn.. i think they pretend that they were, there is a nice story they went out for the day and told everyone they had got married.... that makes me ...a very happy person.
I think the name of his wife will confirm who he is and in turn lead me to him.
Thanks alot
elaine

[tommy166]

Seeing as we really only have his death to go on, have you tried searching local papers for an announcement (someone with local knowledge might have ideas on which paper). There might be a tombstone somewhere with more details on. Though working out where he might be buried could be tricky!

I take it R J Tiffin wasn't a relative or anyone directly connected to him.

I don't know if there would be any old union records surviving that might help.

Is there anything else you DO know about him?

Tom

[elainewilkinson]

Seeing as we really only have his death to go on, have you tried searching local papers for an announcement (someone with local knowledge might have ideas on which paper). There might be a tombstone somewhere with more details on. Though working out where he might be buried could be tricky!

I take it R J Tiffin wasn't a relative or anyone directly connected to him.

I don't know if there would be any old union records surviving that might help.

Is there anything else you DO know about him?

Tom

Hi Tom
i know where my dad is buried, i have his plot no, the date he died and the day he was buried. I have contacted the cemertary twice but they have no info in there records other than what i know.He was buried with my mother on the headstone is only my mother is mentioned. all those years ago i dont think people was happy at putting my fathers name on the stone seeing they was not married.
This is one of the reasons i want to know when he was born.. so one day i will see both of them listed not just my mother. I feel sad that there is nothing to mention he is there.
R J Tiffin was my half sisters husband on my mothers side and they have no knowledge of him other than what we know. RJ Tiffen became my adopted Father but sadly died over 10 years ago.
I wouldnt know where to go for a union, but my dad must have belonged to one being a docker.
Thank You for coming back to me.
elaine