Violet Lloyd Daniel birth reference

[pyghtle]

I would like to send for the birth certificate of Violet lloyd Daniel born 1st quarter 1864. can anyone help with the reference numbers.

Many Thanks

Brenda

[Geoffers]

I would like to send for the birth certificate of Violet lloyd Daniel born 1st quarter 1864. can anyone help with the reference numbers.

I've had a look at the GRO index and cannot see a Violet DANIEL(S) whose birth was registered in the March quarter of 1864. Where have you got that specific quarter and year?

[pyghtle]

Hi

I got the information from family search...Latter Day Saints IGI web site.

Birth 30/3/1864
Death 25/09/1938

but no reference numbers!

Brenda

[Alan Welsford]

Hi Brenda,

Despite the precise dates, that's an antry submitted by an unknown member of the Church of Latter Day Saints, so has to be treated with some suspicion.

There is no obvios match as a GRO index entry, and certainly not for that place and quarter.

I can't immediately see someone born in Bury St Edmunds at that time in the 1871 census either.

Violet was a very uncommon name as long ago as 1864.

Closest obvious match is in Norfolk, not Suffolk, and 4 years later with a different second name....

Births Mar 1868
--------------------------------------
Daniel Violett Eliza Forehoe 4b 195

I don't think I like the look of the IGI data.

Alan

[ChrisKelly]

The only birth I can see that is close is this one:
Violette Emily Dansie
1864, Oct-Nov-Dec, Thingoe, Suffolk, Volume: 4a, Page: 430

Curiously the other IGI information appears to be correct:

Marriage: Violet Lloyd Daniel
1887, Jul-Aug-Sep, Chorlton, Lancashire, Volume: 8c, Page: 1098

Death: Violet L. Cooper
1938, Q3, Sheffield, Vol 9c, p. 458

Will look again.

[Pandad]

I found a Violet DANIELLS, aged 8 (abt 1863), born Middlesex, London, Hammersmith on the Suffolk, St Mary, Bury St Edmunds 1871 census (Class RG10, Piece 1727, Folio 32, Page 13)

She is a pupil in what appears to be a boarding school on 44 Southgate Street.

Don't know if this will help the cause.

[Alan Welsford]

I found a Violet DANIELLS, aged 8 (abt 1863), born Middlesex, London, Hammersmith on the Suffolk, St Mary, Bury St Edmunds 1871 census (Class RG10, Piece 1727, Folio 32, Page 13)

She is a pupil in what appears to be a boarding school on 44 Southgate Street.

Don't know if this will help the cause.

Yes, I think it's highly relevant.

Tracked through censuses, I think this is her.....

1871 Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk
Violet DANIELLS, Aged 8, Pupil Born London, Hammersmith
Class: RG10; Piece: 1727; Folio: 32; Page: 13

1881 Chorlton Lancs
Violet DANIEL, Aged 18, Dressmaker, Born Middlsex London
(with widowed father Richard)
Class: RG11; Piece: 3918; Folio: 106; Page: 14

1891 Marple, Cheshire
Violet Lloyd COOPER, Aged 28, born London St Pancras
(wife of Frederick)
Class: RG12; Piece: 2788; Folio 19; Page 32

1901 Tottenham, London
Violet COOPER, Aged 38, born Clapham, Londom
(wife of Fredk)
Class: RG13; Piece: 1254; Folio: 175; Page: 47

So although she has been in Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, her quoted birthplace actually wanders around various places in London, (not as in that user submitted IGI entry).

She appears to have gone a bit upmarket upon marriage, and I'm wondering if she "acquired" the Lloyd name somewhere without necessarily being born with it. (Equally it may be her mother's maiden name, of course).

I still can't find a birth for her in London circa 1863 though.

EDIT:
I did wonder if she was a child belonging to the deceased wife of or father Richard, who was born before they married, and hence been registered with a surname other than DANIEL. But the evidence is that Richard probably married a Mary Ann RINDER in Leeds as early as 1849.

Alan

[Geoffers]

I think there's an intriguiging story here, waiting to be solved.

I only have access to the 1881 census transcript and that shows:

RG11/3918 f106 p14
Prissilla ALBON, wf hd, mar, 37, householder, bn Haverhilll, Sfk
Children Edith 11, Florence 7, Ada 4
Robert DANIEL, widower, 52, unemployed builder, bn Leeds
Violet, 18, dressmaker, bn London
Lily 16, bn London
Roberta ALBON, 6, bn London

I thought it interesting that a widower called Robert lodged with a woman called ALBON and there is a daughter listed last in the schedule who was called Roberta - maybe miy suspicious mind, but maybe not......

1891 census
RG12/2788 f19 p32
Marple, Stockport
Robert DANIEL, visitor, mar, 64, builder, bn Leeds
Priscilla DANIEL, visitor, mar, 45, bn Haverhill
Florence DANIEL, visitor's daur, 18 bn Hammersmith
(visiting COOPER family)

So it looks like Robert married Priscilla between 1881 and 1891.

A check of the GRO index shows Robert DANIEL and Priscilla ALBON both with the same reference
Dec 1890, Chorlton, Vol.8c Page.1259

BUT - looking back at 1871, when Violet DANIELLS, aged 8 and Lily Clara DANIELLS, aged 6 were both at Boarding School in Bury St.Edmund - there is also this census entry:

RG10/1626 f132 p17
Robert DANIEL, hd, mar, 39, Contractor for Public Works, bn Leeds
Priscilla DANIEL, wf, mar, 27, bn Haverhill
Florence DANIEL, daur, 2, bn Bury St. Edmund

So Robert and Priscilla look to have had a long term relationship that was not made official until 1890. Robert was a Contractor in 1871, and unemployed Builder in 1881 - he's had a bit of a come-down. You might check the London Gazette to see if he was declared bankrupt (http://www.londongazette.co.uk/Home.aspx?geotype=London)

Robert does see as though he may have been a widower in 1881. If you go back to the 1861 census:

RG9/171 f31 p9
Store Street, St.Giles, London
Robert DANIEL, hd, mad, 33, Marble and Stone merchant, bn Leeds
Mary A DANIEL, wf, mar, 31, bn Leeds.

There looks to be a possible marriage that might fit in 1857

So, was Violet's birth registered and if so was it as a DANIEL(L)(S) or DANYEL(L)(S), or AL(L)B(I)(A/E/I/O)N - I don't know.

Perhaps Robert had more than one relationship?

It would be interesting to read what you eventually find for this one.

Good luck

[Pandad]

I still can't find a birth for her in London circa 1863 though.



I have also searched the GRO indexes from 1862 to 1865 and cannot find any Violet DANIELS under any variation. I even looked for Lloyd DANIELS with the same result. In my variations I looked at all surnames between DAN and DANN.

[Alan Welsford]

Good grief, yes, Geoffers!

There are certainly a few stories here, based on the additional census information you have pulled out. I admit to having just looked for Violet and her parents, and not paid too much notice to the rest of each household.

What was going on here! Why was Priscilla claiming to be "Mrs Robert DANIEL' in 1871, but not in 1881, despite both being in the same house. Very curious indeed.


RG9/171 f31 p9
Store Street, St.Giles, London
Robert DANIEL, hd, mad, 33, Marble and Stone merchant, bn Leeds
Mary A DANIEL, wf, mar, 31, bn Leeds.

There looks to be a possible marrieg that might fit in 1857

Robert and Mary Ann are together in the 1851 too. They are in Paddington, aged 23 and 21, both born Leeds.
HO107; Piece: 1466; Folio: 332; Page: 18

So the marriage needs to be before then, and this one looks good...

Marriages Jun 1849
---------------------------------
Daniel Robert Leeds 23 366
Rinder Mary Ann Leeds 23 366


I only have access to the 1881 census transcript and that shows:

RG11/3918 f106 p14
Prissilla ALBON, wf hd, mar, 37, householder, bn Haverhilll, Sfk
CHidlren Edith 11, Flroence 7, Ada 4
Robert DANIEL, widower, 52, unemployed builder, bn Leeds
Violet, 18, dressmaker, bn London
Lily 16, bn London
Roberta ALBON, 6, bn London

It's strange that 'Prissilla' here shows as ALBON and married, (but not to Robert).

She can be found as ALBON, unmarried in 1861..

Class: RG9; Piece: 241; Folio: 106; Page: 2
(1861)
Name: Priscilla Albon
Age: 17
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1844
Relation: Assistant
Gender: Female
Where born: Haverill, Suffolk, England
Civil Parish: Shoreditch St Leonard
Ecclesiastical parish: St John the Evangelist
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England
Street address: 14 New North Road
Occupation: Milliner
Condition as to marriage: Unmarried
Registration district: Shoreditch
Sub-registration district: Hoxton Old Town
ED, institution, or vessel: 11
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 11
Household Members: Name Age
Priscilla Albon 17
Alice Batham 18
Emma Harsey 28
Sarah Littlewood 10

I cant find her in 1851

So Robert and Priscilla look to have had a long term relationship that was not made official until 1890.

Yes, it certainly looks like it, although with Mary Ann DANIEL[L][S] being such a common name, it seems quite hard to establish when she died.

And then there are the children to sort out.

Presumably 2 year old Edith P ALBON in 1871, (actually enumerated as a son!), is the same as 11 year old Edith DANIEL in 1881, (although 1871 says born Bury St Edmunds, whereas 1881 has Middlesex London.
But true to form I can't see a registration for a birth of an Edith ALBON around 1869/1870 - nor any particularly good match as a DANIEL.
I don't think it's safe to assume Edith is Roberts daughter - she may just have taken his name once they married.

There is in 1872, a possible registration for Florence, (as an ALBON), but nothing that obvious for Ada.

However for Roberta 'ALBON we find

Births Sep 1874
--------------------------------------------------------------------
DANIEL Roberta Rebecca St.Saviour 1d 108

So at least some of the children are being registered as DANIEL, even though there is no evidence of a marriage at this stage. (Presumably Ada being younger than Roberta, is also likely to be Robert's daughter).

But I wouldn't chose to guess anything with this family.

There are too many births that can't be matched up to GRO indexes, for my liking, including Violet DANIEL, Priscilla ALBON, Edith ALBON [or DANIEL ?].
Plus it should be possible to find Priscilla ALBON in 1851, presumably as part of a family - I couldn't

Can anyone find some of the missing links.

[blue eyes]

Dont know whether this is of any help, but there is a family of Albons all born Haverhill, Suffolk in 1851. No Priscilla with them but a dau Wionla as transcribed born abt 1845. (cant make out the actual name on the census image), also the transcribing of the indexing has been messed up she is down with household members surname Gay though it should be Albon.

[blue eyes]

By looking at the 1861 census for the Albon family the daughters name has been transcribed as Urmla looks like Ursula on the census so that probaly discounts Priscilla for 1851.

[Alan Welsford]

Dont know whether this is of any help, but there is a family of Albons all born Haverhill, Suffolk in 1851. No Priscilla with them but a dau Wionla as transcribed born abt 1845. (cant make out the actual name on the census image), also the transcribing of the indexing has been messed up she is down with household members surname Gay though it should be Albon.
Blimey !, I don't know how you people pull it off.....

There's some colossal mess-up with A******y here which lists others in household as

Michal Gay 12
Michell Gay 17
Middleton Gay 32
Mileka Gay 15
Miriam Gay 29
Moses Gay 7 Mo
Moses Gay 22
Moses Gay 35
Murvin Gay 7 (I heard it through the grape vine ?!?)

Where the blazes does the GAY come into it - nobody in the household is GAY or transcribed as such :confused:

Who are actually there are (All surname ALBON, and all born Suffolk, Havershill)

William 45 Head Shoemaker & Beer Shop Keeper
Rebecca 42 Wife
Eliza 15
Mary 12
Henry 10
Matilda 8
Ursula 6
Charles 3
Alfred 1

HO107; Piece: 1787; Folio: 127; Page: 38

Comparing to birth registrations....

Births Dec 1838
ALBON Mary Ann Risbridge 12 332

Births Dec 1840
Albon Henry Risbridge 12 353

Births Dec 1842
Albon Pricsella Risbridge 12 369 - Seems to be Matilda

Births Sep 1844
Albon Female Risbridge 12 358 - Seems to be Ursula

Births Mar 1848
ALBON Charles Risbridge 12 418

Births Mar 1850
Albon Alfred Risbridge 12 438


The births marry up well if we accept that for some reason the person known as Priscilla, was recorded as Matilda here, and we accept that Ursula was the child not given a name when first registered.

So thanks to Blue Eyes, I think we may at least have found Priscilla's birth, (and I'd argue whereabouts in 1851, albeit recorded as Matilda).

But where are birth registrations for Violet, DANIEL, (lets not forget that was the original question here!), or even Edith ALBON [or DANIEL ?].

[blue eyes]

Have had another look at the 1861 census. Priscilla is working as an assistant, also with her is a Alice Basham also born in Haverhill. Then looking back on the 1851 census she is also living at Beggars Row with her family the Albons also live at Beggars Row.

[blue eyes]

Alan,

The same for Alice.

[pyghtle]

I did not know all this discussion was going on, I have only just received a notification!!!

I can fill in some of the blanks I think.

Robert did marry Mary Ann Rinder they had one daughter Elizabeth lloyd (my GGrandmother). Then I think Mary Ann died sometime between the 1861 census, when they are living in Finsbury, and 1864 which is when Violet lloyd was born to Priscilla Albon. I sent for the death certificate of Mary Ann Daniel, it came this week...it was the wrong one!

By the way Lloyd was the maiden name of Roberts mother.I find it strange that he gave the same middle name to his daughter with Elizabeth and his first daughter to Priscilla.I wanted to send for Violets birth certificate because I wanted to confirm that Priscillas name was on the birth certificate so that i could establish for sure that Mary Ann had died.

It has taken me ages to read through and digest all the information. It is complicated, I could not understand why some of the children were called Daniel and some called Albon, which is why i wanted to establish for sure that Mary Ann had died.I am pretty sure she did because the daughter I know they had together Elizabeth lloyd went back to Leeds in 1860 when she was 9 years old. in 1861 she is listed as a pupil in a Private Leeds school. the head teacher is Ann Rinder...Mary Anns sister.The other pupils are all 13 and 14 year olds, so she was obviously there as a special scholar. Elizabeth was brought up by her aunt Mary (Roberts sister) Why did they all have to have the same names? I have always know this because i have an aunt who is 91 this year and Elizabeth was her Grandmother, but I never knew why she came back to Leeds, but the reason could be that her mother died and Robert took a fancy woman!!

Robert and Elizabeth had 6 daughters;
Violet
Lily
Edith
Florence
Mary (who became Ada)
Robert (who became Bertha)

Some of the information here I have and some of it is new to me, especially a lot of the dates. The birth of Violet is a mystery, I think I have exhausted all channels, it could be wrongly transcribed somewhere. I have sent for the death certificate of priscilla, hoping that one of the daughters is named on there and perhaps i can get some information that way.

So I have no date for Violets birth,
No date for Roberts death and no definate date for Mary Anns death, I am going to have another go at sending for a death certificate for mary ann as I had about 3 deaths in that 5 year window 1861 - 1865.

My aunt knew nothing of all the other children, so it was obviously not talked about in the family!! but......trying to explain all this to a 90 year old!!!!!!!!! The thing is she is really interested.

You have all worked so hard to try to solve this puzzle....please please if anyone has any bright ideas, please feel free to investigate!

Again sorry for my late reply, I am usually on the internet every evening and I did not receive any notificatin of your responses until tonight.

Must go...I am in Spain and we are one hour in front of you, so you know how late it is here.

Brenda

Blue Eyes...in the 1851 census, where is Beggars Row, is that in Haverhill?

[pyghtle]

Sorry made a mistake in the last posting, should have read Robert and PRISCILLA had 6 daughters!!!

Well it is late!!

Brenda

[Geoffers]

I wanted to send for Violets birth certificate because I wanted to confirm that Priscillas name was on the birth certificate so that i could establish for sure that Mary Ann had died.

It would not necessarily confirm that Mary had died. Suppose that her dad had run off with Priscilla ALBON, if a certificate existed it would either show Priscilla as a single mum, or fictiously married - or it might show the mum as Mary.

To find a death of Mary either means locating a death certificate, a burial record, or possibly a will, she may be included in the death duty registers.

If the birth of Violet was not registered, the remaining hope is that she was baptised, which won't provide as much information, but it might be interesting to see if she was baptised as an ALBON or a DANIEL.

[pyghtle]

William 45 Head Shoemaker & Beer Shop Keeper
Rebecca 42 Wife
Eliza 15
Mary 12
Henry 10
Matilda 8
Ursula 6
Charles 3
Alfred 1

I think Ursula is Priscilla and has been mis transcribed. Priscilla was born in 1844.

I think that we have established Priscillas birth in Haverhill in 1844, and the fact that she was in London in 1961 working as a milliners assistant, which is where she met Robert..maybe made hats for his wife. They were quite wealthy when in London, although I would love to know what made him go to London in the first place, I cannot find any connection with anyone in London and it was quite a thing to do in those days. Roberts father was a builder in Leeds, and I believe became a man of property.As someone in this thread remarked he did seem to go downhill after 1871.

What I would still like to establish is who was Violets mother and I am not going to be able to do that without her birth certificate.

The other mystery is when Robert died, I would like to send for his death certificate.

I am going to send for another death certificate for Mary Ann and ask for a reference check this time.

Anyone got any more ideas as to where to go from here?

Brenda

[blue eyes]

Hi Brenda,

Beggars Row
Civil parish Haverhill
Registration district Risbridge
Sub reg dist Haverhill
County of Essex
Ecclesiastical parish Ely

[Alan Welsford]

William 45 Head Shoemaker & Beer Shop Keeper
Rebecca 42 Wife
Eliza 15
Mary 12
Henry 10
Matilda 8
Ursula 6
Charles 3
Alfred 1

I think Ursula is Priscilla and has been mis transcribed. Priscilla was born in 1844.

Hi Brenda,

No, I don't think Priscilla ALBON is Ursula ALBON, because both of them appear in the 1871 census.

Ursula is with her family in Haverhill, aged 15, whereas Priscilla is a milliner at Shoreditch St Leonard, aged 17.

If you look back at my post yesterday where I compare the ALBON family in 1851 census to available birth registrations, you will see that Priscilla is almost certainly the daughter recorded as Matilda in the 1851 census, (unless of course you can demonstrate otherwise :o))

Ursula appears to be a birth where no forename was registered, for some reason, but I think she is "real" after that. I've not followed it through, but there is are two possible marriages for her in 1873 & 1975 (both in Sudbury).

Alan

[Alan Welsford]

Robert and Priscilla had 6 daughters; (Priscilla amended from Elizabeth)
Violet
Lily
Edith
Florence
Mary (who became Ada)
Roberta (who became Bertha) (Roberta amended from Robert)



What I would still like to establish is who was Violets mother and I am not going to be able to do that without her birth certificate.


Hi again Brenda,

I tried to look at the children earlier in the day, and the more I looked, the less sense it made.

Obviously some of the time, all appear as DANIEL, whereas in the 1881 (I think), Violet & Lily appear as DANIEL, but Edith Florence Roberta and Mary (aka Ada) appear as ALBON.

It would be tempting to assume that the above represents how they were registered, but the two GRO index entries I think I can positively identify, Edith P, and Roberta, both show as surname DANIEL |banghead||banghead|.

So why the blazes are they in the census as ALBON ?

Can I ask which ones, if any, you have certificates for, or any other source, that proves Priscilla is the mother, please ?

Whilst by 1871, Mary seems out of the picture, replaced by Priscilla, I don't think one can safely conclude anything about when she died.

If she were dead, why did Robert wait so long to marry Priscilla ?

On the other hand, if she were alive for subsequent censuses, where is she ?

This is one of the most entertaining ones I've seen in ages!

Alan

[pyghtle]

Entertaining...complicated...intruiging and driving me mad!!!

I do not have any proof at all that Priscilla is the mother, which is the reason I wanted to send for Violets birth certificate. At first I thought that maybe all the children with the Daniel surname were Marys children as they seem to have been born in London.

I spent most of today, (between housework) looking through the IGI indexes for all the Suffolk parishes to see if I could find Violet.

One of the main reasons leading me to believe that Mary had died was the fact that Elizabeth Lloyd returned to Leeds at 9 years old and her Aunt Mary (Roberts sister) brought her up. I know a lot about Elizabeth.Maybe Robert was estranged from his family when he met Priscilla. Also I mentioned my Aunt Elizabeths...... Grandaughter, she never heard any mention of Elizabeth having any sisters, also my grandfather (Elizabeths son) lived to be 90 and he never mentioned any Aunts he would have had.

The mystery is who is the mother of the Daniel children.

The death certificate I sent for for Mary Ann was the wrong one, but I am re-sending asking for a different one.

I am expecting Priscillas death certificate any day now, but that will not be much help, i just thought if I could find out who was present at the death, it may lead to a living relative.

Maybe I shoould now concentrate on the next in line of the 6 girls with the Daniel surname, see if I can find the birth reference for Lily.

I have just thougght of something....Violet and Lily went to school in Suffolk and if they were Marys children, that would not have happened, so they must be Priscillas.

I just have a feeling that there is more to this story, so I will keep digging!!!

You have all been wonderful, giving up your time and I have learned a lot more about dates and places, so thank you all very much.


As a matter of interest has anyone come across Lilys birth.(sometimes spelt lillie)

I forgot about Priscilla being on the 1871 census!

Brenda |banghead|

[ChrisKelly]

The mystery is who is the mother of the Daniel children.

I have just thougght of something....Violet and Lily went to school in Suffolk and if they were Marys children, that would not have happened, so they must be Priscillas.

I just have a feeling that there is more to this story, so I will keep digging!!!

I think there's a lot more to the story too. To help with the digging, here's a possibility for Edith:
Edith Priscilla Daniell
1869 / Apr-May-Jun / Bury St Edmunds / vol 4a / 478

I'll have a look for Lily and another look for Violet.
:)

[pyghtle]

Thanks ChrisKelly, much appreciated.

Brenda |bowdown|

[Geoffers]

Searching The London Gazette (http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/AdvancedSearch.aspx?GeoType=London), I just wonder if Robert DANIEL appears in these entries?

15 Jan 1861, Page 199 - Issue 22471

15 May 1863, Page 2615 - Issue 22736

5 May 1865, Page 2420 - Issue 22965

Looking for him is made more difficult by the existence of a solicitor called Robert Daniel Newill - in a general search, you have to pick out your chap from in amongst Mr Newill's frequent mentions. There may be a couple of other references to Robert DANIEL, but the above seem the most likely matches.

[Alan Welsford]

I think there's a lot more to the story too. To help with the digging, here's a possibility for Edith:
Edith Priscilla Daniell
1869 / Apr-May-Jun / Bury St Edmunds / vol 4a / 478

I'll have a look for Lily and another look for Violet.
:)

Hi Chris,

Yes, I found that.

I think with the 'Priscilla' in there it's more than a possibility she is the right one, and, unless this family is really unusual I'd suggest Priscilla not Mary is mother to that one!

But even Edith wants to confuse, because (assuming it's the same one) she appears as ALBON in 1881, and born in London, not Suffolk.

The other one that seems easy to find is Roberta, who although ALBON in 1881, also appears to be registered as a DANIEL.

Births Sep 1874
---------------------------------------------
DANIEL Roberta Rebecca St.Saviour 1d 108

The problem with looking for the others is that the DANIEL[L][S] surname is common enough, and the places of birth in London sufficiently varied, or imprecise, that no one single one stood out to me as the right one. There did seem to be good options for Florence, (but more than 1 I seem to recall), but I struggled with Lily.

As several people have looked, myself included, (twice!), I'm fairly convinced that Violet does not appear at the right times either as a DANIEL[L][S] or an ALBON, (but I'd be very happy to be proved wrong, 'cos it's frustrating the hell out of me).

Personally I think this family is "unusual" enough that I'd not assume that because Violet was schooled in Suffolk, Priscilla must be the mother. Don't forget that in both the 1851 and 1861 census, where Robert & Mary Ann are together, no children appear, so they are already in the habit of placing their children elsewhere.

I still wonder why are Violet and Lily still referred to as Daniel in the 1881 census, when all the other daughters are listed as ALBON.

For me, the jury is out on the mother for Violet & Lily, whereas I think the balance of probability is that the youngest 4 "belong" to Priscilla. (But there seems to be an almost certain guarantee of being wrong with this family!)

Because Robert took so long to marry Priscilla, I still wonder if Mary actually lived a lot longer than we can actually trace her for. I suppose she could also be pretending to be Mrs SOMEBODY-ELSE, somewhere! It would follow the trend!

Alan

[pyghtle]

Geoffers...fancy locating that in the London Gazette!!! i would never have thought of that!

I think the last two probably refer to Robert, is the first one the notice of bankruptcy in 1863 and the last one in 1865, the discharge of bankruptcy.There is a way to confirm this. I have Robert and Mary living in Stone Street Finsbury (St giles) in the 1861 census. If this should be Store Street.... then it is Robert.Unfortunately I do not have the original copy of the 1861 census, so if anyone out there is able to look at the 1861 census to check if the address is Store Street, then that would confirm that it is Robert in the Gazette

The other thing is...I have a Victorian photograph album which belonged to Elizabeth lloyd...my Grandfather gave it to me.Elizabeth lived in London up to the age of 9, then she lived in Leeds with her Aunt Mary until she married in 1875, she married Richard Tebbs , he was from Leicester, but was training to be a chemist in Leeds. Once married they moved to Gainsborough Lincoln.

I am explaining this because the photographs in the album, are not named, but they have photographers addresses on the back. The photographs have been taken in London, Leeds, Lincoln and Leicester.The addresses of the London ones are 174 Regent Street,114 New Bond Side,and Cheapside.So if any of theses adresses are anywhere near to the addresses given in the bankruptcy notices then that would also confirm that this is Robert.

Out of 50 photographs in the album only 5 are from London.I have managed to date the photographs by the clothes they are wearing and the photographer (and with help for experts on the internet) and I am sure that I have identified Robert and Mary.

So if someone has access to the 1861 census please could you check the address for Robert Daniel b 1827 in Leeds, but living in London.

I honestly think that we will never find a record of Violets birth, everyone has exhausted every avenue on that one, and it is looking that way with Lily, and I agree it does seem strange that the two girls christened Daniel seem to have no birth records.

If we do establish that Robert was bankrupt, and it is pointing that way, that would explain his demise over the following years...certainly the photographs I have show them to be very wealthy, ladies in beautiful ball gowns etc, taken in 1860 -65.

I wonder why he went to London in the first place??

Thank you all for being so interested in my story.

Brenda
|wave||wave|

[ChrisKelly]

so if anyone out there is able to look at the 1861 census to check if the address is Store Street, then that would confirm that it is Robert in the Gazette


It's definitely Store Street (St. Giles / Finsbury).
Also, as a further check, it's preceded by Tottenham Court Road in the enumerator's book, which ties in with where it is in London.

[ChrisKelly]

Had a look for Lily and as you say she's proving as elusive as Violet. My best guess is this one:
Lilian Emma Daniel
1864 / Oct-Nov-Dec / Whitechapel, Middlesex / Vol. 1c / p.343

I know the middle name is wrong, but Emma could easily be a mis-transcription of Clara.

[Geoffers]

I think the last two probably refer to Robert, is the first one the notice of bankruptcy in 1863 and the last one in 1865, the discharge of bankruptcy.

I suspect the first may also refer to him, but it depends on hom many stone merchants there were in London called Robert DANIEL - a check of a directory may help. It the first is of him, it hints at a connection with the Midlands and in that case there will be a couple of other entries in the Gazette which are connected.

The other thing is...I have a Victorian photograph album which belonged to Elizabeth lloyd...my Grandfather gave it to me.

You jammy so-and-so!! What a great inheritence

I am explaining this because the photographs in the album, are not named, but they have photographers addresses on the back. The photographs have been taken in London, Leeds, Lincoln and Leicester.

Are these photos of people, or places?

I honestly think that we will never find a record of Violets birth

A baptism in parish registers? -

I wonder why he went to London in the first place??

Work - the main reason for migration. Cubitt Town was being built up in the 1840s and 50s, along with many other parts of London

Thank you all for being so interested in my story.

Thank you - It's a great story. Do keep us updated with anything you find

[pyghtle]

So confirmation of Store Street,thank you Chriskelly I think this proves that itis my Robert in the Gazette what a great piece of detective work Geoffers......it has to be more that coincidence, exciting to find out the other places he lived as well, looks as though he moved round a bit.

The photographs in the album are of family, they have been put in the album in some sort of order corresponding with Elizabeths life. the first ones are taken in London, then Leeds and then Leicester, (where Richard her husband was born), then the last ones are Lincoln, with a photograph of my Grandfather as a baby the last one in the album, he was the youngest of Elizabeths children, his photograph, and two other of the children are the only ones with names and dates on the back (1881)

When trying to identify the people in the photographs, I tried to put myself in Elizabeths shoes and thought...who would I put in my family album, especially the early part of my life in London, well..... no matter what went on with Robert and Mary Ann, I would still include a photograph of my mother and father, so with this in mind ,as I said I managed to date the photos so have a pretty accurate identification as there were only photographs of 2 women and 3 men taken with a London photographer.
I have done extensive research into the Tebbs side (Elizabeths married name), and could identify Richard Tebbs in the album as there is a strong resemblance to my father, but Richard was one of 10 children, so lots of work there.

Just briefly also as a matter of interest...poor Elizabeth...... Richard left her in 1895 with 6 young children and just disapeared,I know this first hand from my Grandfather.Through my delving I found out that he went to New York, he was 49 years old, he bigamously remarried a 24 year old woman. He died in 1923 and is buried in Long Island. Up to this point Elizabeth had beeen well off...... her fortunes plummeted and she returned to Leeds again with the 6 children to be near her Aunt Mary. My 90 year old Aunt can remember being told, that no one spoke his name again!! Elizabeth died in 1929, my Aunt was born in 1917 and can remember and identify Elizabeth her Grandmother, from my photographs...It is great to have a living link with the past.

Sorry to digress, but it is such an interesting story.

I still cannot understand why Robert went to London, his father was a builder in Leeds and must have been prosperous as his daughter Mary Daniel never had to work and on all the census she is down as either 'Lady of private means ' or 'women of property'.

Anyway I have rambled on here, but I am truly excited to have the information about Robert in the Gazette, it is amazing how one thing can lead to another...sometimes you get stuck and just when least expected something turns up out of the blue.

I am going to test the system and send for another death certificate for Mary Ann asking for a reference check. If that works then I will send for the birth certificate of the Lily you found ChrisKelly, as for Violet...stuck with that one I think, I could send for her marriage certificate, but I think that would only show Robert as father because he obviously had good relations with her as he is staying with her in 1881 census.

I will let you know if there is any relevant information on Priscillas death certificate when that arrives.

Grateful thanks again

Brenda

[Alan Welsford]

Hi Brenda,

Your story continues to fascinate.

I have to have my fix, and keep coming back for the next episode.

Do you have certificates that actually positively establish Priscilla as the mother of any of the 6 daughters which might be hers, please ?

Unless Robert had a very strange sense of humour, it seems rather unlikely that Edith Priscilla belonged to anybody else.

But without having established a date of death for Mary, parentage seems difficult to predict for some of the others.

The problem, of course is those damned birth registrations, (or lack of) - the only two that I think we can positively identify are Edith Priscilla & Roberta Rebecca, and those are probably the ones least likely to yield anything unexpected.

I'm not convinced we have come up with one for Lily, let alone Violet. (I have a nagging doubt that the older children may be registered as some other surname we have not yet uncovered - I can't think why that would be, though!).

Alan

[pyghtle]

Hi Alan

No..I do not have any written proof that Priscilla is mother to any of the girls.This is what I do have

Violet lloyd 1863.....Marriage and death references
Lily Clara 1865........Death reference, died unmarried in 1910
Edith Priscilla 1869....Birth reference and marriage reference
Florence Louise 1872..Birth reference
Roberta Rebecca1874 ..Nothing
Bertha 1876... Nothing
Mary Louise Ada 1877 died 1955 unmarried

I know that Priscilla and Lily and Mary Louise are buried in Southern cemetery Manchester, as is Violets husband Frederick James.

Strangely enough there was another marriage of a Priscilla Albon to Joseph Livingstone in Preston in 1880 !!!!

I go to bed thinking about this and wake up thinking about it, I wait for the post, hoping Priscilla death certificate will arrive..how sad is that.

Brenda

I am waiting to get Priscillas Death certificate to see who is named as present at death as she died after Robert. I do not htink I would learn a lot by sending for Violets marriage or death certificate, the only thing is I would see who registered the death as she outlived her husband.

Once I get Priscilla death certificate I will send for one of the daughters birth cerificates.

Am I going mad....I seem to have 7 daughters now!!!

The other thing I have never been able to find is a then not on 1901.record of Roberts death, he was on the 1891census

[ChrisKelly]

The other thing I have never been able to find is a then not on 1901.record of Roberts death, he was on the 1891census

I think that last sentence got a bit garbled, but if you're looking for the family in the 1901 census, they are here living in Manchester:
RG13; Piece: 3761; Folio: 33; Page: 9

Priscilla is a widow so obviously Robert died some time between 1891 and 1901. A quick search in the records came up with this possibility:
Robert Daniels, 1898, Q2, Warrington, vol 8c, p.134
The age fits (born abt 1840, Age at death 58) and Warrington isn't that far from Manchester. Just a thought.
:)

[Alan Welsford]

Hi Alan

No..I do not have any written proof that Priscilla is mother to any of the girls.This is what I do have

Violet lloyd 1863.....Marriage and death references
Lily Clara 1865........Death reference, died unmarried in 1910
Edith Priscilla 1869....Birth reference and marriage reference
Florence Louise 1872..Birth reference
Roberta Rebecca1874 ..Nothing
Bertha 1876... Nothing
Mary Louise Ada 1877 died 1955 unmarried



Am I going mad....I seem to have 7 daughters now!!!

Hi Brenda,

Previously you said that Roberta Rebecca and Bertha were one and the same person. Now you have listed them separately, which is why you have jumpred from 6 to 7 potential daughters for Robert & Priscilla.

Which is correct please, or it open to any doubt ?

Also we do have a birth reference for Roberta Rebecca, listed in previous posts.

Do all the marriage and Death registrations you have been able to find list them as DANIEL, please - I'm assuming they do, but just checking! ;)

Obviously the most interesting daughters to try and trace a birth for are Violet & Lily. I despair of finding a registration for Violet, and don't feel confident that the Lily Chris identified will be the right one either. (No criticism of Chris intended - what he has found definitely seems to be the best match, but is it good enough - I guess only £7 will tell...)

I'd be surprised if the certificates for Edith Priscilla, and Roberta Rebecca didn't name Robert & Priscilla, but then again, looking at this family, perhaps I wouldn't !

Alan

[pyghtle]

Sorry I missed the birth reference for Rebecca..I do try to amend my records with every posting.

Alan...I have just been going back through the postings and I wonder if you could give me the other household members for Violet Cooper in the 1901 census.

The other thing is that a comment was made regarding the fact that Priscilla is mentioned as 'wife'in the 1881 census, but not to Robert...could just be a mistake,but is it a coincedence that there is a marriage of a Pricilla Albon to Joseph Livingstone in 1880..I know she would be called Livingstone, but could that be the reason it took so long for Robert and Priscilla to marry |banghead||banghead|

Will check again on Bertha and Roberta.

Lily had the middle name of Clara, so not the same as the one Chris found.

The name always seems to appear as Daniel.

Another interesting fact....Robert included the name Lloyd in his two eldest daughters names after his mother. The name Daniel has been included in the eldest sons name since Elizabeth, my Grandfather was John Daniel Tebbs, my father Roland Daniel Tebbs and my nephew also has Daniel as middle name,

Sorry about the garbled sentence...my brain is becoming scrambled!!!

Will get back about Roberta and Bertha

[Alan Welsford]

Alan...I have just been going back through the postings and I wonder if you could give me the other household members for Violet Cooper in the 1901 census.

Here you go.....

1901 Census

107 Seymour Road, Tottenham St Anne's, Middlesex

Fredk COOPER, Head, Marr, 39, Princ. Private School, Employer, born, Tenterden, Kent
Violet Do, Wife, Marr, 38, born Clapham, London
Hilda Do, Daur, 12, born Marple, Cheshire
Mabel Do, Daur, 6, born Marple, Cheshire
Lily Do, Daur, 4, born Kentish Town, London
Frederick Do, Son, 2, born Middlesex, Harringay

Class: RG13; Piece: 1254; Folio: 175; Page: 47

Alan

[ChrisKelly]

and don't feel confident that the Lily Chris identified will be the right one either.

I'm not very convinced by it either, but I was getting desperate!
:D

[Alan Welsford]

Hi Alan
Strangely enough there was another marriage of a Priscilla Albon to Joseph Livingstone in Preston in 1880 !!!!

I think this is at least is one possible confusion you can take out of the equation. :)

I think that although recorded in the GRO indexes as ALBON, this Priscilla is from a Northamptonshire family enumerated in censuses as ALBONE or ALBURN

Priscilla ALBONE or ALBURN seems to be born in Eye, Northants (sic), or Peterborough, and is with her family, aged 8 in the 1871 census.
Class: RG10; Piece: 1521; Folio: 33; Page: 10 (She must have been quite a young bride).

A slight wobbly is that after the 1880 marriage, in the 1881 census, she is still shown as unmarried, aged (20), [Looks like she has gained a couple of extra years], in her parents home. But also present is son-in-law Joseph Livingstone. I thing there has been a mix-up recording the family.
Class: RG11; Piece: 4178; Folio: 70; Page: 53

10 years later in 1891 Joseph & Priscilla are together, with a family.
Class: RG12; Piece: 3393; Folio 65A; Page 22

Assuming that any Priscilla can't be in two places at once, I think Priscilla LIVINGSTONE has to be a different person from your Priscilla, who I feel sure was a spinster when she married Robert DANIEL.

On a less positive note, I think I also just failed the test trying to find a birth registration for Mary Louise Ada as well.

So that's Violet, Lily & Mary (Ada) that I can't find |banghead| What other name could they possibly be registered under ?

Alan

[pyghtle]

Alan Thanks for the 1901 census, I needed to confirm that Violet and family went to London, , be interesting to see who was with Priscilla when she died in 1933.

I have found out that Edith married Arthur GB Finch in 1897 in Prestwich Manchester. I have this idea that if I can trace a living relative I may solve a bit of the mystery.

I am relieved that the other Priscilla is not in the equation, things are complicated enough.:confused::confused:

I think Bertha is Roberta, I got confused because there is a discrepancy in the birth dates on some of the census.

I think we have nearly got as far as we can without some GRO certificates..so time to send for some I think!!

Edith was the 3rd daughter, so as we do not have a reference for Lily and Violet, I think that is probably the best one to start with.

The other thing I was thinking is, what if Mary Ann left Robert because he was having an affair and she came back to Leeds with Elizabeth sometime after 1861. Elizabeths Aunt and Elizabeths mother have the same name, maybe the Mary Daniel on the census is Elizabeths Mum, unless it states the relationship...... Have I been reading too many Catherine Cooksons!!!|book||book|

Am getting away from my computer this evening so will have to look at that tomorrow!!!

[Alan Welsford]

Elizabeths Aunt and Elizabeths mother have the same name, maybe the Mary Daniel on the census is Elizabeths Mum, unless it states the relationship......
Well the good news is that the 1871 census clearly shows Elizabeth L as the niece of the head of household, Mary Daniel (who is 41, single, born Yorkshire, Leeds)

However, what you probably could do without, if you don't already know, is that Elizabeth is recorded as Elizabeth L DAVIES! (18, single, born Middlesex, London).

I did see the DANIEL / DAVIES discrepancy earlier, but was probably too overloaded by all the other ideas to remember to mention it. As she appears again subsequently as DANIEL, I think it's probably just an error in that census.

I also definitely think Roberta Rebecca and Bertha are the same daughter.

I wish we could finf the birth registration for either Violet or Lily. I feel they are of more interest than those that follow, as they will give a better idea of Robert's first dalliances with Priscilla.

Come on! Somebody else find them please

Alan

[Jan1954]

How about this brth:

Lilia Clara Daniel (please note spelling of first name)
Birmingham
April to June
1868
Vol 6d
Page 48

It did not always follow that a baby was registered in the district in which they were born...

Haven't seen Violet, though

[pyghtle]

That could be it!! well done!!! Slight difference in dates, but this sometimes happened.

In 1871 the Priscilla and Robert were in Stratford West Ham, which is near Birmingham I believe.

What do you think Alan and Chris.....worth sending for?? |biggrin||biggrin||biggrin|

Brenda

[Jan1954]

In 1871 the Priscilla and Robert were in Stratford West Ham, which is near Birmingham I believe.


Nowhere near, I'm afraid. Stratford is in Essex and Birmingham is in the Midlands.

The only think I can think of (and it's rather cheeky) is that maybe Robert was going on a trip, realised that Lily's birth hadn't been registered and did it while he thought of it. http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee187/Jan_07/shrug.gif

[Alan Welsford]

How about this brth:
It did not always follow that a baby was registered in the district in which they were born...

Well I'm sure there were exceptions, but legally I believe the registration had to take place in the district where the child was born.

We have nothing that connects Lily Clara with Birmingham, and she is declared in censuses as London born.

Also I think 1868 is at least 2 years too late, I'm afraid.

Sorry Jan, but if it were my money, I'd be saving the £7.

Alan

[Jan1954]

Fair enough, Alan. It was the closest I could find.

Strange that there was this combination of names, though...

You wait - I bet they were registered under "Female" Daniel/s or completely different names entirely!

Maybe they were just not registered :confused:

[Alan Welsford]

You wait - I bet they were registered under "Female" Daniel/s or completely different names entirely!

I simply don't know!

I'm not convinced that Violet and Lily don't belong to the real wife Mary, anyway. It seems strange that when all are in the same household in 1881, that they are recorded as DANIEL, but with younger daugthers as ALBON, (even though we know some of the ALBONs are in any case registered as DANIEL :confused:)

I'm wondering if they had different Christian names at birth, to be honest.

Maybe they were just not registered :confused:

It's possible, but later ones clearly are.

Alan

[MythicalMarian]

By the way Lloyd was the maiden name of Roberts mother.I find it strange that he gave the same middle name to his daughter with Elizabeth and his first daughter to Priscilla.I wanted to send for Violets birth certificate because I wanted to confirm that Priscillas name was on the birth certificate so that i could establish for sure that Mary Ann had died.


I've been following this intriguing one with interest Brenda, but something has just struck me. Is it possible that your Mary Ann was Violet's mum and died in childbirth or complications following it? There is a Mary Ann Daniel who dies in the Stockport Registration district in the December Quarter of 1864 - GRO Ref: 8d 46 - but this may be the certificate you have already sent for in any case. Do we know definitely when the family moved up to Marple (this is in the Stockport Reg district).

[Geoffers]

How about this brth:

Lilia Clara Daniel (please note spelling of first name)
Birmingham
April to June
1868


Except that........

GRO Deaths

Jun 1869
Birmingham
Lily Clara DANIEL
Vol 6d Page 6

I'm not convinced that Violet and Lily don't belong to the real wife Mary, anyway

......or to another woman?!?! - WHere births are not registered and the situation is complicated (as it is here), try parish registers for baptisms

[Devonmade]

This is a facinating thread, can we please have an update on what we know for definate and what we would like to know?

Sue

[ChrisKelly]

That could be it!! well done!!! Slight difference in dates, but this sometimes happened.

In 1871 the Priscilla and Robert were in Stratford West Ham, which is near Birmingham I believe.

What do you think Alan and Chris.....worth sending for?? |biggrin||biggrin||biggrin|

Brenda
I spotted that one earlier too, but like Alan I dismissed it as the year (1868) seemed a bit too wrong especially given that Edith was (very likely) born in early 1869. Yeah, save that £7 for another one!
:)

[Geoffers]

I spotted that one earlier too, but like Alan I dismissed it as the year (1868) seemed a bit too wrong especially given that Edith was (very likely) born in early 1869. Yeah, save that £7 for another one!

Another reason to dismiss it (http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/showpost.php?p=143350&postcount=50)

[ChrisKelly]

I'm not convinced that Violet and Lily don't belong to the real wife Mary, anyway. It seems strange that when all are in the same household in 1881, that they are recorded as DANIEL, but with younger daugthers as ALBON, (even though we know some of the ALBONs are in any case registered as DANIEL :confused:)

I'm wondering if they had different Christian names at birth, to be honest.

Actually, there are two Albon girls that fit your theory:
Helen Albone b.1865, Islington
Rose Albon b 1862, Lambeth
As far as I can tell they're born, but then completely disappear out of the record books - not in any census (in particular not in 1871) no marriage, and no death. Very suspicious ...
:)

[pyghtle]

I still wonder why are Violet and Lily still referred to as Daniel in the 1881 census, when all the other daughters are listed as ALBON

Also in the 1881 census why are Violet and Lily referred to as boarders, when the other girls are daughters. If Priscilla was their mother surely she would register them as daughters.

Not sure we can go any further with this, I would still like to know if anyone can find a death reference for Robert Daniel though.

Brenda

[Alan Welsford]

Actually, there are two Albon girls that fit your theory:
Helen Albone b.1865, Islington
Rose Albon b 1862, Lambeth
As far as I can tell they're born, but then completely disappear out of the record books - not in any census (in particular not in 1871) no marriage, and no death. Very suspicious ...
:)
Sorry Chris.

I'll definitely disqualify Rose...

Deaths Sep 1862
--------------------------------
Albon Rose Lambeth 1d 201

And I suspect Helen as well, (although I accept this census entry is for an 'Ellen')

1871 England Census

Name: Ellen Albone
Age: 5
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Charles
Mother's Name: Sarah
Gender: Female
Where born: Islington, Bedfordshire, England
Civil Parish: Biggleswade
Ecclesiastical parish: Ely
Town: Biggleswade
County/Island: Bedfordshire
Country: England

Class: RG10; Piece: 1551; Folio: 11; Page: 15

And yes, I doubt Islington has ever been in Beds, but every birthplace on that page has been "ditto-ed" as being in Beds.

Alan

[Alan Welsford]

I still wonder why are Violet and Lily still referred to as Daniel in the 1881 census, when all the other daughters are listed as ALBON
Brenda

My feeling is much the same. We know we have some registered as DANIEL, but at least once referred to as ALBON. It would seem strange if Priscilla was not their mother, (and I guess Robert their father). I think it would be worth purchasing at least one of the certificates, so you can at least tick that box.

But at no point are Violet or Lily ever listed as ALBON, I believe. I think the balance of probability is that they are not Priscilla's. I'm not sure it's safe to assume they are Mary's (!)

Perhaps therein lies the difference - Priscilla may have complied with the law and registered them, whereas maybe because of some circumstance at the time, Robert and/or Mary never got around to registering Violet and Lily. (It doesn't marry up with the bankruptcies at all, does it ?)

I believe we are still talking about a date where no strict penalties were likely to be enforced for non registration of a birth.

I certainly don't see why either of Violet or Lily would be registered as ALBON, when some of the ALBONs are in the index as DANIEL!

Ultimately though, I expect to be proved wrong on just about any theory I put forward. :o

Alan

[ChrisKelly]

Sorry Chris.

I'll definitely disqualify Rose...

Deaths Sep 1862
--------------------------------
Albon Rose Lambeth 1d 201


Fair enough.
'Twas yet another desperate effort to try and crack this nut!
:D

[MythicalMarian]

Just a thought here - it is bothering me slightly that Robert and Mary Ann Daniel have been tracked on two censuses without any children - if indeed they are the couple married in 1849 (which I think we've established, haven't we?)

It seems rather a long time for them to go with no children. In that case, could Violet and Lily have been 'adopted'?

I'm racking my brains trying to think of all possibilities here, Brenda.

ETA: Sorry, Brenda - just found your mention of Elizabeth in one of the earlier posts. Even so - why such a gap between Elizabeth and the others? If Elizabeth was 9 years old, as you say, in 1861, then she was born around 1851/2. That leaves a long gap to Violet and Lily.

[Alan Welsford]

Just a thought here - it is bothering me slightly that Robert and Mary Ann Daniel have been tracked on two censuses without any children - if indeed they are the couple married in 1849 (which I think we've established, haven't we?)

It seems rather a long time for them to go with no children. In that case, could Violet and Lily have been 'adopted'?

I'm racking my brains trying to think of all possibilities here, Brenda.

ETA: Sorry, Brenda - just found your mention of Elizabeth in one of the earlier posts. Even so - why such a gap between Elizabeth and the others? If Elizabeth was 9 years old, as you say, in 1861, then she was born around 1851/2. That leaves a long gap to Violet and Lily.
Yes this seems a very valid point.

I think it's worth restating the "facts" as we think we have them....

1) Robert DANIEL & Mary Ann RINDER married in Leeds in 1849.

2) Elizabeth Lloyd DANIEL was born in Kensington in 1851, presumably just after the census, as she doesn't appear. (Brenda I assume you have certificate which confirms parents - what's her birth date, please ?).

3) At no point do we ever see Robert & Mary Ann with a child with them. We are assuming, but can't I guess be sure, that Elizabeth was the only one born before the 1861 census. (For example, others may have been lost in infancy).

4) We don't know when Robert first had any involvement with Priscilla, but the censuses shows she is already in London by 1861, (she is 17 at this stage).

5) Mary Ann is around 34, and Priscilla is around 20, when Violet is born, so it's equally possible that either could be the mother of Violet or Lily, (assuming Mary Ann is still alive, of course).

6) We haven't traced Mary Ann's death, but equally she can't easily be found in censuses after 1861.

7) There was some reason why Robert Daniel decided not to marry Priscilla ALBON until 1890.

[EDIT: I suppose the reason might be no more than he knew he didn't have long to live, and wanted to die a married man - Priscilla is a widow by 1901].

8) For some reason the births of Violet LLoyd DANIEL and Lily Clara DANIEL do not seem to be registered, either as a DANIEL or an ALBON.

I can't see how you can break the deadlock for parentage of these two unless....

1) You can find baptisms, that name the mother.

2) Robert DANIEL, (who had been a man of some substance at various points), left a will where he mentions "daughter of my first marriage", or "my child by my second wife Priscilla", or something of that kind.

Can anybody think of a number 3, 4 or 5, etc ?

At the moment I'm stuck.

Alan

[Alan Welsford]

I would still like to know if anyone can find a death reference for Robert Daniel though.

Brenda.

Nothing is easy with this lot, particularly as Robert's age dives in one census, but recovers in the next.

The best I can see is we are looking for him born around 1828, and dying between 1891 and 1901 censuses. Please correct me if you have better information.

Ages on death registrations are not necessarily accurate, but quite a few of the John DANIEL[L][S], in their 60s and 70s, who die between the 1891 and 1901 census can be explained away, by finding their widow in 1901.

The two deaths that seem closest on age, and with no other obvious candidate to be the deceased are....

Deaths Mar 1895
DANIEL Robert Owen 67 Pwllheli 11b 356
(implies born about 1828)

or

Deaths Jun 1900
DANIELS Robert 74 Bolton 8c 208
(implies born about 1827)

The first is for a DANIEL, without the 'S', but we have nothing that gives him the middle name Owen, nor places him in North Wales. It sounds unlikely, and with the 'Owen' seems more likely to be a Welshman, dying in Wales, (although I couldn't find him easily in 1891).

The second death is much closer to Manchester, (obviously!), but is registered as DANIELS not DANIEL. Despite that it seems the better match.

(I think other 'northern' deaths in Great Ouseburn, Liverpool and York over this period can all be explained away as other people).

Do you know if he left a will that might pinpoint the date of his death more accurately, please ?

I'm not sure Roberts death certificate will tell you much more you don't know than date and cause of death. I guess it's highly likely Priscilla will be the informant, but even if it's a daughter, I don't think it will give any surprises. (Unless it's first wife Mary Ann, or course :o)

Alan

[pyghtle]

Hi Alan

Yes I do have copies of Elizabeth Lloyds birth and marriage certificates.

Elizabeth was born 18/05/1851 at 5 Windsor Street Paddington.
Father Robert Daniel
Mother Mary Ann Daniel (formerly Rinder)
Roberts address give same as above.

Marriage certificate...... she married on 3rd June 1875

States father Robert Daniel Stone Mechant, although he was not actually a stone merchant in 1875,he was a 'contractor for Public Works' maybe she did not know this if she never had any contact with her father after her mother 'died'.

Not only can we not find any record of Violet and Lily's birth, we cannot find any record of Roberts death.

Don't know what to do next!!! Except I am going to send for another death certificate for Mary Ann Daniel, I have a Mary Ann died 1861 in Shoreditch and I have another died 1861 in Mile End old town, think I will go for Shoreditch as this is the area Priscilla worked in in 1861.

Thanks everyone

Brenda |biggrin||biggrin|

[Alan Welsford]

Not only can we not find any record of Violet and Lily's birth, we cannot find any record of Roberts death.

See my post above....

I think this one could be worth a gamble.

Deaths Jun 1900
DANIELS Robert 74 Bolton 8c 208
(implies born about 1827)

OK it's for a DANIELS not a DANIEL, but Bolton is not too far from where we find Priscilla and family in North Manchester around a year later.

Check my maths about age versus census dates, but it seems fairly close.

I couldn't find another Robert DANIEL[L][S] alive in 1891 that looked any more likely to be the 1900 death at aged 74.

It would have by then been quite hard not to register his death I think, if they wanted to bury him - not like leaving births unregistered, I believe.

Alan

[pyghtle]

Hi everyone!!

Just a quick update..I have received Priscillas death certificate which is interesting as it shows her to be the widow of EDWARD Robert Daniel. I have no idea as to where the Edward came from, I have never seen that on any census. the other thing is that the death is recorded by daughter Florence Daniel.

I do have death details for an Edward Robert Daniel, I saved the details although at the time I dismissed it as not being my Robert Daniel.I am not sure if I would gain anything by sending for his death certificate as probably his death would be registered by Priscilla.

Priscilla was 91 when she died in 1933.

I am now waiting for a certificate for Mary Ann.

Thanks again everyone.

Brenda :):):)

[ChrisKelly]

Hi everyone!!

Just a quick update..I have received Priscillas death certificate which is interesting as it shows her to be the widow of EDWARD Robert Daniel.
|banghead|

:D

[Alan Welsford]

Hi everyone!!

Just a quick update..I have received Priscillas death certificate which is interesting as it shows her to be the widow of EDWARD Robert Daniel.

Well you didn't expect any of them to die without throwing at least one extra surprise at you, did you!

At least I'm assuming Florence managed to stick to DANIEL when registering the death, and not revert to ALBON?

Does it actually say "daughter of the deceased", please ?

Alan

[pyghtle]

Yes it does say Florence Daniel, daughter present at death.

I am tempted to send for Lilys death certificate, she died after her father and before her mother, so would be interesting to see if Priscilla is named as mother.
I dont want to prolong this thread, I am sure you have all had enough, but I have enjoyed sharing it have appreciated your interest.

Brenda

Unusual that 3 daughters unmarried, 2 married and one Robera (Bertha)missing.

Brenda

[Alan Welsford]

Well don't sign off until we know whether you have got lucky and found the correct Mary Ann death, at least!

I'm not sure if Lily's death certificate will necessarily record relationship details.

I suppose you might get lucky, and find the death is registered by Priscilla.

Even if it said "mother present at the death", I don't think you could take that to mean that Priscilla was necessarily her biological mother.

I suppose it could say "step-mother present at the death", but you would need an extra helping of luck for that one, I think!

I'm not bored by it at all - it's been a fascinating story, and I wan't to hear the answers as you get them!

Alan

[pyghtle]

Thanks for that..I will keep you informed, I will solve this, however long it takes!!!! |cheers|

Brenda

[Ladkyis]

Oh please keep us informed of progress. For anyone new to this hobby your searches and the way other people have helped will be invaluable as a teaching aid. So even if the conumdrum is never solved it has been fascinating to watch it develop.

One other thing, the researchers on this forum will not let this rest. They will keep at it like a terrier witha bone until there is a result of some sort.

[pyghtle]

I will solve it.

I live in Spain, but when in the UK I am in Yorkshire, so if this is not solved by the time I go back, I will pay a visit to the cemetery where the relatives are buried in Manchester and see what information I can get from there.

As you say Ladkyis,it will be an eyeopener for new comers to this forum...I have been overwhelmed by the help I have received, but more than anything I have so enjoyed being able to share each new discovery with the people who have helped me with this saga.



Brenda

[pyghtle]

Ooooops....To all my helpers on this thread who read my last posting before it was amended, I apologise for the 'faux pax'.

Blame it on my scrambled brain!!!!

Sorry |oopsredfa|oopsredfa|oopsredfa

Brenda

[Geoffers]

Ooooops....To all my helpers on this thread who read my last posting before it was amended, I apologise for the 'faux pax'.


You're forgiven - but no more swearing!!
(I thought I had misread things at first)

[ChrisKelly]

Ooooops....To all my helpers on this thread who read my last posting before it was amended, I apologise for the 'faux pax'.


Without wishing to be a pedantic con (excuse my French) I think you mean faux pas.
:D

[pyghtle]

Thank you both!!

I hardly dare come back, and had you both not been so kind probably would not have done.....but......seeing as I am here, I will tell you that I have received notification from the GRO that the second death certificate I sent for, for Mary Ann is not her either!!!! One more to go!!

Brenda

[pyghtle]

PS..... Luckily I mentioned Ladkyis in my message, so you know the thanks were for you lot....(grovel ,grovel) |bowdown||bowdown|

[pyghtle]

To all who helped in my search for Violet lloyd, I have a quick update.....

Not good news though!!!!

I was sure I had a breakthrough....I managed to contact the Grandson of Violet, but he knew nothing about his Grandmother Violet and neither did any of his family.I was filling him in with information about his Grandmother!!. So obviously no one in the family was interested in family history...such a shame.

I had such a lot of help and interest from this forum that just wanted to let you know that I did not give up!!

Brenda