Dead End

[prbaxter]

Hello,

I wonder if anyone can help.

I'm in search of my greatx4 grandfather. He is called Charles Baxter and was born c1788, Sheffield. He appears on IGI for marriage to Elizabeth Roberts in 1806 and also has a number of childrens baptisms on IGI from 1806 to 1820.

The couple appear on 1841 and 51 census in Sheffield.

Sheffield Archives have done some research through for me but havent been able to find anything on Charles Baxter. He has no Baptism record in the Sheffield area - nor on the IGI.

This has kind of put my genealogy to a complete stop. Any help would be much appreciated as i'm now well stuck.

Prb

[Geoffers]

I'm in search of my greatx4 grandfather. He is called Charles Baxter and was born c1788, Sheffield. He appears on IGI for marriage to Elizabeth Roberts in 1806 and also has a number of childrens baptisms on IGI from 1806 to 1820.

Are the IGI entries extracted (most likely to be correct), or submitted (fair chance of being incorrect).

Do you have a copy of the marriage register entry from 1806 and does this give any cludes? - Were either groom or bride minors?, Was the marriage by licence or banns, who were the witnesses?

The couple appear on 1841 and 51 census in Sheffield.

Does the 1851 census show your chap as being born in Sheffield? Do bear in mind that census returns can be inacurrate.

Sheffield Archives have done some research through for me but havent been able to find anything on Charles Baxter. He has no Baptism record in the Sheffield area - nor on the IGI.

The Stamp Act 1783 taxed parish register entries and resulted in either avoidence by private baptism, and sometimes by late baptism (I've found a baptism 63 years after birth). Have you traced a death and burial for Charles BAXTER? Does the burial register entry indicate that the burial was performed of an unbaptised person? Such entries are fairly rare

Is there anything about the family that may have left a paper trail? - Did they lave wills? Were they in the army? (preferably as an officer). Did your chap hold some political or goverment office? At the other end of the scale, did he go in the local workhouse or receive parish relief?

[ChrisKelly]

The marriage you refer to took place in Ecclesfield, which although very close to Sheffield is I believe in a separate parish. The 1851 does indeed say 'Sheffield' for place of birth but it might be a good idea to broaden your search to some of the adjacent parishes.

[prbaxter]

ok - here is what i have back from Sheffield Archives:


-----1841 and 51 census show birth place of 'born in same county - Yes' (1841) and 'Yorkshire Sheffield' (1851).

-----Marriage entry for Charles Baxter and Elizabeth is confirmed:
PR 54/20 fiche3 page 115 - St Mary's Ecclesfield
"Charles Baxter of this parish and Elizabeth Roberts of this parish were married in this church by Banns this 21st day of Apr 1806. The marriage was solemnised between us (mark) in the presence of William Binney and William Unwin.

No fathers names mentioned, no ages and no occupation.

-----Birth of first child, Sarah Baxter 1806:
TI 20/87 page 26 - St Peters, Sheffield index of births
9th Nov 1806 Sarah dau of Charles and Elizabeth Baxter
Fathers occ: Saw Smith
Child born 29th Sept 1806

Saw smith is something i have confirmed.

--- The baptism for Esther Baxter at the same church on 4th May 1808 gave the same details.

Sheffield Archives goes on to say:
A search was then made for the baptism of Charles Baxter c 1788. The indexes of baptisms covering Jan 1784-Dec1787 and jan 1788-Dec1795 were checked but there was no entry for Charles Baxter. Further checks were made in the baptisms at All Saints, Ecclesall, no entry, Hill Top Chapel, Attercliffe, nil return. There were a multitude of nonconformist chapels in Sheffield by the late eighteenth century, and in many cases the records have not survived.

-----Death of Charles Baxter:
PR10/40 fiche 1 page 44
St Philips, Wardsend Cemetery, Sheffield
May 11th 1859
Charles Baxter 71 years
Abode: Beet St.

This cemetery opened in 1857 and there is no headstone according to MI 33/1&2.

Most of his descendants lived near and used St philips for marriage and baptisms.

?

[Geoffers]

-----Marriage entry for Charles Baxter and Elizabeth is confirmed:
PR 54/20 fiche3 page 115 - St Mary's Ecclesfield
"Charles Baxter of this parish and Elizabeth Roberts of this parish were married in this church by Banns this 21st day of Apr 1806. The marriage was solemnised between us (mark) in the presence of William Binney and William Unwin.

Do you know if the witnesses were related, or officials of the church standing in? If either William was related by marriage, you may be able to find some additional information about birthplaces.

[qupte]No fathers names mentioned, no ages and no occupation.[/quote]

In standard marriage register entries this is normal. It's just where marriage was by licence or if a bride/groom was a minor that you might find some extras snippets.

A search was then made for the baptism of Charles Baxter c 1788. The indexes of baptisms covering Jan 1784-Dec1787 and jan 1788-Dec1795 were checked but there was no entry for Charles Baxter

Whilst most baptisms took place early - some parents had their children baptised in a job lot - I've seen entries recording offspring from 5-18

There were a multitude of nonconformist chapels in Sheffield by the late eighteenth century, and in many cases the records have not survived.


Non-Confirmist records held by TNA have been made available online, see this news item (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/news/stories/172.htm) possibly worth a look, just in case?

-----Death of Charles Baxter:
PR10/40 fiche 1 page 44
St Philips, Wardsend Cemetery, Sheffield
May 11th 1859
Charles Baxter 71 years
Abode: Beet St.

Did he leave a will giving any clues?

[Alan Welsford]

A search was then made for the baptism of harles Baxter c 1788. The indexes of baptisms covering Jan 1784-Dec1787 and jan 1788-Dec1795 were checked but there was no entry for Charles Baxter.

Whilst most baptisms took place early - some parents had their children baptised in a job lot - I've seen entries recording offspring from 5-18

Other times I've found baptisms sometimes occur....

1) Immediately before their marriage - presumably the curate wouldn't marry them if he discovered they were not baptised.

or, if they get past that hurdle....

2) Immediately before, or at the same time as their children - for similar reasons presumably....

and finally

3) In their twilight hours - although presumably a burial wasn't completely refused because of the lack of a baptism, :confused:

Alan

[Wilkes_ml]

My mum was baptised/chistened age the age of 21 when she wanted to get married in a church. She also had the option of choosing an additional "baptism" name - which is not on her birth certificate - going off track there I know!

But, I have also come across several children who all were christened shortly before marriage - and at the time I thought they may have been baptist or methodist (not sure whether baptist or methodist baptisms are recognised by the parish church?)

Also, whilst transcribing parish registers (and in my own research) I have come across several "batch jobs" or the occasional "forgotten" one i.e. most children in the family are baptised in a timely manner, but one is missed out - only to be found after (or at the same time) the youngest is baptised.

And then there are the older ones after marriage - usually informative as they say xxxx wife of xxxx, daughter of xxxx and xxxx and often with a birth date.

What is often found with late baptisms is that the birth date is often included.

[Wilkes_ml]

What I forgot to mention is that some indexes such as the I.G.I do not indicate whether a baptism is an adult baptism or give additional information found in the originals.

[prbaxter]

nothing on the link you sent me but a very useful resource.

just been trawling igi again and i've come across this purely by accident:

Male Marriage: RICHD. BAXTER
Spouse: REBECCA BINNEY Family
Marriage:
07 JUN 1767 Cathedral Saint Peter, Sheffield, Yorkshire, England

could this be the binney link?

only found one child baptised under those parents names:
John Baxter - 08 OCT 1780 Cathedral Saint Peter, Sheffield, Yorkshire, England - Father: Richard Baxter, Mother: Rebekah

?

[Alan Welsford]

And then there are the older ones after marriage - usually informative as they say xxxx wife of xxxx, daughter of xxxx and xxxx and often with a birth date.

Yes, I've just had one of those - very helpful. No birth date or age though on mine, which would have made it even better. (My baptism was in the IGI, but not recorded as an adult one, and with all reference to her being "wife of" removed).

What is often found with late baptisms is that the birth date is often included.
Well sometimes yes, but probably less than 50% of ones I've seen recently. On the other hand I've just been looking at quite recent baptisms in St Leonards, Bucks, and other than a few years with one curate, all others had birth dates on, even if only weeks before the baptism. (A gold star to those who did this!)
What I forgot to mention is that some indexes such as the I.G.I do not indicate whether a baptism is an adult baptism or give additional information found in the originals.
There seemed to be a trend in the IGI that there were often two otherwise identical baptism transcriptions, one marked as adult, the other not, (my examples in Hertfordshire) - but any notion of age or DOB on the adult one was lost. More recently I've noticed ones where it is included, (and I am talking about extracted data - not user submitted). Because it's inconsistent, the only reliable way to know what's on the record, and not in the transcript is, of course, to view it yourself.

As an aside the IGI caused me to start looking at baptisms in Cheddington, Bucks. Everything that's in the IGI seems sound, but it's only a subset of the original - some entries for a year are transcribed, many more are not. It's not a question of 'male only' or 'female only' either - there seemed to be no rationale to it at all. So that's one parish where the only vaguely safe route is to look at the originals - the IGI isn't even anything like a "finding" index there.
- and at the time I thought they may have been baptist or methodist (not sure whether baptist or methodist baptisms are recognised by the parish church?)
Perhaps stating the obvious, but not everybody may know this - in the unusual event you can actually trace any record of a Baptist baptism, it will always be an adult one - that's the only kind they do, of course! Some Baptist churches may additionally have kept records of births to their members, others, I know for a fact, never did. These are just as likely to be in some kind of minute book, jumbled up with other church administration, as they are in any dedicated volume.

Alan [grandson of a Baptist minister]