Lovekin/Stanford/Smith -Sussex/Kent

[jackiewing2000]

I have a complete dilemma on my hands. John Smith and Emily had 9 children born between 1853 and 1877, each born in a differnet Sussex parish. On the 1881 census they are listed twice at 2 different addresses. John Smith came from Lamberhurst, Kent and Emily was the daughter of Isaac Stanford, a broom maker from Horsham. Isaac Stanford appears to have married twice to 2 Mary Shepperds in Beeding. In 1871 John Smith was listed as a pedler, later as an agricultural labourer. The mystery continues here, as his and Emily's children have a range of different fathers on their marriage and birth certificates - all an assortment of Lovekins! On the censis their names vary from Smith to Lovekin. I understand that the Stanfords were a travelling family. Who was/were Lovekin? I also see in Horsham there was a George Lovekin marriage to a Handford, also possibly a travelling family.

Does anyone have any infoirmation on any of these families? I understand that the Stanfords were travellers/gypsies.

Jackie

[Geoffers]

Welcome to the British-Genealogy forums.

I cannot help specifically, but you may find some specialist knowledge on tracing your families through the Romany and Travellers FHS

Also, if you cannot find your family in earlier census returns, you might try looking for them recorded just by initials - in my own area of interst in NE Norfolk, quite a few travelling and showground folk appear at the back of a census book, staying on some common or another - a few of the people being recorded by initials, some just by description - they can be hard to trace.

[jackiewing2000]

Thanks Geoffers. A very interesting site. Have had a look and can't see any of these names listed, although among the common occupations I see broom maker and pedlar are given. Stranglely, I have another similar, unconnected family, with 2 'spouses' in opposite ends of the country and again a range of children with different names in each family. The 'husband' was an umbrella maker/repairer. Another possibility. Food for thought!

Jackie

[Ann65]

Whilst the names Lovekin and Stanford dont stand out imediately to me as Rom names, my lot were more Midland travellers than southern, so I may well not have heard of them.

What I can say is this:

Appearing twice on a census happens with Rom if they up-sticks and travel over night. Ive seen it before.

Children being baptised or born in different parishes is a heavy clue to Rom ancestry, as is surname changes. Its also quite likely to find them baptised more than once. Or not at all. Depends on the family, and what gifts the local parishioners were liable to give to wet the babys head!!

Occupations such as Broom Maker, Pedlar, Umbrella Maker are all well within Romany margins, and the surname Smith (translates at Petulengro in Romany) is very well known throughout Britain as a Rom Surname. Being listed as an AG LAB isnt uncommon, as they would likely take any work which would bring them money. Many many Roma either settled in houses during winter months, or stayed in Lodgings, and camped out the cold months in one town rather than travel.

Finally, what we could see as a bigamous marriage -especially once you get further back, the Rom see as perfectly normal. Polygamy was totally acceptable to them. Although its unlikely you would find a marriage certificate.

Hope that helps!

[jackiewing2000]

Thanks Ann for your thoughts on this family. The facts certainly point to them being travellers, although it would be nice to have more firm evidence.

The other unconnected travelling umbrella makers and repairers were Wildy/Abley/Smith/Mulheron links to Stroud/ Rodboro/Lincoln and Exeter. Have you heard of them?

Jackie

[tilimangro]

hi
i am a stanford, from farnham way
my grandfather was stanford his father married a crawford ,and the stanford name comes from ireland originally
if you have anymore information regarding this i would love to know, i have quite a bit of information on the crawford side but the stanford side i dont,would love to know more

[laurence.fuller]

Hi
There are a few Romany sites that would be of interest to your research, Just tap in the following site names into your browser?

(1) passing through.
(2) journey folki.
(3) romanygenes.
(4) romanygenes 2.

The first two will give help on joining, they are free to join.
The last two you can search straight off, they have Hundreds of Family name.

[jackiewing2000]

After a break from my research I have today been jogged back by an email I received today asking if I had discovered anything new about the Wildy family which I mentioned above. Apparently umbrella maker, Thomas Wildy's mother was Elizabeth Morgan born Stroud, Glouc. His father was Benjamin Wildy b Woodchester, Gloucester. In 1861 Thomas was down on the census as Thomas Morgan. No birth registration has been found for any of his Wildy children but their baptism has at last been found as MORGAN at the Lincolnshire archives. They were - Elizabeth b 1861 Bradford; Edward b 1863 Leicester & Ellen b 1865 Lincoln were ALL baptised at the same time at St Swithens Lincoln, in Aug 1865 with parents Thomas & Mary Ann MORGAN (real name ABLAY born Dudley, Staffs), of 4 Beehive Lane, Lincoln, & Thomas a labourer. Thomas had another wife and family in Exeter at the time who he did marry in 1853. Mary Ann went on to have other children after Thomas's death in 1876, with whom, it appears was her next door neighbour Thomas MULHERAN in Lincoln (she named these children SMITH) and then 2 months after the death of his wife, married him. She is buried together with Thomas Wildy, Thomas Mulheran (probably SMITH) and Thomas Mulheran's wife number 1, all in the same grave!

Does anyone know anything about the MORGANS and if there was a Romany family by this name which travelled the Gloucestershire/Lincolnshire area? There are many people descended from this line who are at quite a loss as to their origins. Ellen 'Wildy' married into my husband's family. She was 30 years younger than her spouse. Following his death, a few years later, she again married someone else, once again 30 years older than her.

Any ideas? They seem to be throiwing up mystery after mystery.

Jackie

[Steve Abley]

After a break from my research I have today been jogged back by an email I received today asking if I had discovered anything new about the Wildy family which I mentioned above. Apparently umbrella maker, Thomas Wildy's mother was Elizabeth Morgan born Stroud, Glouc. His father was Benjamin Wildy b Woodchester, Gloucester. In 1861 Thomas was down on the census as Thomas Morgan. No birth registration has been found for any of his Wildy children but their baptism has at last been found as MORGAN at the Lincolnshire archives. They were - Elizabeth b 1861 Bradford; Edward b 1863 Leicester & Ellen b 1865 Lincoln were ALL baptised at the same time at St Swithens Lincoln, in Aug 1865 with parents Thomas & Mary Ann MORGAN (real name ABLAY born Dudley, Staffs), of 4 Beehive Lane, Lincoln, & Thomas a labourer. Thomas had another wife and family in Exeter at the time who he did marry in 1853. Mary Ann went on to have other children after Thomas's death in 1876, with whom, it appears was her next door neighbour Thomas MULHERAN in Lincoln (she named these children SMITH) and then 2 months after the death of his wife, married him. She is buried together with Thomas Wildy, Thomas Mulheran (probably SMITH) and Thomas Mulheran's wife number 1, all in the same grave!

Does anyone know anything about the MORGANS and if there was a Romany family by this name which travelled the Gloucestershire/Lincolnshire area? There are many people descended from this line who are at quite a loss as to their origins. Ellen 'Wildy' married into my husband's family. She was 30 years younger than her spouse. Following his death, a few years later, she again married someone else, once again 30 years older than her.

Any ideas? They seem to be throiwing up mystery after mystery.

Jackie
Mary Ann Abley (not Ablay) is my 2nd cousin 4x removed (a bit distant) it looks like you have her story. I have Mary Ann with 12 children 10 to Wildy and 2 to Mulheron/Smith although it is likely that daur Mary was also a Smith given Thomas died aprox 2yrs before she was born.

Just to add to your notes this is what I have on Thomas.
Born c1831 the 3rd son and 5th child of 13 to Bemjamin Wildy and Sarah Morgan.

1841 census - Living with parents at Bowl Hill, Stroud, Gloucestershire.
1851 census - not recorded
1853 - in the 3qtr 1853 in Exeter he appears to have married firstly to Mary Elizabeth McCarthy or Mary Ann Underhill Brewer (still to determine) she was bn c1834

1861 census - Mary had 4 children by him, John 1yr Thomas 4yrs, Ann 6yrs and Mary 7yrs they were umbrella repairers living in Preston Street, St. Mary Major, Exeter.

1861 census - It also appears that he used his mothers maiden name, Morgan, when he was recorded with Mary Ann Abley in 9 Bradford St., St. Margarets, Leicester, probably an attempt to hide his true identity.
They were living with widower Thomas Newman 65yrs a stocking maker, head of the household, with daur Harriet 30yrs a widow and her children Thomas 6 and Elizabeth Newman 2. Other lodgers are James White 51yrs a farrier wife Eliza 45yrs a milliner, Thomas Morgan 32yrs (his mothers maiden name) an umbrella maker from Stroudwater, Worcs. and his wife Mary Ann Morgan (Abley), 19yrs a cap knitter, bn Dudley. George Williams 19yrs b London a printer/painter Joseph Frear 57yrs mar bn Arnesby, a lab from Leics. Also Mary Ann's parents Edward and Mary Abley with son Mark - see notes on Edward.

In 1871 census - Living at 5, Sincil Street, Lincoln, Lincolnshire as husband of Mary A Wildy she is 27yrs and he 40yrs, bn Stroud, Gloucestershire, an umbrella manufacturer. Children are, Elizabeth 9yrs bn Bradford, Yorks., Edward 7yrs bn Leicester, Ellen 5yrs, Charlotte 3yrs and John 1yr. The 3 youngest bn Lincoln.
1876 - 4qtr Thomas died at the age of 47yrs. I believe the exact date to be 13 Nov.

[jackiewing2000]

Yes- you do have the correct date for the death of Thomas Wildy. You are the first Abley I have been in contact with regarding this family. I do have a couple of contacts with Wildy links. If you would like a copy of my pdf file on the Wildys please contact me off list. I can also put you touch with someone directly descended from this line. She doesn't believe there are any Romany links regarding this line as there has never been any mention by other family members. Have you ever had any thoughts on this theory? I do have a picture of young Ellen Wildy.

Jackie

[Steve Abley]

Hi Jackie,
Thanks for the offer of looking at your pdf. I don't want to sound ungrateful but my research is mostly on the Abley line except where it crosses into other families like Wildy then I will research parents and list siblings of the person marrying into the Abley's, I might have made that sound more complicated than it is!
I found both the research and the story behind Thomas Wildy and that of his father Benjamin fasinating and will continue to enrich it as I uncover new facts. That said I would love to have a photo of Ellen as she is direct offspring of Mary Ann Abley.
As far as my thoughts on Romany links, I am leaning toward the nays on this. Benjamin a labourer all his life was recorded in 1841/51/61 and 71 census as living in the Stroud area. There is no doubt that Thomas travelled especially in his early years selling his umbrellas but also I think to escape from his first marriage. Later settling down in Cincil Street, Lincoln where he died.

By the way how do you go offlist?
Steve

[kerryb]

Hi Jackie

I too have this family in my ancestry. One of their daughters Helena or sometimes Lorraine married James Harmer my 2 x grandfather. I am currently working on trying to find birth certificates for all the children and I am beginning to wonder whether there are actually 3 different sets of children. Helena and William have Emily as Emily Rawlins (yet another surname to contend with!) the later children seem to be John and Emilys.

I am awaiting Bertha's birth certificate to see what that says but as Emily was at home with her father for the 1861 census I just wonder if John was actually 'married' to someone else for the older children?

So far I have only ever managed to find a baptism for Florence/Flora in 1870, none of the other children seem to have been baptised.

Anyway I would be glad to hear your comments.

Kerry

[Hayley01]

Hi im also trying to trace family that were travellers, My mum was born in 1931 her father was George Stanford mother Florence Emily Stanford formally Chalfont, I know her father was a hawker and that my mum was born in Tunbridge Wells (Tunbridge rurrall).

Can anyone relate to this in any way?|help|

[Hayley01]

Hi im related to the Stanfords they are Romany Gypsys, My mus mum and dad were Floence emily Stanford and her dad George Stanford, he later had a second marriage to Ann Stanford, im am trying to look up the family history as well so any help would be much appreciated.

[jackiewing2000]

Message for Kerry. After a year, had a Eureka moment -just been in touch with the grand daughter of Jessie Lovekin/Smith. Although she is in her 80's now - she said, yes, she has always known she has Romany ancestry. Looks as though our theory with all the clues was correct!

[kerryb]

Hi Jackie

One to put on the back burner for now then. every so often I get this family out again and chip away at it but at least we can understand why we can't solve it now!