Three siblings born out of wedlock?

[*bunty*]

|help| Not one, but three, all nicely spaced like one would a regular family... such a mystery! |blush|.

I am a direct descendent of Athalia Parish who was b. 1826 Chirk, Denbighshire, Wales. She was daughter of Thomas Parish b. 1890. She had three children;

John Parish b. 1845
Charles Parish b. 1847
James Parish b 1849

all born in Chirk, Denbighshire, Wales. Now at the time I believe Chirk had a population of around 1500, so not a huge place, with mostly coal miners and ag. labourers.

The 1851 census shows Athalia living in Chirk with her father Thomas, brother Abraham, and three children John, Charles and James (Class: HO107; Piece: 1993; Folio: 804; Page: 8; GSU roll: 87394-87395.).

In the 1861 census she is still in Chirk, but has married William Jones and is called Thalia Jones, and had numerous children to William, while her first three children are living there as well, and are listed as step children (Class: RG9; Piece: 1880; Folio: 94; Page: 3; GSU roll: 542881.).

Now something is strange about this - she had the first three children with no apparent father. I can't find their births on the North Wales online BMD index in order to obtain a birth certificate. I am surprised a woman who has had three children with a mystery father (or fathers! |blush|) could go on to marry a local lad in such a small town. The social history of it fascinates me more than anything!|book2|.

What are your theories? Any idea how I could find the father(s)? LOL

Perhaps she was a lady of the night...???? |laugh1| But then I can't imagine someone wanting to marry her if she was... :confused:

Note: Parrish and Parish seem to be interchanged.

[ChrisKelly]

How about:

John Parish / 1844 / Oct-Nov-Dec / Wrexham / Vol 27 / Page: 270

Charles Parish / 1847 / Jan-Feb-Mar / Oswestry / Vol 18 / Page: 163

[Alan Welsford]

Now something is strange about this - she had the first three children with no apparent father.

I am surprised a woman who has had three children with a mystery father (or fathers! |blush|) could go on to marry a local lad in such a small town. The social history of it fascinates me more than anything!|book2|.

I've been working on families in small villages, or quite often just hamlets, both in Norfolk and more recently in Buckinghamshire.

I've been really quite surprised just how common this kind of thing is, (and I'm talking in some cases of places where the population is in tens rather than in hundreds).

Sometimes I've seen the several children that predate a marriage take the husbands name thereafter, in other cases they have not.

I also would have thought back then that a woman producing a whole series of kids outside wedlock would have made her life difficult, (to say the least).

But it happened a lot.

[Alan Welsford]

How about:

John Parish / 1844 / Oct-Nov-Dec / Wrexham / Vol 27 / Page: 270

Charles Parish / 1847 / Jan-Feb-Mar / Oswestry / Vol 18 / Page: 163
Or sticking with Oswestry, perhaps John is...

Births Dec 1844
---------------------------------
PARISH John Oswestry 18 141

Can't immediately see James though.

[SBSFamilyhistory]

|help| Not one, but three, all nicely spaced like one would a regular family... such a mystery! |blush|.

Now something is strange about this - she had the first three children with no apparent father. I can't find their births on the North Wales online BMD index in order to obtain a birth certificate. I am surprised a woman who has had three children with a mystery father (or fathers! |blush|) could go on to marry a local lad in such a small town. The social history of it fascinates me more than anything!|book2|.

What are your theories? Any idea how I could find the father(s)? LOL


I've been working on families in small villages, or quite often just hamlets, both in Norfolk and more recently in Buckinghamshire.

I've been really quite surprised just how common this kind of thing is, (and I'm talking in some cases of places where the population is in tens rather than in hundreds).

Sometimes I've seen the several children that predate a marriage take the husbands name thereafter, in other cases they have not.

I also would have thought back then that a woman producing a whole series of kids outside wedlock would have made her life difficult, (to say the least).

But it happened a lot.

My husband's grandfather was born in Nottinghamshire and his two older brothers were born out of wedlock, without getting their birth certificates I do not know who the father(s) were, Sarah married and then went on to have two more children. This all happened around the Worksop/Retford area so not big by any means.

[Peter Goodey]

Alan found a couple of possible births.

If the birth certificates aren't productive, you'll need to try church/chapel records.

[suedent]

I have one lady who is connected to my family tree (a couple of her children marry into it) who had 5 children with no apparent father. She then went on to marry her lodger. a widower considerably older than she was.

The wording of the headstone for his wife, erected by her children & not her husband, tells a story of it's own. To cap it all when he died the gentleman left all his money to her & none to any of his legitimate children.

Most of us connected to this lady have a good idea that the man who once widowed became her lodger & then her husband was actually the father of her children. However without any written proof the theory is just that, a theory.

Like Alan I have found when going through records situations where a lady would have multiple children out of wedlock was not uncommon.

In the Haltwhistle PRs I came across 2 unmarried sisters who in one baptism ceremony had 10 children between them. Perhaps the vicar though that if he couldn't persuade the ladies to marry he should at least baptize the children.

[*bunty*]

I am going to order the certificate for Charles and see where that takes me (he is my direct line anyway so most useful). I wonder where James can be He is definitely in census records.

[jeeb]

Hi Bunty,
Two things of interest that may hold a key.

1) Athalia Parish does not appear on the 1841 census as a daughter of Thomas. He is there with several children and unless Athalia is called Elizabeth she doesn't seem to fit in.

A possible thought is that Athalia is not really Thomas's daughter but young Abraham's 'girlfriend' calling herself Parish. Though Abraham is still only 20 on the census it is possible for a 14 year old boy to father children.

Also, though not a very pleasant thought, it is possible that Thomas (a widower) & Athalia were having an incestuous relationship and the children were the result of that.

2) Though this may be total coincidence it may be worth noting. On the 1851 census living next door to Thomas & Athalia etc was Edward Jones and his sister Rebecca, both unmarried but Rebecca had 3 children.
By the 1861 census Athalia was married to William Jones and had moved address but also moved still living next door to them was the same Edward Jones and sister with a fourth 'illegitamate' child.

Though the above suggestions are not openly acceptable, in reality it happened and may be an answer to your question.

The two certificates mentioned by Chris above look hopeful, especially Charles at Oswestry, the registration district for Chirk

Jeremy

[Sandyhall]

Hi there its not unusual I have one relation I found 4 marriage entry's for him
1 st wife died a couple of years after the marriage leaving 1 child.
2nd wife was living with him on the census as an Imbecile with his soon to be 3 wife and her mother living with them as Housekeeper and Servant
3rd wife found 2 marriage entries for them 10 years apart with 13 children all born out of wedlock. They all have his surname as a second Christian name as well as the Mothers surname.
The 3 marriage I think shouldn't have happened because his 2nd wife wasn't dead. Hence the 4th marriage.
Sandy

[*bunty*]

Wow, thanks for opening my mind to all manner of possibilities! |blush|

I just looked in the 1841 census for England (Shropshire) and found an Athalia Jones b 1825 Oswestry, Shropshire. It looks like she has FS (?) written as her profession - possibly family servant? A possibility for this Athalia? Perhaps?

Reference is: Class: HO107; Piece 915; Book: 5; Civil Parish: Oswestry; County: Shropshire; Enumeration District: 16; Folio: 16; Page: 24; Line: 6; GSU roll: 474586.

[Peter Goodey]

A couple of points

1. Oswestry is the name of the registration district that covers Chirk. None of the players was necessarily ever in the town of Oswestry.

2. fs = female servant

[jeeb]

A couple of points

1. Oswestry is the name of the registration district that covers Chirk. None of the players was necessarily ever in the town of Oswestry.

2. fs = female servant

Athalia Jones mentioned above is in the TOWN of Oswestry in 1841.

Athalia Jones death registration:-

Oct/Dec 1868 Oswestry age 42 vol 6a page 453

(This is likely to be your Athalia or could equally be the Athalia Jones that is on the 1841 census if she remained unmarried. However as I mentioned before and you have followed up on, this could be the same woman, ie the Athalia Jones in 1841 becomes Parish in 1851, marries William Jones and is buried as Athalia Jones in 1868.)
Another interesting point:- 1871 Wales census, Chirk
ref RG10/2784 Folio 33 Page 12

James Parrish age 21 born Chirk is listed as the nephew of Benjamin Jones age 43 born Ruabon, Denbighshire.

Jeremy

[*bunty*]

Curiouser and curiouser! LOL Jeeb, that is indeed Athalia's son James you have found. I had seen this record but never thought much of it. So the 1871 Wales census shows James living with his Uncle, Benjamin Jones. I am beginning to think Athalia started out as a Jones, with Benjamin as a sibling (and probably many other sibs) and then either had the first three children with Thomas Parish, who was significantly older than her (but he is listed in the 1851 Wales census as her father) or she shacked up with Abraham Parish, the son of Thomas, and had three children to him, albeit he was only 15 when the first was born. Ah, the possibilities! |laugh1|