Grenadier Guards

[kristen]

I have a family member who was a Grenadier Guard. His name was William Henry DENTON. He is my gt gt grandfather. It would have been in the mid to late 1800's.Ae there records kept of these men? Im not sure if he change his middle and first names around to become Henry William DENTON. Help please anyone.
Many thanks Kristen

[neil1821]

Hi,
Hopefully a moderator can move this to a more appropriate board for you, so the relevant people see it!

There certainly are records you can check.
Can you tie the dates down a bit more for us first? A rough date of birth, marriage etc?
Do you have him on any census returns?

Neil

[Geoffers]

I've moved this thread to the Army forum, which seems more approporiate.

The National Archives (TNA) has loads of resarch guides to let you know what is available. Click here (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/researchguidesindex.asp?j=1#b) and look at links prefixed 'British Army'

Do you know if your chap was an officer?

Can you be more specific with the time period - when was he born, when do you know he was serving in the army, when do you know he had left the army?

Changing forenames around in this way is fairly common. At various times, you may find him recorded as just Henry, or William

[kristen]

Hello Geoffers, sorry to bother you again. As i mentioned earlier I was looking for my gt gt grandfather Henry William Denton. He was a RSM Grenadier guard. I have a copy of the 1901 census that states he was 37 (b 1864?) and born Kent tunbridge wells. He profession / occupation was listed as a Police Constable. I looked at the link to the national archives and I'm confused. I am very new to this website and looking up information on family trees etc. If this new information helps you and in return helps me I am looking forward to hearing from you.

Many thanks kristen.






I've moved this trhead to the Army forum, which seems more approporiate.

The National Archives (TNA) has loads of resarch guides to let you know what is available. Click here (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/researchguidesindex.asp?j=1#b) and look at links prefixed 'British Army'

Do you know if your chap was an officer?

Can you be more specific with the time period - when was he born, when do you know he was serving in the army, when d you know he had left the army?

Changing forenames around in this way is fairly common. At various times, you may find him recorded as just Henry, or William

[kristen]

Hi Neil,
I ahve found out on the 1901 census that his name was Henry William Denton and that he was 37 (b 1864). He was borns in kent tunbridge wells and occupation was a ploice officer. Not sure where to go from after finding this information out. Can you assist?

Many thanks Kristen.

Hi,
Hopefully a moderator can move this to a more appropriate board for you, so the relevant people see it!

There certainly are records you can check.
Can you tie the dates down a bit more for us first? A rough date of birth, marriage etc?
Do you have him on any census returns?

Neil

[neil1821]

Hi Kristen,
Ok, but what evidence do you have that he was in the Army and indeed the Grenadier Guards?

If he was a police officer by 1901, his time in the army must have been before that, let's say sometime between 1880 and 1901. And if indeed he was RSM than he must have been in the army for many years (you don't become RSM overnight!)

[hughar]

Are you sure you have the right person on the 1901 census?

The Henry W Denton age 37, Police Constable, born Tonbridge Wells, Kent and living in Chadwell St.Mary with wife Amy L.E.Denton and 7 children in the 1901 census is also on the 1891 census, age 27, living in the same place, and working as a Dock Constable. And in the 1881 census he seems to be living in Kent near where he was born, working as a groom.

If that's not the one you're talking about, where is he in the 1901 census?

[Geoffers]

Hello Geoffers, sorry to bother you again.

It's no bother, the forums are here to ask questions

As i mentioned earlier I was looking for my gt gt grandfather Henry William Denton. He was a RSM Grenadier guard.

Okedoke - at the moment, what source do you have for his army career?
Is this from a birth certificate for one of his children, or his marriage certificate? If his rank and regiment are from family memories passed down through generations, do bear in mind that tales sometimes get slightly altered in the telling.

Do look at the above two messages from Neil and Hughar

I looked at the link to the national archives and I'm confused.

What bit causes confusion? Perhaps we can explain things to you?

[hughar]

The British Army WW1 Service Records from The National Archives Series WO364 have 6 entries for William Henry Denton, relating to 3 (or possibly 4) different people, with home addresses in Bexhill, Deal and Dewsbury. Also 6 other entries for Henry Denton.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/militaryhistory/army/step6.htm includes a link to the site where you can download them for a fee.

[bwarnerok]

Hi Kristen,
I have an ancestor that was a grenadier guard from 1815-1841. All that I ever found that was helpful as yet has been his release papers from Chelsea Hospital which I found on TNA and gave me some details of his enlistment as well as release. But if you weren't sick enough to be booted and just did your time or died in action, there won't be these records.
In the time you are looking, I doubt that things changed that much - while they did do some fighting after Waterloo, they were primarily for show and are the ones who stand outside the Palace gates. (My dad is convinced that's where my guy got the cough and rheumatism that caused his release). There are a few different groups (and one of these man will certainly correct me with the proper term) and they rotated from castle to castle (ie: Windsor, Buckingham) and then the last group would be away. The London Times Archives often tells the "rotation" of the troups which I think was every few months.
This site: http://users.chariot.net.au/~jahill/army1.htm is interesting. This man was in the Guards later in the 1900's but traditions are traditions. He has good pictures as well and some history and shows that they actually did do more combat and less parading when war was evident.
My guy went in as a private and erm.. 26 years later when he was released he was still a private. So promotion then was not very quick (or it doesn't say much for my ancestor). You hear that it was a honor to be a Grenadier Guard but I don't think my guy had any qualifications or money... he was just taller than average and that was what got him into to this group.
I also found some reenactors and quizzed them. Unfortunately the group I found wasn't much for "history" other than they liked the uniforms and throwing grenades on Sunday afternoons.
I understand that I can call up the muster rolls and download them from the TNA although I'm not certain it would give me much more information other than where he might have been, when. Medal cards I've not found too helpful. But then his discharge papers already said he served "At Home".
The Guard Museum is the next bet and my goal is to get there one day.
Betsy

[neil1821]

Hi Betsy,
So what was your ancestor's name (plus regimental number, battalion etc)?
Maybe we can find the odd bit extra information for you too.

It's true that the Guards had many ceremonial duties, but they were still very much "proper" fighting soldiers as well, Waterloo, Crimea, Egypt, Sudan, Boer War etc

The Guards Museum is worth a visit I'm sure, but for service records for individual guardsmen you want to write to the regimental RHQ:
http://www.theguardsmuseum.com/family.htm
Unusually, the Guards maintain their own record archives and papers haven't been transferred to TNA.

1815, when your ancestor joined, was the year they actually became the Grenadier Guards, in commemoration of their actions in fighting off the French grenadiers at Waterloo. Before that they were the 1st Foot Guards.

[bwarnerok]

Hi Neil,
I've chased this guy for 20 years and just can't figure out which cabbage patch he came out from under. He joined the army on 2 May 1815 and was discharged on 3 September
1836 after having served 21 years and 125 days in the Grenadier
Regiment of the Foot Guards. His commander was the Duke of
Wellington. There is no mention of being stationed in Ireland or Waterloo, but the records show that he served "at home". In those 21 years and 125 days he made it to
Private!!! He was discharged before a Board in London and was found
unable to preform his duties because of cough and rheumatism which
had become worse since the last winter. Probably standing in front of
Buckingham Palace had something to do with that. The report says he
was of good character and trustworthy.

I also learned:
He was was born in the parish of Astley near the town of Bewdley in
the county of Worcester. He joined the army at Gosbooke, Stafford. He was 20
when he joined the army and was a laborer. At the time of his
discharge he was 41 5/12 years old and was 5 ft. 8 1/2 inches
tall(This would have been tall in those days and probably why he was
put into the Life Guards. He had brown hair, blue eyes and was of
fair complexion.

He married an irish girl named Katherine McInerney (haven't a clue where or when) about 1834 and had several children, some in London before his discharge. They then moved to Ireland (Doon supposedly) and when he died in 1848, the wife and children went to Cork where she was supposedly from. Family stories say his fathers name was Thomas and he was a Reverend.. but that doesn't match up in the IGI. Samuel's sons always referred to Samuel as "Father Postance" and perhaps in the scheme of things, somebody miscontrued 'Father' to be 'Reverend' and attached it to Samuel's father .. who knows. Considering he had sons that he named Daniel, John, James and daughters Sarah and Honora .. well, I just have my doubts of the "Thomas" as his dad since in the 1800's people were still pretty consistent with the traditions of naming children.

Although he had enlisted BEFORE Waterloo, I do not expect to find him at those battlegrounds and most likely at home in the barracks learning the basics. Personally Neil, I'm rather disappointed.. 26 years and STILL a PRIVATE? I just think he had to be a slacker of sorts.

Betsy

[neil1821]

Betsy,
But what was his name!!!!
Was his discharge in 1836 or 1841 (ie did he serve 21 years or 26 years)? Only you've said both.

Just to clear up a few points:

- Ireland would have been considered "at home" in those days, as it was an integral part of the United Kingdom.

- He possibly wouldn't have stood guard outside Buckingham Palace, as it wasn't an official Royal residence until 1837!!

- Life Guards were Household cavalry, ie a different regiment.

- It's still possible he was at Waterloo, it's easy enough to check.

- Staying 21 years as a private doesn't necessarily mean he was a bad character in any way. If I look at the rolls for the Army Long Service & Good Conduct medal, which was awarded to soldiers of a minimum 18 years service with exemplary records, there are plenty of privates listed.

Neil

[Jim24096297]

Hi try Grenadier guards manning and records wellington barracks london,the pnone number comes under london military district.there is also a website grenadier guards,regards Jim.

[bwarnerok]

Betsy,
But what was his name!!!!


Neil

Okay Neil.. call me a dumb yank. Duh... would help if I told you his name! |blush|

I'm just now getting caught up on my old posts and saw your reply so please excuse my delay.

My man's name was Samuel Postance. Served 1815 - 1836 (he was supposedly 41 years old at his discharge) Here's what I deduced from the discharge records:

He joined the army on 2 May 1815 and was discharged on 3 September
1836 after having served 21 years and 125 days in the Grenadier
Regiment of the Foot Guards. His commander was the Duke of
Wellington. There is no mention of Ireland, but the records show that
he served "at home". In those 21 years and 125 days he made it to
Private! He was discharged before a Board in London and was found
unable to preform his duties because of cough and rheumatism which
had become worse since the last winter. The report says he
was of good character and trustworthy.

His enlistment stated that he was born in the parish of Astley near the town of Bewdley in the county of Worcester.He joined the army at Gosbooke, Stafford. He was 20
when he joined the army and was a laborer. At the time of his
discharge he was 41 5/12 years old and was 5 ft. 8 1/2 inches
tall.

I cannot find a relevent birth for him in the IGI to fit this description. I've thought maybe he lied about his age and was actually younger when he enlisted but that doesn't help. THere is a Samuel Poston born about the right time to Thomas and Mary Poston but it's way over in Clun, Shropshire which appears to be more than a stroll from the Bewdley area.

I found in 1841 a family in London that "might" be this one although the names don't all match up. It does not appear in an A***** search, but turns up when you search at Britorigins.

His wife was Katherine McInerney who's family lived in Cork and where she took the children to live after Samuel died in 1848. His children included:
John (B: 1835 London), Sarah (B: 1841 London), James (?), Daniel (b: 1844 ireland), Honoria (b: after 1844 ireland).

After his discharge they moved to Doon, Ireland (somewhere between 1836 and 1844) and Samuel died in 1848 at which time Katherine took the children to Cork where her family lived (whoever they were). In Cork they were apparently very poor and Daniel apprenticed but as what I don't know. In the US he was a railroad mechanic and very active in the Episcopal church. One of his brothers was a bookbinder in Pennsylvania but whether he had apprenticed in Cork, I don't know. All of the children except Honora emigrated to the USA about 1870. Katherine died in the first half of 1870 in Ireland. Honoria married a man named John Allen and they had a son named William Allen who was alive and living in Southampton in 1956.

A family tale says that his father was a Minister but I've yet to have found any mention of a Reverend Postance (or Poston or Postons or any other variation of the name I can think of).

In the discharge I saw no mention of a Pension and I thought surely after 26 years there would be one.

Hopefully I gave you more information this time around. Sorry again for leaving out that itty bitty bit of very crucial information.

Betsy