Suicide - once a crime

[brianb]

Hi.
this may be in the wrong section, but here we go, following may be of interest to someone sometime.

I found an 1888 newpaper reporting a joint suicide of a "possible" relation of mine and his girlfriend, and at the inquest (held same day by the sound of it !) the jury came to a verdict of "felo se de", which I searched out and found as the following description:

Felo de se, Latin for "felon of himself," is an archaic legal term meaning suicide. In early English common law, an adult who committed suicide was literally a felon, and the crime was punishable by forfeiture of property to the king and what was considered a shameful burial (typically with a stake through his heart and with a burial at a crossroad). A child or mentally incompetent person, however, who killed him- or herself was not considered a felo de se and was not punished post-mortem for his or her actions. The term is not commonly used in modern legal practice.

Not sure if they were burried at a crossroads etc, so with help dug this out:

According to the "National index of parish registers, vol. 1: General sources of births, marriages and deaths before 1837," by D.J. Steel (Phillimore for the Society of Genealogists, 1976), an Act of 1823 "abolished the custom of burial at the crossroads and provided that the body should be buried [in the churchyard] between nine and twelve at night without any religious rites. This statute has been repealed by the Interments (Felo de se) Act 1882, which provides that a body may be buried in any way authorized by the Burial Laws Amendment Act 1880, i.e. either without any religious service or with such Christian and orderly religious service at the grave as the person having charge of the body thinks fit."

Hence their last request "to be buried together" may have happened, but at least it should not have been a "shameful burial". Maybe they werent black sheep, if someone can place this in a more appropriate section, please do.

Ah well, sad old world isnt it, now I better look at the jokes section.

cheers folks
Brian

[busyglen]

I've also seen someone who had committed suicide shown as a Lunatic, presumably because they were not of sound mind at the time. Also they were usually buried in unconsecrated ground, as it was deemed a sin to have taken one's own life.

Glenys

[suedent]

Inquests often found people who had committed suicide to have "not been of sound mind at the time of their death". This was considered to be a lesser evil, it was an attempt to spare the feelings of any surviving family members.

[busyglen]

That's a much better way of putting it Sue, and one which they still use today I believe.

Glenys

[Sandyhall]

I have a relation in my tree who committed suicide by jumping in the river and drowning herself, on the death cert. it say she drowned whilst of unsound mind but she was really drunk (inquest report) after reading your message it made me ring up to find out where she was buried.
Sandy

[brianb]

I do hope my original message never upset anyone, not my intention at all, rather I wanted to let people know things HAD improved a long time ago (when I looked up "felo de se" it upset me, just glad the rules changed when they did, and I was glad to be able to find that fact out).
Regards
Brian

[joette]

Yes & I do believe that if you failed in your suicide attempt you could be prosecuted for attempting it-even up to the 1900's I think(under English Law anyway).

That is why there is such a stigma attached to a suicide or attempt & why people often went to great lengths to cover it up.
Any clue as to why they had such a pact?? What ages were they? I am just being nosey.
I do know personally the impact & devastation that suicide brings to a family.

[Jan1954]

Inquests often found people who had committed suicide to have "not been of sound mind at the time of their death". This was considered to be a lesser evil, it was an attempt to spare the feelings of any surviving family members.

Two of my great, great grandfathers committed suicide and both of them had "whilst of unsound mind" on their death certificates. One was in 1874 and the other in 1923.

Whilst I have the newspaper details of the inquest of 1923 one, and an inkling as to why he did such a thing, the one in 1874 is still a mystery. |shakehead

[Irene Hall]

Not only was it considered a sin, everything that person owned was forfeited - and I mean everything! Wives and kids were left with nothing but the clothes they stood up in!! Totally destitute!

I too know the heartache suicide brings, having had a brother and a nephew (son of the former) suicide.

Irene

[AnnB]

One of my gt grandfathers committed "suicide by hanging whilst suffering from temporary insanity" in 1890. He was only 39 and his wife was 3 months pregnant with my grandfather (they had five other children).

Ann

[busyglen]

Brian, don't worry about it.....you will come across lots of things on this forum, which can touch the lives of many people....it is part of life. Sometimes it can be upsetting, and sometimes it helps to know that there were other people that went through the same thing. Also, this subject `is' part of our family history, so even if you hadn't raised this point, someone else would probably have done so further down the line.

Glenys

[busyglen]

Irene, I'm sorry, that's so sad!

Glenys

[Jan1954]

One of my gt grandfathers committed "suicide by hanging whilst suffering from temporary insanity" in 1890. He was only 39 and his wife was 3 months pregnant with my grandfather (they had five other children).

Ann

Similar situation to my 1874 one. He cut his throat, leaving his widow with 6 children under the age of 10. He was 42.

This thread is really sad...

[AnnB]

Similar situation to my 1874 one. He cut his throat, leaving his widow with 6 children under the age of 10. He was 42.

This thread is really sad...

Very sad, but it really brings home to me how hard life must have been for some of our ancestors. In my gt grandfather's case, he was working a rented farm and had had a couple of years of very poor harvests. He also suffered from terrible arthritis which meant he found it very difficult to walk, and, with six other mouths to feed, it appears he just couldn't cope.

Ann

[Jan1954]

Very sad, but it really brings home to me how hard life must have been for some of our ancestors.....
Ann

Very hard. It's okay doing this genealogy lark, finding new ancestors, their basic details like bmd & baptism but, unless you stop to think and try to imagine what their lives were like, all you are doing is collecting names...

You don't find out about the people who, if it weren't for them, you wouldn't exist and be following this wonderful, absorbing "hobby" (way of life!) :D

[Irene Hall]

Yes it was a bit rough. My brother left a wife and six kids. The eldest followed suit two years later.

I was as anger as hell with my brother for years. Still don't know why he did it! Thats the hard part!!!


Irene

[Jan1954]

Irene,

|hug|

Jan

[Mutley]

It is hard enough to accept a death but very difficult for most of us to understand a suicide. That they choose to leave behind the people they love is so hard to come to terms with.
There is always the feeling that we could have prevented it, when probably we could not. That we are at fault, when we probably are not...

My heart goes out to all who see no other way out and to all those who have to pick up the pieces after. Also to the unsuspecting that order a death certificate and are shocked to find a suicide as the cause of death.

Ours not to reason why....

[brianb]

Yes & I do believe that if you failed in your suicide attempt you could be prosecuted for attempting it-even up to the 1900's I think(under English Law anyway).

That is why there is such a stigma attached to a suicide or attempt & why people often went to great lengths to cover it up.
Any clue as to why they had such a pact?? What ages were they? I am just being nosey.
I do know personally the impact & devastation that suicide brings to a family.


Hi folks

yes its a tough life now, with so much more support, years ago that want in place and as Jan1954 says, we do not want just to build up a list of names, rather than to dig and see what type of lives these ancestors lived, and thus understand things better. We will never know many aspects, but can try to find some.

As for my family in 1888, above, he was 26, she was 18, on the river bank, they each left a note to their family in ink, and a note in pencil in her handwriting for "whoever finds us", in which she blames his brother and her sister for the need to take their lives, before tying themselves together with her belt and two hankies.

I was able to find out in a brief report in the P.I.P in the British Library online, and Somerset library services were extreemely helpful and then copied me the full local newspaper report of the inquest, in which his letter to the family was read out, telling them who should have what of his personal things with ".... but my brother Harry shall not have a single article". The inquest seems to have been held the evening of the day the bodies were found.

Thus, BMD etc gave me details of his death (when etc), but a chance find on the internet has given me so much more, while the explanation on felo de se on my first posting was also from the helpful Somerset staff.

Yes, my wife and I were upset about this incident, but it tells us so much more than names and dates doesnt it.

Take care folks, and happy hunting.

regards

Brian

[ET in the USA]

Yes & I do believe that if you failed in your suicide attempt you could be prosecuted for attempting it-even up to the 1900's I think(under English Law anyway).

After reading this thread yesterday, it was interesting that last night we watched a DVD of Foyle's War - set during WWII.

A women filled her pockets with rocks and walked out into the sea. She didn't drown. She was found on the beach by the home guard and taken
to hospital. The police Chief Inspector (Mr. Foyle, who also was her Godfather & therefore knew her family) came to the hospital and the sister was talking about sin, etc, then she asked the police "are you going to arrest her?" I was surprised that even as late as 1930 something, it was still an arrestable offense.

[suedent]

After reading this thread yesterday, it was interesting that last night we watched a DVD of Foyle's War - set during WWII.

A women filled her pockets with rocks and walked out into the sea. She didn't drown. She was found on the beach by the home guard and taken
to hospital. The police Chief Inspector (Mr. Foyle, who also was her Godfather & therefore knew her family) came to the hospital and the sister was talking about sin, etc, then she asked the police "are you going to arrest her?" I was surprised that even as late as 1930 something, it was still an arrestable offense.

It was illegal until the Suicide Act of 1961.