View Full Version : British Subject, Halifax, AMERICA
15-01-2008, 6:13 PM
help! my WILLIAM GEORGE MALCOM (MALCOLM) born about 1823, has given the above in the 1851 census for Scotland. Please can any one help me to just where this would be.
1841 he is listed as born in England
1851 as British subject,America
Many thanks, Marion
15-01-2008, 10:13 PM
Was he in the military, or connected to them formally in some way? Only, if he was in North America (Canada OR the US) in 1861, he ought to have been counted in the *local* censuses there. I am curious that he is showing up in the Scottish census (?) and would only expect to see that if he was with the British garison stationed over here somewhere.
Having said that, there are a number of Halifax's -- the main one I am aware of :D is in Nova Scotia, Canada. But apparently there are other ones in *America* (read *USA), in Vermont and Massachussetts, for example.
I would start with Halifax, Nova Scotia, where there was a large British garrison and British settlement from early on, and I would enquire with the local family history societies (they have qute a nice network page.. http://nsgna.ednet.ns.ca/) and/or the Dartmouth Family History Centres (the LDS CHurch), here: http://nsgna.ednet.ns.ca/fhc/index.html
and try to get someone to do a lookup for you. They may have indexed some of the local census films, or if not, there may be SKS who will look it up for you.
16-01-2008, 2:23 PM
Hi Mary Anne, many thanks for your helpful comments, on the 1841 Scotland census William George Malcom's father was Robert Malcom born Scotland but his mother was also born 'England' so perhaps a trader that married abroad or as you say, in the military.
Will have a look at those links and try Nova Scotia, Canada. Best wishes, Marion
17-01-2008, 1:54 AM
I'm not familiar with the census records for Sccotland but are you sure the 1841 listed the place of birth no - other UK 1841 does. They just state born in COUNTY or out of COUNTY. What is actually shown on the Census Document?
Regarding the 1851 and 1861 - there is nothing odd regarding the birth entries they are both normal ways of listing out of COUNTRY births. There are at least two Halifax's on the eastern seaboard of the US - North Carolina and Massachusetts
I believe that there where either Federal or State censuses taken in the US prior to 1841 and also BMD records I think by Counties It may be worthwhile looking into these sources
17-01-2008, 11:53 AM
They just state born in COUNTY or out of COUNTY.
Sorry Ken. The England & Wales returns also indicated I (Ireland), S (Scotland) and F (Foreign parts).
With the obvious amendment, I think this was also the position in Scotland.
18-01-2008, 5:27 PM
Oop's what was I thinking of you are absolutly correct Peter my only excuse is to blame it onto a senior moment!
What I should have said is the 1841 is the only oddball has Marion checked the actual image for the 1841 entry
My apologies to Marion if I caused any problem
A Penitent Limey in Canada
19-01-2008, 8:32 AM
Thanks for all the help,
in 1841 census for Scotland, my William George Malcom is living at South Fort Street, North Leith with Robert Malcom (father?) born Scotland 1782, Catherine (mother?) born 1796 England as is William is born 1823.
The 1851 gives him as married at different address but Halifax, America British Subject.
The 1861 he is recorded in Greenock as born America.
I cannot find him in1871 although he was in Hartlepool/Stockton (Durham) about this time or may have gone back to Scotland when his wife dies here 1869.
I have a William George Malcolm in Leith Workhouse, Scotland in 1881 birth date about 4 years out, same boilermaker trade but born England again? May be the same as he is then recorded back in Stockton for his death in 1887 as having paralysis 14 years so could not work.
20-01-2008, 8:29 PM
Hi again Marion
Re Why William would be shown as born in England in the 1841
Out of curiosity I obtained an image of a page from a typical Scottish 1841 Enumeration Book and compared that to a page from the English version and found that there is a subtle difference which could account for Williams birthplace being shown as England I also looked up the instruction to Enumerators but could not locate the other important document which is the instructions for the Scottish Schedules
Both books record the age, sex and occupation of each person. Ages 16 and above are rounded down to the nearest 5yrs i.e. a 16 year old is listed as being 15, 27 = 25 30 =30 in accordance with instructions (however often in England the true age has been entered by the Enumerator - Scottish Enumerators may have acted similarly – in the Scottish image I viewed they were all rounded). For persons under the age of 15 the actual age is given in both versions. Relationships are not recorded in both versions
There are two columns in each version for the “Where Born” entries and the headings are different The Scottish version headings are:
“If Born in Scotland state whether in County or otherwise”
“Whether Foreigner, or whether born in England or Ireland”
And for England & Wales the headings read
“Whether born in same County”
“Whether born in Scotland, Ireland or Foreign Parts”
(In the English version County means Census County and is entered as Yes or No)
Note the difference - in the case of England you are simply being asked if your place of birth is or not in the census county of England & Wales, or was in Ireland, Scotland, or Foreign parts - Nothing to do with nationality. In the case of Scotland it appears that you are being asked if born in Scotland which county if not in Scotland were you born in Ireland or England or are you a Foreigner - which is not the same question.
Only a peek at the actual Instructions on the 1841 Scottish Schedules will reveal how this question was intended to be answered in Scotland which hazarding a guess I think would be the similar to that for England i.e. Were you born in foreign parts, England or Ireland?
I put this to you and others who care to comment –
If the birth was anywhere offshore then the parents and/or the Enumerator (and/or the District Office or London if there has been an overwrite or fill-in of a blank entry) may have been faced with a dilemma depending whether or not the birth was registered as a British Subject and how and where it was registered
His birth may have been registered in London England under one of the Military, Navy, Home, Foreign, Colonial, Offices, etc depending who had jurisdiction over the place and registration of birth at that time. Various records of offshore registrations of British births date bake to 1760. The Trading Companies with Headquarters in London may also have kept records
Registered or not having one or more English (or Scottish?) parents under British law at the time I think he would not have been classed as a Foreigner (as indicated in subsequent census)
I doubt that he would have been considered as being born in Scotland unless his birth was registered in a Scottish District or parish however birth registration in Scotland did not start until 1855 well after the 1841 Census (unless Scotland had some jurisdiction over off-shore births which I think not)
I doubt that he would have been considered as being born in Ireland unless his birth was registered in an Irish District or Parish however non-catholic birth registration did not start in Ireland until 1864 (unless Ireland had some jurisdiction over off-shore births at that time which I think was not the case)
My logic tends to opt toward showing England as the birth place - however I doubt that Williams situation was/is unique what is the experience or opinions of others?
Marion have you seen the images of these three enumerations or is the data from transcripts as the birth place may have been left blank and England may have been subsequently entered by others
22-01-2008, 1:19 PM
Many thanks for all your help. I have only seen the copies of census for North Leith (Midlothian) from Ancestry.co.uk but I have also seen in South Leith another Donald Malcom born about 1802 and where born---Foreign Parts.
I cannot seem to pin down any brothers/sisters for William George Malcom, although the 'father' Robert would have been about 41 when William was born and Catherine 'mother' about 27.
I do not know where the family was before 1841 and both 'parents' are not in the 1851 Scotland census so could have died.
I wonder if the original transcripts are available to view?
Best wishes from a sunny but chilly London.
10-02-2008, 2:25 PM
Thank you to everybody. I may have (really hope), found a marriage to the parents of William George Malcom it is in Halifax Nova Scotia and is a promise of marriage as he was in the 1st Batallion Royal Artillery, 1822.
Thankyou for help.
11-02-2008, 1:18 AM
Great news, Marion!|woohoo| Crossing fingers!!
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