Waterloo

[redbert]

I have discovered my G/G/G/father was a Trumpet/Major with the 16th Light Dragoons at the Battle of Waterloo, where can i find out more information about the 16th L/Dragoons, & his Musical back-ground, is there any body out there that is knowledgable with the WATERLOO Battle Thanks Redbert

[Geoffers]

The 16th (Queen's) Lt Dragoons was commanded by Lt.Col James HAY) and was part of the 4th Cavalry Brigade commanded by Major General Sir John Vandeleur.

There are lots of detailed books available in bookshops and libraries which will tell you all about the battle. Sarch online and you wll find details too.

Have you looked for your chap's military record?

[redbert]

thanks Geoffers for your reply, most grateful, as for researching his record,as i am a novice to all this, where would i start to LOOK would that Reg/t the 16th L/Drs still be in exsistance , would there still be service/records as this matter was over 200 years ago, any advise would be welcome Thanks redbert

[Geoffers]

The records are likely to be held at The National Archives (TNA) at Kew.
Have a browse of their research guides (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/researchguidesindex.asp) scroll down to 'B' and look at the links prefixed 'British Army'

Also, try searching TNA's catalogue (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/default.asp)as his record is likely to be indivudally indexed.
In the name or phrase field, enter his surname only to bgein with
For the dates try entering 1780-1840
In the Department or series code, enter WO

You'll need to look for records that have a reference prefixed WO97 or WO121 in any list of hits

If you get stuck, post his name and I'll see I can (fingers crossed) guide you through a search.

(Also try the Waterloo Roll - which is available on findmypast)

If you find a hit on TNA's catalogue, you can order this online - TNA will let you know the cost.

[neil1821]

Hi,
What's your ancestor's name?

The 16th Light Dragoons (later 16th Queens Lancers) don't exist any more under that name.
Nowadays they're part of the Queens Royal Lancers.

http://www.regiments.org/regiments/uk/cav/D16L.htm

[redbert]

thanks geoffers & neil for the info, very grateful for your help & advise
neil my ancestors name was CHARLES KING I am not 100% certain but i think he was a Captain???? however i have discovered through googling i found a Book titled BRITISH MUSICAL BIOGRAPHY 1897 by James Duff Brown who notates that Charles King was a TRUMPET/Major at the Battle of Waterloo, maybe i can find more about him by way of his musical history?????
again thanks, i would welcome any comments that you may have
Cheers Bert W-King

[Geoffers]

Waterloo Roll Call
Charles KING, Captain, 16th Light Dragoons, with regt since 18 Feb 1813

Notes include:
"Was made brig-maj. to the 4th Brigade after the battle of Waterloo. 10 years later at the siege of Bhurtpore, assisted by Capt Luard and two orderliesof the 16th Lancers, captured a Rajah. K.H. Lost an arm at El Bodon in the Par.war, when Lieut in the 11th Lt.Dgns. D. at Dublin, 5th July, 1844."

(El Bodon was a skirmish in the Peninsualr War, fought on 25 Sept 1811)

The Peninsular Medal Roll shows a Charles KING, Serjeant - 7th Lt Dragoons. Rec'd medal with one clasp 'Orthes'

Hart's Army List 1840 - Recruiting Staff - Inspecting Field Officers
33 years full pay. 2 3/4 years half pay. Charles KING, K.H. Cornet 9 May 05; Lieut 30 Jan 06; Capt 18 Feb 1813; Major 2 Jun 25; Lieut-Col 18 Oct 1827.

There is quite a diffrence between a Trumpet Major and a Captain, do make sure that this is all the same person.

[Peter Goodey]

Surely Trumpet Majors are not commissioned officers?

[redbert]

Thanks again Geoffers most grateful, your email is most informative, i think the Sergeant C.King of th 7 L/t Dragoons is more likely to be my MAN, i have some-one in LONDON who can get to KEW, forgive for being cheeky Geof, is it possilble you can inform me what Files to look for Thank You Redbert

P.S. I assume he would have ATTESTATION forms??????????
i will be researching Military Music Bands, to find my 3 G/grand-dads as they were all BANDMASTERs with various Reg/t from the 1800s to 1900s, there appears to be a strong IRISH connection Cheers Redbert

[Geoffers]

There are two sets of papers which you might try, have a look at these research guides to understand what they will give you:

Discharge Papers (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=14)

Pension Records (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=15)

You seem a little confused, mentioning that your ancestor was a Trumpet Major, a Captain and a Sergeant. With a name such as KING, which occurs quite frequently, I do not think you can say that any of them was defintiely yours and so looking for his papers may be a pointless exercise.

Could we come forward a generation, or to the point where you can definitely prove your ancestry by emans of birth certificates. Who is the earliest ancestor for whom you have a birth certificate and what does tht certificate record as being his father and his father's occupation?

[neil1821]

Sgt Charles King, 7th Light Dragoons was also at Waterloo, still with the same regiment.
So there are definitely at least 2 Charles King's here.

Neil

[redbert]

Yes i can come forward starting with my father

Bertram WILTON-KING Born: INDIA 1913
His Father
Bertram KING Born: INDIA 1885
His Father
James Charles KING Born: Birmingham 1848 Married: Gertrude WILTON 1884!!!!

James was a BANDMASTER with the 11th hussars & 8th KRI Hussars having trained at KNELLER HALL MILITARY MUSIC ACADAMY 1870-1872 & 1880-1882
His Father
James KING Born: Dublin 1809 also a BANDMASTER enlisted with the ROYAL STAFF CORPS aged 13 1821 then the 5th Dragoons medically discharged 1850
becoming a PROFESSOR of MUSIC residing in DERBY , i have his ATTESTATION & Medical Discharge Papers, !!!!!!!!!
While googling i discovered the Book BRITISH MUSICAL BIOGRAPHY 1897 By James D Brown that mentioned in an article the James King above was & i Quote from the BOOK: He was present at the Battle of Waterloo with his Father (alas no Christian Name) who was a TRUMPET/MAJOR (alas no mention of Reg/t) he died Sept 22 1888, that ties in with my data to date,
as James & Charles are common in the KING family i assumed the James you came up with was more likely to be my man being a sergeant, as the 2 previous KINGs had both been sergeants!!!!!!!!!!, sorry to have been so long-winded, hope you can understand my Prattling ?????? Cheers Redbert
Reading Neils email he is of the opinion that there are 2 Charles KINGs!!!!!!!!!
with the 7th dragoons, as you say all a bit confusing?????, It appears to me geof you are well versed with the MILITARY ARCHIVES, so i would welcome your comments & advise Thanks

[redbert]

Hi Neil thanks for your comments, so you think there are 2 CHARLES KINGs, nothings straight forward with my Family, do you have any further data ??????
as i have had an email from a chap, whos come up with 3 KINGs

Charles KING Captain 16th L/t Dragoons

James KING Private in Captain Vernors Troop !!!!!!

Finlay KING Sergeant/Major No Reg/t apart from he died in 1842

No mention of the 7th L/t Dragoons?????????

Redbert cheers

[neil1821]

I'm getting a bit confused here! To quote from you:

"James KING Born: Dublin 1809 also a BANDMASTER enlisted with the ROYAL STAFF CORPS aged 13 1821 then the 5th Dragoons medically discharged 1850
becoming a PROFESSOR of MUSIC residing in DERBY , i have his ATTESTATION & Medical Discharge Papers, !!!!!!!!!
While googling i discovered the Book BRITISH MUSICAL BIOGRAPHY 1897 By James D Brown that mentioned in an article the James King above was & i Quote from the BOOK: He was present at the Battle of Waterloo with his Father (alas no Christian Name) who was a TRUMPET/MAJOR (alas no mention of Reg/t) he died Sept 22 1888, that ties in with my data to date,
as James & Charles are common in the KING family i assumed the James you came up with was more likely to be my man being a sergeant, as the 2 previous KINGs had both been sergeants!!!!!!!!!!, sorry to have been so long-winded, hope you can understand my Prattling ?????? Cheers Redbert"

Up to now we've been talking about CHARLES King, not James. I don't see how the James King you mention here can have been at the Battle of Waterloo, as he was age 6 at the time and indeed only enlisted in 1821 apparently!
There were AT LEAST two Charles King's at Waterloo, I haven't searched the entire muster. And I think there must have been plenty more than 3 men there with the surname King, I'll check this evening.

[Geoffers]

James Charles KING Born: Birmingham 1848 Married: Gertrude WILTON 1884!!!!

Something in all of this doesn't seem to add up and it's difficult to pin it down - it may be that the 1897 book you mention has suffered from poor research (as Neil has pointed out - a 6 year old at Waterloo??). In the meantime, let's go back to some basic detail and make sure that nothing has gone wrong there:

1. From the marriage certificate for James Charles KING
a) What is the age and marital condition of the groom?
b) What is the name and occupation of the father?

2. From the birth certificate for James Charles KING
a) What is his father's name and occupation?
b) In particular - what is the name and maiden name of his mother?

Make sure that all of the above fits with what you have already posted.........then..........

3. Can you locate James Charles KING in the 1851 census? If so could you transcribe the entry on this thread. Where and when was the mother born? Any siblings - when and where born?

Does this all tie in with the above birth and marriage certificates and what you have found out about a James KING who was born in Dublin and enlisted in the army?

There ought to be some wills for this family somewhere and these may provide important information. I hasten to add that I'm not trying to tear apart all your hard work, just trying to ensure that you are pursuing the right course.

[Geoffers]

Further to my last

I see that the GRO death index, confirms the death of a James Charles KING in Derby RD, 1888 aged 79

and that the 1881 census confirms that James Charles (then aged 71) was born in Dublin. There is a son, William aged 46 (bn c.1835) - as this birth was whilst James Charles was in the army, the birth of William may be registered in either the Regimental Registers or Army Chaplains' returns, which would allow you to get a birth certificate and the maiden name of the mother (Elizabeth, in 1881 aged 65, bn Newcastle).

Do the attestation papers for James KING (bn Dublin 1809) record him as James or James Charles? Have you found a baptism for a James Charles KING in Dublin?

[neil1821]

OK, I've had a chance to go through the Waterloo musters FOR THE CAVALRY ONLY so far, and there are 18 men by the name of King:

Pte James King, 2nd Life Guards
Pte William King, 2nd Life Guards
Pte William King, 1st Dragoons (No.1 troop)
Pte William King, 1st Dragoons (No.3 troop)
Pte Robert King, 1st Dragoons (No.7 troop)
Pte James King, 2nd Dragoons (Verner's troop)
Pte Richard King, 6th Dragoons (Brown's troop)
Pte James King, 6th Dragoons (Douglas' troop)
Sgt Charles King, 7th Hussars
Pte James King, 10th Hussars (No.5 troop)
Pte John King, 12th Light Dragoons (Wallace's troop)
Trumpeter ? King, 13th Light Dragoons
Pte George King, 13th Light Dragoons
Captain Charles King, 16th Light Dragoons
Pte James King, 18th Hussars (Luard's troop)
Trumpet Major William King, 23rd Light Dragoons
Sgt Benjamin King, 23rd Light Dragoons (No.4 troop)
Trumpeter William King jnr, 23rd Light Dragoons (No.6 troop)

Note in particular the Trumpet Major and Trumpeter (his son?) in the 23rd LD.
Any stories of a trumpet-major named King at Waterloo MUST refer to this chap.

[redbert]

Sorry it would appear i have confused matters, i will try to put things right,
if i write the Full section from the BRITISH MUSICAL BIOGRAPHY 1897 it might make things clearer as follows

"KING. James, composer & bandmaster of the 5th Dragoons, was born about 1809. When only six years old he was present at the Battle of Waterloo with his father, who was TRUMPET/MAJOR. he died in DERBY Sept 22 1888. Composer of MUSIC for MILITARY BANDs".

That is the full notation, i dont think the author was suggesting J/K was actually involved in the MILITARY action, merely stating that perhaps the family were Billited with his father, as i understand that families traveled with the Reg/ts in those days, please correct me geof if i am wrong !!!!!!!!!!!

As you can see from the notation there is no mention of the fathers Name or Reg/t, i emailed a friend attaching the notation, & they came up with 3 possible names "CHARLES KING (Captain-16th L/t Dragoons), JAMES KING (Private, in Captain Vernors Troop!!!!!) & a FINLAY KING (Serg/t/Major ??????)
it was my friend that suggested CHARLES KING could me my ancestor??????
So i think i might have muddled things up for you & Neil SORRY!!!!!!!
As for your questions answer to 1 (A) The age of James Charles King listed on his M/cert is 35 1 (B) Fathers Name: JAMES no Profession?????
2 (A) i have not got his B/cert yet!!!!, therefore can not name Father or occupation?? 2 (B) His mothers NEE name was HEANEY born Newcastle
3 As for the CENSUS i have not got 1851, as i think the family were in Ireland that year, However i have the 1861,1871,1881 & 1891, the 1861,1871 & 1881 James KING is Head of The family Muscian there are 5 other siblings, e,g, the 1861 CENSUS JAMES KING: Head; Age: 52: MUSCIAN: DUBLIN: ELIZABETH KING: Wife: Age: 45: NEWCASTLE: WILLIAM KING: Son: Age: 19: MUSCIAN: DUBLIN: EMILY KING: Daug: Age: 15: NOTTINGHAM: JAMES KING: Son: Age: 12: Scholar: BIRMINGHAM: ALFRED KING: Son: Age: 10: Scholar: LONGFORD Ireland: EDMUND KING: Son: Age: 8: Scholar: LONGFORD IRELAND this is consistant with all census, well geof hope you can make sense of all this now, all the data i have appears to LINK up.
SORRY for the confusion?????????? Redbert

[redbert]

P.S. Geof forgot to add on his Service Record he is named as JAMES KING Born 1809 DUBLIN, also his ATTESTATION & his MEDICAL DISCHARGE dated 7 Nov 1850 with the 5th Dragoons SERGEANT MUSCIAN at LONGFORD IRELAND

He enlisted with the ROYAL STAFF CORPS 26th June 1921 ATTESTED 30th June 1821 Aged 13 Private BUGLE-BOY

What appears to be more confusing is that both the JAMES's had the second or used the Name CHARLES ????????, any idea's ?????????
redbert

[neil1821]

Hi Redbert,
I suppose it's fair enough to say families would have been present with the troops in the Low Countries/Belgium in 1815, but that entry from the British Musical Biography says "when only six years old he was present at the Battle...." which I can't believe (not at the battle itself).

In fact, I'm not sure how much of that entry on James King I would trust. Looking into it more, if he enlisted in 1821 and was discharged in 1850, this info doesn't fit with him being in the 5th Dragoons who didn't exist at this time (they were disbanded in 1799 and only reformed in 1858)
http://www.regiments.org/regiments/uk/cav/D05L.htm

The puzzle deepens!

Oh by the way, Finlay King (the 3rd name that was suggested to you by someone else) was Sgt-Major of the 42nd Highlanders (Black Watch). Why were those 3 names in particular considered as possibles?

[Geoffers]

i emailed a friend attaching the notation, & they came up with 3 possible names "CHARLES KING (Captain-16th L/t Dragoons), JAMES KING (Private, in Captain Vernors Troop!!!!!) & a FINLAY KING (Serg/t/Major ??????)

This is form the partial list, which can be found on a pay-per-view site

it was my friend that suggested CHARLES KING could me my ancestor??????

I think this is too important to go much further on an suggestion.

In your shoes, I would put some effort into trying to locate the birth certificate for the chap born in Brum in 1848. His dad should still have been in the army then (if it ties in with other information) and keep your fingers crossed that it gives his dad's name and then a rank and regiment.

His mothers NEE name was HEANEY born Newcastle
3 As for the CENSUS i have not got 1851, as i think the family were in Ireland that year

Fair enough - odd the trips over to Ireland and up to Edinburgh, unless this was with work. I wonder if any directories exist for those places and if they mention any KINGs resident?

I would also be interested in a will for James Charles who popped his clogs in 1888; on the remote offchance it mentions anyone from his generation.

First step, I think is to try and locate the birth certificate in Brum (civil GRO or in regimental registers). A passing thought, but if dad was still in the army, maybe his wife was left behind in England, could she turn up in 1851 with any HEANEY relatives?????

Lastly, Neil provided you with three William KINGs who were trumpeters and so may fit in with the book's information.
Try going to TNA's catalogue (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/search.asp)
In the word of phrase field, enter this 'as written' - william king AND dragoon
In the year range (very much a guess here), enter 1770 to 1830
In the department or series code, enter WO

from the hits you get, could any at all match Neil's list?

If you do not find a birth certificate for James Charles, you might consider it worth a punt getting the record.

If you do not get any hits on TNA, try changing the search period, or the word or phrase. If you change the word or phrase, try something like

king AND longford
or
king AND 23rd AND dragoons
in building up the query, always use AND in capital letter
avoid searching just king AND dragoons 'cos this will bring up all the KL units.

[redbert]

Thats brilliant neil, very grateful for your time & efforts 18 up to now !!!!!
i had the same problem with James Charles KING in INDIA, eventually found him in MEERUT Cem/ty in 1888 died aged 41????

As you say the 2 Williams are very interesting, i think these 2 are hopefully my ancestors, as it was stated TRUMPET/MAJOR in that article, the other Trumpeter is a BONUS perhaps, will have to get some one to KEW for more research, if you have any advise where to look, I would be most grateful
Many,Many Thanks Redbert.

[neil1821]

I don't see much point checking the Waterloo musters further right now as there's no such rank as trumpet-major in the infantry.

I would echo what Geoffers has said earlier, don't base anything on suggestions or assumptions or you could easily follow false trails. Before worrying about his father, if it were me, I would concentrate on James King and make sure the info on him is watertight.

- it still doesn't add up that he was 5th Dragoons pre 1850 as the regiment didn't exist at this time!!!! Could it mean 5th Dragoon Guards (a different regiment altogether)?

- some independent confirmation of that article would be good as I don't trust it on its own

Neil

[Geoffers]

- some independent confirmation of that article would be good as I don't trust it on its own
Neil

I wholly agree with Neil. Something doesn't quite add up and I think it is the book that is causing the problems. As Neil has said, get some confirmation and then it comes back into play.

I had the same problem with James Charles KING in INDIA, eventually found him in MEERUT Cem/ty in 1888 died aged 41????

The Army Death index 1881-1955, records a James KING aged 41, died at Meerut in 1888

[redbert]

Hello again i have to hold up my hand again, having read James ATTESTATION & Medical Discharge, it was the 5th Dragoon GUARDS he was with, again i just took for granted it was the DRAGOONs silly me, so your concerns were CORRECT, i am SORRY again for all the confusion

Yes geof i have JAMES CHARLEs KING dying in 1888, serving with the 8th KRI Hussars,also a BANDMASTER , I will be sending for his Birth/Cert Tomorrow,this is James King the COMPOSER/ PROFESSORS Son,

I have a researcher doing some research for me next week maybe she can uncover some facts??????,

As for the article, forgive for me sounding sceptical, am i to understand there was no such RANK as TRUMPET/MAJOR

I think i will have to do research on MILITARY MUSIC for the rank of muscians
any ideas ??????? Thanks again Geof Redbert, i hope i have wasted yours & neils time, as feel i have mislead you ????????

[neil1821]

Hi again,
5th Dragoon Guards makes much more sense!!

No, you're certainly not wasting our time. We're just a couple of old skeptics, that's all!!!!

Re the rank of trumpet-major, to keep things simple in this era the cavalry, horse artillery and a few others (eg Royal Wagon Train) had trumpeters. The infantry and foot artillery had drummers instead. Trumpet-majors (cavalry) and drum-majors (infantry) were senior NCOs (roughly equivalent to Sgt-Major). So the rank existed, but only in the cavalry basically.

[Geoffers]

Yes geof i have JAMES CHARLEs KING dying in 1888, serving with the 8th KRI Hussars,also a BANDMASTER , I will be sending for his Birth/Cert Tomorrow,this is James King the COMPOSER/ PROFESSORS Son,

Excellent, do let us know how you get on.

As for the article, forgive for me sounding sceptical, am i to understand there was no such RANK as TRUMPET/MAJOR

My understanding is that there was such a rank in Cavalry regiments.

I think i will have to do research on MILITARY MUSIC for the rank of muscians any ideas ?

Sorry, I've never had to look into army musicians

i hope i have wasted yours & neils time, as feel i have mislead you ????????

No problem to me; it's just proof that you do really need to be careful to ensure that you don't follow the wrong line (which is my main concern) and that you need to read documents carefully - a single word can make a lot of difference. You need to ask yourself the right questions, in order to get the answer as to how to continue research - and these forums are a great place for pushing ideas back and forward - it's all a learning process.

The book may be correct - but unless sources are provided for information which you can double-check, it must remain doubtful.

Do keep us updated with how you get on.

fare y'well tergerther

[redbert]

Hi i appreciate all your advise & comments, you are correct to state "Read Documents" very carefully, i do tend to rush things without fully digesting the full details, i have done this in the past, gone back & studied things thoroughly, & find i have to give my-self a kick up the back-side, as i have not fully understood whats written, i put down to the OLD grey cells ???????

If i may be so bold to ask Geof & Neil have you any Data concerning the ROYAL STAFF CORPS my understanding is that this Reg/t started approx
1812-1833, however there is not much information on the INTER-NET, found one article in New/Zealand of all places, alas not very infomative??????

Have you ever had a read of the Book "IN Search of a FORLORN HOPE Vol 1&2
By John.M. Kitzmiller" its a guide to locating British Reg/t & their Records
1640-WW1 it is very GOOD, it also has a Microfiche Section that gives details of Garrisons, Barracks, Redoubts, etc etc.
I will have to Borrow this Microfiche from the Library, so i can perhaps find where my relatives Reg/ts were, for the years they were in the Military ????

These books are very informative, for example i have found the 5th Dragoon Guards (I beleive there nickname was the OLD FARMERS) were billeted in Birmingham 1848-1850 where James Charles King (the BANDMASTER) was born???
Am i correct to say that the 5th Dragoon Guards were the (Princess Charlotte of Wales) Reg/t, the reason i ask is that in the book it gives the information where the DRAGOONs recruited their troops from it states CHESTER & BRISTOL, what is ironic is that i live in CHESTER !!!!!!!!!!!!!
I also found a lot of information concerning JAMES CHARLES KING (the BANDMASTER) in the book "The History of British Military Bands" which there are 3 Vols however this is only for the years 1857 to present, most of the information is from the Military Music Acadamy at KNELLER HALL where i have found J/C/King trained twice 1870-1872 & 1880-1882, nothing relates to his father James, as KNELLER HALL was opened in 1857, where he would have trained, i have not got a clue ?????????, as i understand before KNELLER HALL was established, Bandmasters were civillians, & paid by the OFFICERS of the Reg/ts !!!!!!!!!!!, it is obvious to me that Geof & Neil are very knowledgable with MILITARY matters, but does this knowledge include MILITARY BANDs ?????????, i would welcome any advise if so !!!!!!!!, as soon as i get James Charles Kings Birth/Cert i will be in touch, hopefully it may give his dads Name & Occupation fingers crossed Thanks again Redbert

[neil1821]

Royal Staff Corps:
Raised in 1798 from tradesmen volunteers from the infantry to provide an engineer corps under direct control of Horse Guards rather than the Board of Ordnance (as were the Royal Engineers and Royal Sappers & Miners). Initially consisted of a headquarters and four companies, it attained battalion size in 1809, though its companies and officers were often employed on detached duties. The rank-and-file, though trained in engineer tasks, were also trained infantry. Their intended duty was as overseers/supervisors of the infantry work parties who did much of the manual labour.
Ranks uniquely were divided into 1st, 2nd and 3rd class privates, and even the latter were paid more than ordinary infantrymen.
Royal Staff Corps officers were employed on duties which overlapped with those of the Royal Engineers and Quartermaster-General's Dept, as engineers, surveyors, bridge-builders, guides etc.

They were responsible for the repair of Alcantara bridge in 1812 and the construction of the bridge of boats across the river Adour in 1813. In England their lasting monument is the Royal Military Canal from Shorncliffe, Kent to Rye, E.Sussex, began in 184 and completed in 1809.

They remained on the army establishment after the Napoleonic Wars serving in various places around the empire until 1837 when their personnel and functions were absorbed into the Royal Engineers and Sappers & Miners.

[redbert]

Thanks Neil, i am going to pick up the ROYAL MILITARY CANAL book from my local library on monday, this might tell more about the R/S/Corps, as there constructed the canal !!!!!!!, do you know of any other BOOKs or places where it might obtain more data?????
Neil i was wondering on JAMES KING Attestation Papers it state he was a PRIVATE Bugle Boy, as you have stated the R/S/Corps were INFANTRY, would they have BUGLER's ????????? silly question i know, i think he would have been used for REVEILLE Yes/No thanks Neil hear from you soon bert

Neil fogive me for my cheek, i have been reading my wife's G/dads Medal/Card that reads as follows Name: ERNEST ROYSTON JAY CORPS: R. Lancs R (which i beleive was the ROYAL LANCASHIRE REG/t) REG/t No: 27592LAB/CORPS ( Which i think was the LABOUR/CORPS REG/t No:447569. his RANK: Private


However on his Attestation Paper, there is a REG/t No: 34673 that does not feature on his Medal/Card, would this be a common practice???????

As his Attestation Papers state he was transfered from 1 East Lancs REG/t
REG/t No: 34673 TO
KINGs OWN ROYAL LANCASHIRE REG/t REG/t No: 27592 11-11-1916

I am further confused as we have a photo of E/R/JAY in the uniform of the
LANCASHIRE FUSILLIERS yet there is no mention of his service with this REG/t on his Medal/Card, would you happen to know if there is a valid reason for the omission, hope you can understand my prattle, soorry to be a pain BERT Cheers

[neil1821]

The Royal Staff Corps were NOT infantry. Although trained as infantry, this was very much a secondary role. Primarily they were an engineer corps. I don't know offhand whether they had buglers, but from the evidence you have (his attestation papers) the answer is yes!

Re Ernest Royston Jay:
- Are you sure about the identification of the photo? Both who it shows and the regiment it shows? Do you have a date for it? Perhaps attach the photo here so we can take a look.

- Medal cards are NOT service records. That was never their function.
Basically they are to indicate medal entitlement and as such only the units relevant to that might be mentioned. They won't tell you a thing about pre-WW1 service for example.
When did he join the East Lancs Regt and did he see any overseas service with them? If not, then again it won't be at all relevant to his medal entitlement.

[redbert]

Hi neil, thanks for the R/S/corps data, as for E/R/Jay i do have a PHOTO that i can send but dont how to attach, i can do it by EMAIL as i have photos on M.P. Navigator 2.0????
I took E/R/Jays photo to my Local Army Museum (The CHeshire Reg/t) they have an archivest who studied the photo & confirmed it was the uniform of the Lancs Fus/rs as for a date No idea, can only assume it must have been prior to his sevice with K/O/R/Lancs
I also sent photo to the Kingsownmuseum, who also confirmed he was attired in the Lancs/Fus uniform, & they suggested he was with the L/F before the K/O/R/L.
As for his Medal entilement the K/O/R/Ls state his medals were not awarded by them but could have been the Labour/Corps !!!!!!!
I have a letter from the Lab/corps historian who states E/R/Jay was in FRANCE Apr/May 1918, no mention of his medals, will have to contact them again!!!!!
I think i must contact the Lancs/Fus & see what i can find out !!
Any of this of a help Neil Bert

[neil1821]

Fair enough, you can email it to me. PM sent
Can you also send me the medal card to have a peek at?
Didn't you say before that you have his attestation papers? Any previous military service should be mentioned on there.

[redbert]

neil can you send your email address again i had a problem with Comp/r
& it wiped your Email info mine is - "wiltonki (at) aol.com"

As for E/R.Jays Attestation papers studying the papers again it is a bit different as it states ARMY FORM B 198
Receipt For Attestation (for insertion in portfolio) !!!!!!!!!!!! does this make any sense !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Bert

[redbert]

thanks geof sorry ops, good job your on the ball, could have got a load of JUNK !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! bert

[redbert]

Hi geof, got J/C/King's B/cert, today, bad news its not my J/C/K as there is no father, mothers name wrong one, therefore will have to go back to drawing board ?????, i think i picked the wrong town !!!!! i choose Warwick, should be BIRMINGHAM !!!!! will have to look again.

However i have another problem. as i was told there are no ATTESTATION Papers for the year J/C/K enlisted 1869 with the 11th Hussars, i know he enlisted in 1869 as i have testimony from Kneller Hall the Military Music Acadamy, who's archivst gave me some breif details of his Army records,
would you know Geof if there are any or a WO Number ??????? Bert

P.S. Is neil O.K as emailed him 3 times but had no reply ?????????? hope all is well Thanks

[Geoffers]

However i have another problem. as i was told there are no ATTESTATION Papers for the year J/C/K enlisted 1869 with the 11th Hussars. would you know Geof if there are any or a WO Number

If you go back to the first page of the thread, you'll see a link to TNA research guides which will tll you about different records that are available. It depends what you want to find out about his service, as you have regiment and year when he joined, you might be looking at Discharge Papers (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=14) or Description Books (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=16) to find out about him.

[redbert]

Thanks geof, after yesterdays BAD news, got the news i wanted i can clarify JAMES CHARLES KING birthright as i have received his Baptism Form 1849 that confirms his fathers Name: James King & Mothers Elizabeth Abode: Ashted Barracks Rank: Sergeant/Major 5th Dragoon Guards this ties up with the information in the book "Forlorn Hope" that places the 5th Dragoon Guards at Birmingham ????
Sorry to pester you , any ideas what i should do now

Is Neil O.K not heard from hope all is well, hope i have not up-set any one !!!

geof been trying to find more about the 23rd light/dragoons, been on a few web-site, that are very sparce with info, some sites state they were at the Battle of Waterloo others say not ?????? do you know anything about this Reg/t, i read a story that the Duke of Wellington took the ROYAL STAFF CORPS to Waterloo with him, but can not find any truth to the story ?????
any thoughts Thanks Bert

[Geoffers]

got the news i wanted i can clarify JAMES CHARLES KING birthright as i have received his Baptism Form 1849 that confirms his fathers Name: James King & Mothers Elizabeth Abode: Ashted Barracks Rank: Sergeant/Major 5th Dragoon Guards

Jolly good, excellent news

any ideas what i should do now

You might try checking the GRO index of births to see if you can tie down a registration and get a birth certificate. Don't forget to check the regimental registers of births as well.

What you do now depends on what you want to try and locate - what would you like to find out?

Is Neil O.K not heard from hope all is well, hope i have not up-set any one !!!

Possibly busy earning a crust?


been trying to find more about the 23rd light/dragoons....any thoughts

The regiments web-site is usually a good source of information.
http://www.regiments.org/deploy/uk/reg-cav/D26.htm
Use a search engine to look for the naval and Military Press, and you might find a book on the regiment.

[redbert]

thanks geoff, will have to re-check for his Birth/cert !!!!!!

Reading the book "The Royal Military Canal" that refers to the Royal Staff Corps, its in this book, that states & i quote :1815 The Royal Staff Corps assists the Duke of Wellington at Waterloo, any ideas where I can get proof
????, any thoughts where i can find out more a book etc etc etc

Geoff do you know any thing about the 1 East Lancashire Reg/t ????????

Thanks for all you help & support Bert

[Geoffers]

Reading the book "The Royal Military Canal" that refers to the Royal Staff Corps, its in this book, that states & i quote :1815 The Royal Staff Corps assists the Duke of Wellington at Waterloo, any ideas where I can get proof
????, any thoughts where i can find out more a book etc etc etc
Geoff do you know any thing about the 1 East Lancashire Reg/t ?

The place to look for regiments is the web-site which I gave in .
the last reply. The home page is http://www.regiments.org/
There are lists of books which may help research each regiment.

Also, going back to my last reply, have a search for the Naval and Military Press on the internet. They publish a lot of books

The Parish Chest is always worth a brose, this page covers suppliers of army (http://www.parishchest.com/shop/index.php?cmd=listdepts&cat=D1786) material.

[redbert]

Thanks again will browse the web site supplied Cheers, let you know how i get on, but in the meantime, if you find anything that might help me, i would be grateful Cheers Bert

[redbert]

Hi Geoff, how are things with you, can you please if possible inform me the difference between the 5th Dragoon Guards & the 5th Inniskilling Dragoon Guards, as you know my G/G/G/ dad James King (professor) as i understand the 5th D/Guards were (Princess Charotte of Wales Reg/t) correct me if i am wrong geoff, can you tell ia Neil O.K emailed days ago, but he has no replied, is all well, hope to hear from you soon thanks Bert

[neil1821]

Hi,
I got a second email from you a while ago but still no attached files came through.
Not to worry.

I'm afraid I'm not able to answer emails at the drop of a hat! Other stuff gets in the way (like work!), plus I get hundreds of emails and it can take a while to work through them all!

5th DG's were 5th Dragoon Guards (Princess Charlotte of Wales's). In 1922 they amalgamated with the 6th Inniskilling Dragoons to form the 5th/6th Dragoons and then in 1927 their name changed to 5th Inniskilling Dragoon Guards.

It's all on the site Geoffers gave you.
http://www.regiments.org/regiments/uk/cav/DG5.htm
http://www.regiments.org/regiments/uk/cav/DG5Innis.htm

So at the time you're interested in they were named the former, but they're one and the same.

[redbert]

Hello Neil Sorry i did not intend to Jump the queue, i was concerned as to wether or not you received my emails with the attachments as i was having a problem with the system!!!!!!!!!!, It would appear that you did not receive them ?????? i can try again if thats O.K. with you, as it appears that E/R/Jay was transferred from the 1st East Lancashire Reg/t to the Kings Own Royal Lancashire Reg/t in 1916??????, but as i stated the odd bit is E/R/JAy in the Uniform of LANCs/Fus/r, any thoughts Neil!!!!!
Thanks for clearing the Dragoons issue up, most grateful.
i have some one going to KEW for me to look for the Trumpet/Major !!!!!!!!!!
will let you know if we find any thing ?????
Cheers to you both & thanks Bert

[redbert]

Hello Geoff & Neil got some very good news, i have found Professor JAMES KING Military Band Music, or to be more specific his COMPOSITION's ( in total he composed 40 Titles from Marches to ballad's) very impressive, i discovered these records in the BL intergated/catalogue, i am awaiting on a researcher in DERBY looking up James King !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Geoff forgive me for asking have you any more thoughts on the KINGs at the battle of Waterloo, as to who could be James Kings Dad!!!!!!!!!! cheers Bert

[Geoffers]

Geoff forgive me for asking have you any more thoughts on the KINGs at the battle of Waterloo, as to who could be James Kings Dad. cheers Bert

Not really, apart from to say that I think you need to work backwards in time - establish the direct ancestor and work back to his father. This will be far more likely to give results than trying to establish which of several James KINGs who were at the battle was the father of your chap.

[redbert]

Thanks geoff will do Bert

[redbert]

Hello Geoffers & neil just to up date you, bought 3 Music compositions of J/ks music off the internet, had it played by a Concert/pianist who was most impressed with it, but sais it would sound better played by a full band, so i have contacted my local Sally/army, the BANDMASTER has agreed to arrange the music so the full brass band, it was a bit strange hearing it & thinking this could be the 1st time this music has been played in decades, it is very much the Victorian era Polks's & marches, but very stirring.
I have found his final resting/place in DERBY, & Local news paper articles that pay tribute to him being BANDMASTER for the DERBYSHIRE YEOMANRY (forgive my once more do know of this Reg/t) i have also found articles in THE BANDMASTER Journal, also paying tribute to J/K on his death in 1888, all in all it would appear that J/K was a very accomplished composer in his era!!!!!! But its strange that i can not find more data on him, i visited the 5th Dragoon Guards Museum in York, alas again very little on the 5th, more on the 7th Dragoons!!!!!!! should you find any info, please pass it on thanks redbert

[redbert]

Hi geoffers, did you read my message 27-5-08!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, as i dont see a reply !!!!!!!!!, awaiting a visit to WINCHESTER 20-7-08 to visit Hussars Museum, maybe find some clues about JAMES KING!!!!! Cheers keep you posted Bert

[Geoffers]

Apologies, I missed your last message but one ('tis the cricket season you know). - Glad to see you're having some success, if I get any inspiration, I'll update this thread.

[redbert]

Thanks geoffers, i am still trying to find J/K in Ireland!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, not much luck as yet Redbert
P.S. forgive my cheek but where would i find details of the 23 Rd Light Dragoons, as i beleive they were disbanded shortly after Waterloo !!!!!!!
Thanks

[Geoffers]

If you are after muster and description books, these should be at The National Archives at Kew. There may be reference to the regiment in a book available from a specialist supplier such as The Naval and Military Press.

[redbert]

Many Thanks G redbert