Two Thomas CRUMPs - almost a case of mistaken identity - from England to Australia

[Kerbent]

When doing research for my illusive Crump Ancestors, I thought I had finally located my mysterious x3gr Grandfather alas after considerable delving I discovered that he couldn't have be mine. Close but not close enough.

In Summary

Thomas Crump(2)
Birth c 1818, his native place of origin was listed as Bethnal Green, London
Thomas was convicted at the Central Criminal Court on 19/10/1840 of Larceny: Stealing a roll of flannel at the age of 22 and was sentenced to 7 years.
He spent 1 year, 5 months on a Hulk. In the records only one relative was mentioned an uncle whose name was John.
He was transport to Tasmania on the “Candahar” left Portsmouth on the 17/3/1842 and arrived in Van Demons Land on 21 July 1842

In August 1842 he spent his probation in a Station gang for seven months at Lovely Banks, which is north of Hobart on what is now known as the Midlands Highway.
He then moved to the Prisoner's Barracks where on the 19/5/1843 he was found to have been neglecting his work and as punishment he was given 6 days solitary & then on the 17/6/1843 in the Probation Prisoners' Barracks where once again he was found to be neglecting his work as punishment he was given two months hard labor on the roads presumably near Browns River.
He returned to the Prisoner's Barracks to various work assignments in Sandy Bay, Hobart, & Bridgewater and then back to Hobart where on 4/11/1844 in Abbott, Hobart he was charged with misconduct in resisting a constable in the execution of his duty he was put in solitary for 14 days.

He was granted permission to marry Lydia Johnson and they were married on the 6 April 1846 (Yr 1846, Reg#2321) in Hobart.
Together they had 6 children
1. Thomas Henry Crump born 12 Dec 1846 (Yr1846, reg#2857)
2. John Walter Crump Born9 Oct 1848 (Yr1848, reg#3285) (died 22/11/1897)
3. Lucy Lydia Crump born 14 Apr 1851 (Yr1851, reg#3842)
4. Eliza Crump born 4 May 1853 (Yr 1853, reg#1853) (died 4/5/1853)
5. Eliza Crump born 3 May 1853 (Yr 1853, Reg#2249)
6. William Crump born 6 Apr 1854 (Yr1854, reg#4340)

He received his first ticket of freedom on the 7/7/1846 and his Free Certificate on the 19/10/1847
Inquest held on body in Hobart on 7 Nov 1866, the verdict saying he was accidentally killed.

Thomas Crump(1)
In contrast my ancestor Thomas Crump was born in 1815 - Kent, England and died in 13 Apr 1874 Hawthorn, Victoria, Australia. Immigrated: arriving in Victoria in, 1842. according to his death certificate. He married twice, details of his first wife are unknown. His second wife however was Selina Wheeler (Abt 1834 - 24 Jul 1899) married on 30 Dec 1850 in Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Their children were:
1. William Crump (1851-1866)
2. Theophilus Crump (1853-1930)
3. Albert Crump (Abt 1855- )
4. Walter Crump (Abt 1862-1923)
5. Christina Crump (Abt 1864-1882)
6. Thomas Crump (1866-1948)

I have not yet been able to find any reference to any of my Thomas' family of origin making it very hard to go back any further.

Still looking for the puzzle pieces

Sandra

[ChristineR]

From your dates, I thought you might not have these two.

Digger - Pioneer Index. Victoria 1836-1888

Surname: CRUMP
Given Names: Christina
Event: B
Spouse Surname/Father: Thomas
Spouse Gvn Names/Mother: Celina WHEELER
Birth Place: HAWT
Death Place:
Year: 1864
Reg Number: 2785

Surname: CRAMP
Given Names: William Weomus
Event: B
Spouse Surname/Father: Thomas
Spouse Gvn Names/Mother: Celicia
Birth Place: FLEM
Death Place:
Year: 1851
Reg Number: 10908
Denomination: METHODIST / WESLEYAN
Parish: (NOT STATED)
Fiche: 226


ChristineR :)

[Kerbent]

Hi Christine,
Thanks for the two additional references for William and Walter Crump I hadn't found them before. Now I've only got two more children to find - Albert Crump (Abt 1855- ) & Walter Crump (Abt 1862-1923) following your example I went to Pioneer index but no luck there - will as yet need to think a bit more laterally.
Thanks once again, Sandra

[ChristineR]

Hi Christine,
Thanks for the two additional references for William and Walter Crump I hadn't found them before. Now I've only got two more children to find - Albert Crump (Abt 1855- ) & Walter Crump (Abt 1862-1923) following your example I went to Pioneer index but no luck there - will as yet need to think a bit more laterally.
Thanks once again, Sandra

I had searched the Pioneer Index using wildcards - they were not there - I also looked in South Australia, Tasmania and NSW. They just were not registered. Civil reg was brought in July 1853, but they must not have been aware that they had to register a child until Christina. Young Theo's 1853 was a baptism held in the early part of the year (going from memory from when I looked it up). It was fairly common for births not to be registered during these years.

ChristineR

[KarenT]

Not sure if this fits/helps ~ Thomas Crump born about 1816 in Kent, England showing in the 1841 census in Kent. Occupation looks like it could be Baker.

Household Members:

Edith Crump 40
Thomas Crump 25
William Crump 13

[Kerbent]

Not sure if this fits/helps ~ Thomas Crump born about 1816 in Kent, England showing in the 1841 census in Kent. Occupation looks like it could be Baker.

Household Members:

Edith Crump 40
Thomas Crump 25
William Crump 13

Hi Karen,
This has opened up new possiblities for me.
You mentioned that the occupation reads Baker, my Thomas Crump was a brickmaker in Australia, can the wording be contorted into brickmaker? (an act of despiration I know)
Hmmm..... the difficulty is trying to decide on what I need to do next to figure out if this is my Thomas or another Thomas Crump. I suppose I need to figure out if this Thomas Crump was still around in the 1851 census and if so he couldn't be my Thomas who was by then in Australia.
When you searched for Thomas in the census were there many people with the same name?
Thanks once again for your help
Sandra

[Kerbent]

I had searched the Pioneer Index using wildcards - they were not there - I also looked in South Australia, Tasmania and NSW. They just were not registered. Civil reg was brought in July 1853, but they must not have been aware that they had to register a child until Christina. Young Theo's 1853 was a baptism held in the early part of the year (going from memory from when I looked it up). It was fairly common for births not to be registered during these years.

ChristineR

Thank you Christine,
Perhaps not registrying their children between 1854 and 1862 had something to do with their living circumstances. According to the land records during this time Thomas was involved in developing housing near Richmond Terrace in Melbourne and had a huge mortgage. They owned four lots of land presumably to make bricks on the block and then build the houses that they would sell. He sold the land just before Christina was born. The family moved away from Richmond just before she arrived
It maybe a mystery that is never solved.
Sandra

[ChristineR]

I do not believe that it cost anything to register a child's birth in Victoria at that time, it would be more a matter of knowing that they had to do so and then getting around to it.

It has been said that some parents thought having their child baptized was the same thing. These latter children may also have been done at the Wesleyan Methodist Church. Baptisms after July 1 1853 are not included in the Pioneer Index.

ChristineR

[KarenT]

Hi Karen,
This has opened up new possiblities for me.
You mentioned that the occupation reads Baker, my Thomas Crump was a brickmaker in Australia, can the wording be contorted into brickmaker? (an act of despiration I know)
Hmmm..... the difficulty is trying to decide on what I need to do next to figure out if this is my Thomas or another Thomas Crump. I suppose I need to figure out if this Thomas Crump was still around in the 1851 census and if so he couldn't be my Thomas who was by then in Australia.
When you searched for Thomas in the census were there many people with the same name?
Thanks once again for your help
Sandra

Sandra, the same Thomas Crump is in the 1851 Census. He was the only one with a birthdate close to what you're looking for and of Kent for the '51census.
He is 35 in '51 census and it states that Edith at 58 is his wife (it didn't state a relationship in the 41 census). The William is not there. The occupation in '51 is clearly Baker but with another word following I can't read, but def Baker is the first word.

I guess you need to find out if your Thomas was actually there when the census was taken; and when the ship actually left for Australia. Just maybe get a tighter timeframe??

More questions than answers!?
Karen

[ChristineR]

from Sandra's earlier post...


married on 30 Dec 1850 in Melbourne, Victoria, Australia

C :)

[KarenT]

from Sandra's earlier post...



C :)

I understand that he was here from 1842 - I was suggesting it needs to be established if he was in England at the time the census of 1841 was taken.

[Kerbent]

Sandra, the same Thomas Crump is in the 1851 Census. He was the only one with a birthdate close to what you're looking for and of Kent for the '51census.
He is 35 in '51 census and it states that Edith at 58 is his wife (it didn't state a relationship in the 41 census). The William is not there. The occupation in '51 is clearly Baker but with another word following I can't read, but def Baker is the first word.

I guess you need to find out if your Thomas was actually there when the census was taken; and when the ship actually left for Australia. Just maybe get a tighter timeframe??

More questions than answers!?
Karen

So it now looks like there were 3 Thomas Crumps born around 1815/16,

Thomas Crump who came to Victoria, Australia around 1842 and was possibly born in Kent England.
Thomas Crump who went to Tasmania, Australia as convict in 1840 and died in Tasmania
Thomas Crump who was born around 1815 and stayed in Kent and appeared in the 1841 and 1851 census, whose wife was much older than him and whose firstname was Edith

You're right it creates more questions than it answers, but at least now I have something to work with. Every little bit helps.
Thanks
Sandra

[Kerbent]

I do not believe that it cost anything to register a child's birth in Victoria at that time, it would be more a matter of knowing that they had to do so and then getting around to it. ChristineR

Hi Christine,
I did a little digging and found an interesting article concerning birth registrations in Victoria, Australia it goes for four pages but the bit that I thought was relevant is quoted below
"from 1853 to 1864, the father or mother of any child born, or the occupier of every home or tenement in which a birth occurred was expected to give notice to the Deputy Registrar in their district within fifteen days. Neglect to do so brought a fine of ten pounds. ..... The law stated 'After 60 days it shall not be lawful for the Deputy Registrar or the Registrar to registrar ....There was only one small window of opportunity for a late registration. This allowed registration after fifteen days but within six months if a solemn declaration was made by the father or guardian or person present at the birth, before the Deputy Registrar or the Chief Registrar (in Melbourne) and signed 'in the ', presumably the birth registration book.
Any attempt to register a birth after sixty days had passed without making the declaration, carried a further fine of five pounds as did any attempt to register a child after twelve months."

The article was called Unregistered Births in Victoria by Ada Ackerly which appeared in The Genealogist December 1998 page 150
So you are right it appears that it was free to register your children after their birth but failure to do so could incur costly fines so according to the article many people didn't follow up if they missed the deadline.
It all adds to the interest of the story, no wonder family history is so addictive.
I might see if they appear in the Compulsory Vacination Records for the area, if the records still exist that is.
Cheers
Sandra

[ChristineR]

I had an idea if it wasn't done within six months, then too bad, missed out, but I wasn't sure.

I didn't realize the 15 days bit, no wonder some of them got registered before they were named. I have had the mother noted as making solemn declaration, now I know why.

Thanks for that.
Christine :)

[KarenT]

So it now looks like there were 3 Thomas Crumps born around 1815/16,

Thomas Crump who came to Victoria, Australia around 1842 and was possibly born in Kent England.
Thomas Crump who went to Tasmania, Australia as convict in 1840 and died in Tasmania
Thomas Crump who was born around 1815 and stayed in Kent and appeared in the 1841 and 1851 census, whose wife was much older than him and whose firstname was Edith

You're right it creates more questions than it answers, but at least now I have something to work with. Every little bit helps.
Thanks
Sandra

If I think of anything else I'll let you know, for minute I thought of looking at the free bdm's but he's born too early.... must be getting late!

Also, just out of curiousity, is your Selina Wheeler connected at all to Frederick South Wheeler. His youngest daughter Maria was the first wife of an ancestor of mine but died aged 18yrs...though the marriage and death were in Sth Aust.

[Lenore]

I understand that he was here from 1842 - I was suggesting it needs to be established if he was in England at the time the census of 1841 was taken.


Unclaimed letters, 1843

at the Melbourne General Post Office, 1843



Melbourne Times, 7 Jan 1843

"Post Office, Melbourne31 December 1842 List of Letters lying in this office, unclaimed, accumulated since last publication of a list"


Crump, Thos

Above is a cut and paste from an index on my website which does confirm that there was a Thomas Crump in the Port Phillip District at least by late 1842, or that someone expected him to be here, and directed a letter that way.

The letters, by the way, no longer exist.




Do you know who the witnesses to the marriage were? Friends, family? shipmates? There may be some clues waiting there. Have you checked every Melbourne newspaper of the day for an obituary or death notice? Do you have copies of his Will? Have you checked all the available shipping indexes? - there are other indexes besides those online, such as coastal shipping indexes. Have you looked at the Australian Genealogical Computer Index (AGCI) a CD Index available at genealogical libraries? Have you checked all available post office directories? He may have been in partnership with someone in the early days. Have you visited a genealogical library and checked all the miscellaneous indexes they have available for the Port Phillip District?

No stone unturned is my motto.

Good luck,

Lenore