William Wells is lost

[v.wells]

William Wells b 1862 East Peckham in 1881 is found on census as a shoemaker, living with parents at Goblands, Hadlow, East Peckham - and this is correct.

1891 census RG 12, 344, 46, p19 shows him as a bootmaker in St. George in the East married to Sarah with Charles and Clement sons. I have magnified the image as big as I can and still can't make out the ages. And the ages don't make sense anyway. When I go with what is on the printed page and try to enter b of Charles (on A), he is announced as being beyond the age of William' adulthood.

I cannot find any of them in the 1901 census but have found 2 possible marriages which put him at about 17 at the time of marriage. Surely they can't all have disappeared? I don't think I'm going to get much of a break with this one?

[Geoffers]

Hello Vanessa - I see you finally got your photo on the forum - well done!

1891 census RG 12, 344, 46, p19 shows him

By him, do you mean William bn 1862, or his dad?

as a bootmaker in St. George in the East married to Sarah with Charles and Clement sons. I have magnified the image as big as I can and still can't make out the ages. And the ages don't make sense anyway. When I go with what is on the printed page and try to enter b of Charles (on A), he is announced as being beyond the age of William' adulthood.

The 1891 census for the above reference is difficult owing to the thick line drawn by the clerk. The ages appear to read:

William 56
Sarah 49
Charles (13/23?)
Clement 10

In 1881 the above family from the reference you gave appear as:

RG11/367 f46 p13
6, Hill St, St.Luke,
William WELLS, 46, porter, bn Kent
Sarah, wf, 37, bn Kent
children: Charley 13, Nelly 11, Clement 3 - all born in St.Lukes

Is this the 1881 entry to which you referred?

[Geoffers]

Further to the above, I cannot locate Charles/Charley's birth on a first glance through the GRO index (looking for a birth in Holborn) - though I have only looked for those with a first name of Charles rather than having two forenames where the second is Charles. His birth was before 1875 so may not have been registered (there was a certain degree of failure to register births before then - more especially in urban areas).

Clement's birth seems to be there:
March 1878 - WELLS, Clement - Holborn - 1b 829

[Sue Mackay]

Hadlow is not in Peckham but is in Kent, just outside Tonbridge. It's a very nice place too!

I found the 1881 census entry you refer to in Hadlow with William living with his parents Robert and Elizabeth, and they were in Hadlow in 1871 as well

RG10; Piece: 934; Folio: 22; Page: 37

[Peter Goodey]

Hadlow is not in Peckham but is in Kent, just outside Tonbridge.

East and West Peckham are a just couple of miles from Hadlow. Not to be confused with Peckham, Surrey.

[Geoffers]

Hadlow I found the 1881 census entry you refer to in Hadlow with William living with his parents Robert and Elizabeth, and they were in Hadlow in 1871 as well
RG10; Piece: 934; Folio: 22; Page: 37

In which case, in 1891:

Robert 63 and Elizabeth A 62 are living in Maidstone Road, Hadlow
He is shown as born Marden, she is shown as born Leigh
See RG12/682 f125 p19

The eldest son, Henry 35, his wife Elizth 44 and 3 children are living in East Peckham, Kent
See RG12/670 f113 p10

The youngest son Robert 26 is with a wife, Louisa 26 in Khartoum Terrace, Ditton
See RG12/668 f136 p17

Assuming that you are interested in the elusive William - do you know the name of his wife? If you are descended from him, what was the name of his child, when and where was he /she born?

PS - just as an afterthought - could he have joined the RN - see service records on documentsonline http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/
or possibly have joined the army?

[v.wells]

In which case, in 1891:

Robert 63 and Elizabeth A 62 are living in Maidstone Road, Hadlow
He is shown as born Marden, she is shown as born Leigh
See RG12/682 f125 p19

"This is right.She is actually from Ireland. This is the only census to show anything but Ireland."

The eldest son, Henry 35, his wife Elizth 44 and 3 children are living in East Peckham, Kent
See RG12/670 f113 p10

"Got him"

The youngest son Robert 26 is with a wife, Louisa 26 in Khartoum Terrace, Ditton
See RG12/668 f136 p17
"Got them."

Assuming that you are interested in the elusive William - do you know the name of his wife? If you are descended from him, what was the name of his child, when and where was he /she born?

"William is Robert's son. William would be my 3xgrt uncle, Robert my 3x granddad
I can't find him (William) in 1901 census. And the 1891 census didn't make sense with the ages."

PS - just as an afterthought - could he have joined the RN - see service records on documentsonline http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/
or possibly have joined the army?

THE TNA!!! What a thought to wreck my otherwise weird day! I guess I shall have to bite the bullet and do it though as I've run out of ideas. The only reason I connected with the 1891 census is because of the "bootmaker". There I go again assuming that they might be the same person. If I can't get a lead thru TNA I will just have to order the most likeliest m cert.

I don't understand how the multiquotes work so have put my answers in "".

[Geoffers]

The nearest match on the RN records is here (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=6848206&queryType=1&resultcount=1) the name and year are right, but birthplace is Sevenoaks, which is a bit north of Hadlow.

As mentioned, is he a direct ancestor? Do you have a child's birth certificate which gives both father's name; and mother's name and maiden name?


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[v.wells]

Geoffers
The William from Sevenoaks is related to another Wells BUT I'm not ruling it out. All my Wells's on this line were registered in Malling. As there are many William Wells born abt that time I have not ordered the b cert. As I mentioned before William (3xg uncle) is the son of Robert Wells (my 3x granddad) and Elizabeth Ann Humphries (Ford). I will have to order the marriage certs of both William Wells' who married Sarah? sometime after 1881.

[Geoffers]

All my Wells's on this line were registered in Malling.

Although East Peckham is/was in Malling - Hadlow, where your family is shown as being born in the 1881 census, is in Tunbridge - GENUKI (http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/ken.htm) shows this should be recorded as Tonbridge, but the GRO entries I've looked at all show it as Tunbridge.

As there are many William Wells born abt that time I have not ordered the b cert. As I mentioned before William (3xg uncle)

Ah right then, William isn't a direct ancestor

I will have to order the marriage certs of both William Wells' who married Sarah? sometime after 1881.

Baring in mind that the 1891 census entry showing William married to Sarah is not the census return you want, do you have another source for William marrying a Sarah?

In looking for William in 1891 and afterwards - bear in mind that census returns for institutions (asylums, prisons, workhouses) do sometimes just record individuals by initials.

[v.wells]

I shall look at it properly tomorrow, Geoffers! We've just cleared up after Christmas feast and I'm too tired to think. I was going by the 1891 census that matched bootmaker and shoemaker in 81. In 91 he's married to a Sarah. Sometimes I am wrong. But my instinct was to go with that and I searched out 2 possible Sarah's - but I will look at it tomorrow Boxing Day!

[Geoffers]

I shall look at it properly tomorrow, Geoffers! We've just cleared up after Christmas feast and I'm too tired to think.

Fair enough - I know the feeling

My thoughts would be along these lines:

You have the family of Robert WELLS and his wife in 1871 and 1881 census. Several of their children can be found in the 1891 census, but William seems to be difficult to locate. There is also no obvious match in 1901 (from the transcribed index). Losing someone in one census happens (damaged/destroyed entry, enumerator error, indexer error, just missing, etc), to not find them in two suggests to me that something else has happened.

1. Did William die between 1881 and 1901?

2. Does he appear in any institution, just recorded under initials?

3. Did William emigrate - does he appear in oveseas Census returns

4. Did William join the RN or Army, or the Merchant Navy?

5. When did Robert die? (He seems to have been in the 1901 census in Marden, aged 72) Did he leave a will in which he mentions William?

6. As an exercise in trying to identify him, you might find all Williams in the GRO index born 1860-1864 in Tunbridge, Malling and Sevenoaks districts and try to match them up with the 1881 census entries and also 1891 census entries (also checking for any Williams who may have died in infancy). Can your all the births be accounted for against census?

I would be inclined to think that the 1891 census of the William married to Sarah may turn out to be related, but is not your chap. Someone born 1862-ish would have been about 29 in 1891 and so rather unlikely to have had a 23 year old son.

It's a bit of a puzzle

Good luck

[v.wells]

Geoffers I agree! I think I will hunt up any death recs first, then military. I also have to search any family in Tonbridge and Deptford as they were the next port of call in the migration of 1/2 migrating towards London. Thanks! Did you see the thread "Age of witnessess"? That one is a real flipping headache as well! I can't swear as it is too early in the am here!