Samuel Nathan Re-Visited

[bobn]

I joined this site after seeing a posting by LADKYIS dated Oct 2006 re SAMUEL NATHAN having died due to blows on the head. My 2x great grandfather ABRAHAM NATHAN's marriage certificate Jan 1843 states father as Samuel Nathan occupation picture dealer. I would like to know if this is the same Samuel who married HANNAH MENDES in 1808. So far I have been unable to get this link and any confirmation would be great.

[Ladkyis]

I have seen this post, I have information, I am just back in the house after 2 days in the Wales Craft Council pavilion at the Winter Fair at the Royal Welsh Show ground. My eyes are scratchy and I am so tired my brain does not really function. But I will be back tomorrow, as soon as real life gets out of the way a bit.

Lots of info on Samuel and Hannah - the Samuel who was "feloniously killed and slayed"

[bobn]

Look forward to this. I hope you can confirm a positive link with my
2xggrandfather and your Samuel (hopefully also my 3xggrandfather)
Regds Bob

[Ladkyis]

I have now had a chance to look at my file and I do not have an Abraham as a child of Samuel and Hannah. What I have is a six year gap between Aaron (abt 1812) and Jane (abt1818).
There is also a David mentioned in the newspaper report of Samuel's death that I haven't put into his rightful place.

the 1841 census has this
HO107 1084/1 F8 p7/8
Borough Road, Southwark. (they lived at 1 Borough Road)

Samuel Nathan 55 General Dealer N (not born in same county)
Hannah do 50 (Something crossed out here) N
Sarah do 20 Bunce Maker Y
Jane do 20 do y
John do 20 General Dealer Y
Samuel do 15 do Y
Nancy do 15 Dress Maker Y
Rachael do 14 Y
Anna do 10 Y
Fanny do 8 Y
Henry do 6 Y

Bear in mind that ages of adults were rounded down but even so she was pretty old to have had Henry.

I will enquire within the Jewish Genealogical Society about finding records of births - and briths (cos Abraham is a boy) and see if we can make this connection.

[bobn]

Hi Ann
Well I worked from 1851 census that Sarah was born circa 1817; John was born 1819 from 1881 census; Samuel circa 1824 accounting for rounding up or down on the 1841 census; therefore there was a gap between these dates for Jane and possibly one other?
Abraham was born 1820/21 by my findings which would allow a time slot between these children. Abraham was born St Georges Southwark and from his marriage certificate in April 1843 it states father as Samuel a picture dealer. I understand that the word "deceased" was sometimes omitted on certificates.
I searched all the churches around Lambeth/Southwark/Bermondsey (about 20 in all)for his birth records at the London Metro Records office giving a few years either side and could find nothing. I took this to be either he has Jewish parents or non conformists. I also noted that most of the Nathans came from the East End from the census around that time.
Lets hope you can find something in your search.
Bob

[bobn]

There is another possible link which may show in other documents. Abraham married Mary Holt whose father was Thomas Holt a painter. Is it possible that he and Samuel were associates and possibly a witness for the prosecution??

[Ladkyis]

So have we found Abraham in the 1841 Census? He's not at home with Hannah and Samuel at 1 Borough Road. Is he in lodgings somewhere, perhaps.
I just looked at my notes and I don't have Aaron and his wife Jane in the 1841 either

[bobn]

Hi Ann
yes maybe; I found an Abraham born abt 1821 in Surrey; the registration district was in the parish of Merton with street address of Double Toll Gate. If this was him he was living with 2 other males all posted as no occupation. The 1841 census is patchy as you know and the information not as good as the latter census years. I found him again in the 1851 census, born St Georges Surrey and living in Southwark.
Bobn

[Ladkyis]

Well that's good! Now I am wondering if there was a row with his family and he left home and... I must try and curtail these flights of fantasy.

My puter can't see the scanner. I can see it, right there next to me on the desk but the puter can't see it, not this week. I have unplugged it from the USB port it WAS in and tomorrow before I start the puter up again I will plug it into a different port and see if the puter can see it then. Only than will I know if I can scan the pages I have or if I have to try and photograph what is already a photograph of the pages of a book of trial records - sigh - I wonder if anyone is going to LMA and could look at the original records for me.

[bobn]

- sigh - I wonder if anyone is going to LMA and could look at the original records for me.[/QUOTE]

For all concerned, the LMA is closed for refurbish until end of Feb 2008 so I was told.

[Ladkyis]

Well that sorts that out then LOL. The information has been around since 1842 so it won't hurt it to wait a coupl of months more.

[bobn]

Hi Ann
Would you kindly advise which book of trials you relate to as I was wondering if these are also held at the Guildhall Library in London. You also mentioned a Times report, would it be possible to have the date as I could also take a copy of that as well.
Bobn

[Ladkyis]

This thread

http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9759

is the one that gave me all the information. The date of the Times report was Wednesday 14th December 1842.

I am not sure what the book is called because a very kind lady who was doing research for a degree course found it for me.

[Ladkyis]

ok so I have now searched through the NATHAN folder and found the email the nice lady - whose name is Ruth - sent me. She said that the Original Old Bailey trial records are held at London Metropolitan Archive but they have copies at Kew. This was the book she photographed and sent the pictures to me and when my puter died I lost them - I had only the copies that I had printed off when they arrived.

[bobn]

Ok Ann thanks. I will not be able to get to Kew this side of christmas, however when I do will onpass a copy for you to put on the computer again. It will also be easier to find the Times report now I know the exact date.
By the way did you find anything about the births and briths re the sons??
Also do you have anything further back ie Samuels mother and father possibly from the marriage details please.
Regards

[Ladkyis]

according to Angela Shire's transcription of the Marriage Register of the Great Synagogue Samuel is Zanvil son of Nathan. I simply haven't had a chance to research anything because I have been busy attending The Christmas Craft fairs (not selling a lot). I have done the last one now and just as soon as I have sorted out the house ready for Christmas visitors I will have loads of time to start searching again.

[bobn]

OK Ann, have found the marriage register for Samuel/Hannah and now trying to trace the birth registers, have found one for Great Synagogue London, however, no Nathans born to Samuel there, so perhaps there are other synagogues in the vacinity to Borough Road. Will keep looking. Have a good Christmas.

[bobn]

Have followed up leads on Henry, son of Samuel and see that it was suggested he married Sarah Costa, however, that Henry was s of Isaac. I have found Henry s of Samuel married to an Emma from the LDS archives. Does that tally with your records Ann.

[Ladkyis]

You know far more than I do. I haven't had the time to chase any of Samuel's children except John. So I'll take your word for it.

I downloaded a copy of Samuel's will from TNA but then lost the hard drive on my computer. I had printed it though so I was able to have a copy and to transcribe it. He doesn't mention any od his children and leaves absolutely everything to his wife Hannah. His son John is one of the witnesses

[bobn]

Yes Ann, I mentioned this because it looked as though you/we had connections with the Lyons family (of fame), but that may be a red herring. However, I also wondered if you had found any of Samuels brothers or sisters and IF one of those was an Isaac, then he could have had an Henry who went on to marry Sarah Costa???
BTW Do you take pm's??

[Ladkyis]

My late Aunt had three family stories that were brought out at gatherings and Sunday tea.

1. Gran (my great grandmother) was an actress, went all over the world acting

This is true

2. There's a Spanish Jewess in our family

This is true - Hannah Mendes

3. We are related to the Lyons family of Lyons Corner House fame

This I have not yet proved or disproved although one on John NATHAN's daughters married a Samuel LYONS. I have not had the time to delve deeply into Samuel NATHAN's siblings - goodness I have only been at it for 12 years! :D Perhaps this is the year for discovering more about Samuel and his parents and family.

[bobn]

Thanks Ann
do you have the siblings of Hannah Mendes please, I was wondering if one of them was an Abraham as that would tie in with the Lyons family.
I believe there was Soloman and Louis as brothers of Samuel, and others I would think.
So Hannah was Spanish; do you have any ideas on Nathan Nathan???
BTW do you take pm's

[Ladkyis]

Hannah was Sephardi according to information from another researcher she had brothers

These are the children of David MENDES
Jacob/John b about 1787 London City
Abraham
Hannah


Jacob/John married Charlotte HABILHO
among his children was Rachel MENDES born 1823 who married Henry LYONS 1841 Dorset Street Spitalfields

yes I answer PMs

[bobn]

Thanks Ann
I was hoping Abraham was a son of David Mendes. This means that he went on to have a daughter Jane who in turn married Aaron Nathan in 1843.
Also pleaseed to see the connection with the Lyons family again since the Henry route was a red herring.
Will send pm also

[Ladkyis]

As far as I have found Aaron and Jane did not have any children. In the 1861 Census they have Elizabeth Nathan, niece, staying with them. This is my great grandmother. She grew up to become an actress, went to the Theatre Royal in Liverpool for her first job away from home and it was there that she met and married Charles John Guilfoyle-Seymour an Irish Catholic actor making the Irish part of me the biggest part.

[bobn]

Hi Ann
Likewise I haven't seen any children with Aaron and Jane.
By the way back in 29/11/07 you mentioned a David in the newspaper report?? I wondered what paper that was in??; not the Times so was there a Local paper also around that time?

[Ladkyis]

Just had a look through the file and the mention of David is in the court records that are in a book at the national archives at Kew. Apparently the original records are kept at the London Metropolitan Archives. The photograph I was sent is everso slightly out of focus and all I have are printed copies done with an ink cartridge that was running out. I was going to print them properly the next day when I had more time but that was the day when the puter fell off its perch and I lost everything.
I will buckle down and transcribe the report - it would be a good thing to put it into the notes on the family tree so it should be done.

[bobn]

I will be going to Kew at some time and/or the LMA when it re-opens and possibly obtain a new copy. However, if you do manage to transcribe before then would you mind posting a copy via e-mail. I believe the LMA reopens at the end of Feb. In the meantime I will start looking for a David in the census files.

[bobn]

Found a David Nathan born 1811 at St Georges Southwark living at 3/4 London Road and married to a Louisa. He was a furniture dealer as recorded in the 1851 census.

[Ladkyis]

Oh that sounds good, wouldn't that be just excellent - any children?

Oh my goodness! just looked at the address, they were all along that same road - John was there with his family at 25 (I think) until 1865 when there was a fire and his daughter Jane died. They moved to Old Kent Road and then to 230 Blackfriars Road where they were in 1871. in 1872 there was an advert in the Times for a sale of the Stock in Trade of John Nathan as he was retiring the list of artists is staggering, and then by 1881 they had moved back to London Road, this time at 125.

Oh I love it!

[bobn]

Hi Ann
yes they had children, ran out of time so will go back and get a list shortly.
Do you have a death date for John? When I first started digging I found an John Nathan, I believe in the 1901 census, as a Broker. Again I will check that out shortly.
Going back again do you have any idea birth place for Nathan Nathan??

[Ladkyis]

John NATHAN was born abt 1819 died 13 July 1906 at 34 Penton Place, Newington South, Southwark, London. His age is given as 88. The informant was his son Benjamin whose address was 65a Cambray Road Balham.

Cause of death Senile decay, exhaustion. certified by John Tanner MD

[bobn]

1851 Census
DAVID NATHAN 40; Loiusa 35 (born in Sudbury Suffolk); Louise 12;
Rosabelle 11; Lavinia 8; Charlotte 6; Sarah 3; Rachel 1+;
1861 Census
DAVID 52; Louisa 46; Louisa 21; Rosabella 20; Lavinia 17; Charlotte 16; Sarah 13; Rachel 11; David 9; Abigail 7.
Some of the names spelt differently but obviously the same children.

1891 Census
JOHN NATHAN 72 Widower, Dealer in fine arts.
Still at home Hannah 45; Leah 25 and Amelia 19.

I didn't know about Jane lost in the fire, tragic family what with Samuel as well??

[Ladkyis]

In The Jewish Victorian 1861-1870 by Doreen Berger there is a transcript of the report in the Jewish Chronicle dated Sept 1865 of the inquest on Jane Nathen who died in in a fire. One of the other children, one of the boys was injured when the fire brigade rescued him through a window and he was attended by a surgeon. The report doesn't name the boy. It doesn't name the girl that died but I looked for a death on the GRO index and sent for the certificate.
If you are of a nervous disposition the report is the stuff of nightmares!

[Ladkyis]

Today I received a message from someone who is researching the family of Silva NATHAN. I am so excited because this is the sister of my great grandmother.

They sent me lots of information, some of it conflicts with what I already have and some of it I don't have at all. I am now in the process of checking through all the people on their list to see who I have and don't have and who they have etc etc.

Still very exciting though, cos we can now connect them with the family in Australia.

AND we can learn a little more about our family - I think we are going to have to consider organising a NATHAN family get together.

[bobn]

Hi Ann
Yes this sounds interesting to have someone else on board. When you have sorted out the info perhaps you can post it up?
I have been researching through micro fiches and films recently but have not discovered anything new as yet. I sent for a marriage certificate for a SOLOMON NATHAN whom I believed could have been a brother to Samuel Nathan, however, his father turned out to be Nathaniel Nathan whereas it is believed that Samuel's father was Nathan. Whether there is some confusion with translations as in the Gt Synagogue Marriage Registers this Solomon Nathan was recorded to be the "son of Nathan Nathan" which prompted me to send off for the certificate. I have found other marriages also with the "son of Nathan" listed as the father but have not been able to find any other information on them in other areas.

[Marg S]

Hi,
I have just joined this list and to my surprise you are searching for a Samuel and Abraham NATHAN.

My ggg. grandfather was Samuel NATHAN b. abt 1798 London and died 1884 London. His wife must have died btn 1830 and 1841. Her name may have been Pauline?? His father was Nathan NATHAN.

Samuel had 4 sons - Edward b. abt. 1825, Abraham b. abt 1826, Louis b. abt 1828and Sanyon?? b. abt 1830.

1841 Census - Short St, Christchurch, London.
Samuel age 40 traveller, Edward age 17 traveller, Abraham age 15, Lewes age 13 & Sanyon 11 (male). No mother.

1845 - Samuel, 2 Short St, Bell Lane, married Catherine ELKAN , 16 New Street, Gravel Lane, East London.

1851 Census - 23 Old Rutland St, Mile End Town, London
Samuel 51, K. age 52, A. age 25, L. age 23, M?? age 22, S. ELHAM (Elkan?) age 19. Abraham, Lewis & M? or Sanyon? were born Commercial Rd, Middlesex, England. Simon was born Margate, Kent.

I have further info on Samuel, Edward and Louis (my gg. grandfather who came to Sydney, Aust.) but have not been able to find anything on Abraham or Sanyon (who could possibly be Samuel or Simon??).

Please let me know if this sounds familiar.

Thanks,
Marg S

[bobn]

Hi Marg
It appears this is not the same Samuel. The above quotes all refer to Samuel Nathan born 1873 and married to Hannah Mendes.
Regards

[Ladkyis]

Umm the date is a bit wrong there Bob, because Samuel was born around 1783-ish going by the age given when he died in 1842. It's those pesky tpiyng erros again :D

[bobn]

Thanks Ann....as you say must oil these fingers!!

[Ladkyis]

I have just spent far too long playi...... searching the Old Bailey records at

http://www.hrionline.ac.uk/ccc/forms/formMain.jsp

They have added new stuff so now the records go up to 1913.

Bob this means that we can see the trial of the men who killed Samuel - images of the pages of the book which is the trial transcript.
It is good to be able to read it and see that whatever it was that they said Samuel called Mounton it couldn't be printed in the transcript either.

[bobn]

I have just spent far too long playi...... searching the Old Bailey records at

http://www.hrionline.ac.uk/ccc/forms/formMain.jsp

They have added new stuff so now the records go up to 1913.

Bob this means that we can see the trial of the men who killed Samuel - images of the pages of the book which is the trial transcript.
It is good to be able to read it and see that whatever it was that they said Samuel called Mounton it couldn't be printed in the transcript either.

Hi Ann
I've taken a quick look at your new findings and ,as you say, it appears they were not so liberal in their publications. One can take a guess but whatever he was supposed to have said should be no excuse for only six months jail.

[Ladkyis]

It's all to do with when it happened and the attitude to..... ethnic differences. When you consider that Oliver Twist was written about six years previously it puts things into perspective a bit.
It made me feel really angry when I first read it and even now I find it has made me inclined to read anti semitism in far more than I would have before. I found myself thinking "This is my family! where is the justice?"
I can't change what happened and it surprised me how vehement I felt about it.
A learning experience all round I think

[bobn]

Hi Ann
Possibly we should have a grievance with Charles Dickens!
Did you have any luck with the relative researching Silva, I have seen some comments re Australia connections also. It appears that one or more of the children born to John Nathan/Sarah Green could be the ones that turned up in Australia??

[Ladkyis]

Quite a lot of interesting stuff and more names for the family tree from the descendant of Silva. I was able to give her all the stuff about Samuel too and I will be emailing her now you have reminded me so that she can look at the old bailey site and download the trial transcript if she wants to.

Four of the sons of John NATHAN went to Australia. Samuel, Abraham David and Benjamin. I am in touch with the granddaughter of benjamin. She sent me details of the names that were written in the back of the family prayer book. This is how I know how many children there were. What I don't know is which of the girls called herself Patti NATHAN and was on the stage at the same time as her sister Bessie.

[bobn]

Hi Ann
I have 13 children for John/Sarah but none appear to shorten or nickname to Patti. Could it be one of the wives of the sons?

[Ladkyis]

I don't know, All I have is a letter to the Sunday Times dated June 27 1875 which says

King's Cross Theatre - To the Editor of the Sunday Tomes - Sir - Will you kindly do me the favour to correct a mistake which appears in Last Sunday's paper. You there state that Patti Nathan took the part of Cordelia in Meg's Diversion and Bessie Nathan Mrs Netwell. Patti Nathan did not appear at all that evening and at very short notice I undertook to play the part of Cordelia for her and Miss Stewart of Mrs Netwell.- Yours &c Bessie Nathan.

Some where I have a copy of a review which calls them sisters but I can't see it at the moment

[Ladkyis]

I now have the marriage certificate of Hannah NATHAN, daughter of Samuel NATHAN and HAnnah MENDES. She married Benjamin Lyons, son of Joseph in 1861.
Now a fellow member of the Mendes/Heisser family group has called this particular Joseph "the Joe LYONS". If this is true then I have finally nailed the last of my auntie's stories.

off to update the family tree chart.

[Procat]

Congratulations Ladkyis. |jumphappy

[salcat]

The WDYTYA programme about Nigella Lawson had some information about the Lyons family, because her mother Vanessa Salmon "was an heiress born into the Lyons Coffee House dynasty".

I can't remember all the details, but it may give you a head start on the Lyons family.

S

[Ladkyis]

The WDYTYA programme about Nigella Lawson had some information about the Lyons family, because her mother Vanessa Salmon "was an heiress born into the Lyons Coffee House dynasty".

I can't remember all the details, but it may give you a head start on the Lyons family.

S


I watched it in the hope that she would show me the connection but as usual with this line of the family they never allow things to come easily LOl

[salcat]

Hey ho - that law again :D

but as my OH is fond of saying - if you can't take a joke, you shouldn't have joined. :D

S

[Ladkyis]

You know when you go back to information you have had for a long time and really REALLY look at it? well that's what I did tonight.
I realised last week that I didn't have a copy of John NATHAN and Sarah GREEN's marriage certificate so I sent for it. They were married at 37 Middlesex Street on 20th August 1845. by N Adler Chief Rabbi.
This is kind of what we already knew BUT in the age column they are both of full age.
According to the 1851 Census Sarah is 24 and therefore her year of birth would be around 1827 - but this would make her 18 at the most in 1845.
Now, let's look at the rest of the family.
John age 32 yep, that works out at 1819 and that's what seems to stay correct right through.
daughter Hannah age 11 ok..... WHAT!!! John and Sarah have been married six years and Hannah is eleven well that's possible I suppose but Sarah says she is 24 so Hannah was born when sarah was 14 and not married......
So now I look for Sarah Green on the 1841 census with her Father Abraham and her mother Rachel and I can't find her!
So now I am cross with myself for not seeing this before and I am wondering just what is going on here. Did John have a daughter from a previous relationship? was he married before? He is at home with his parents in 1841 and Hannah would have been one year old then so.... Oh head hurts now.