Disappearing Ancestors & Secrets?

[ShirleyB]

I have an ancestor who's parents i cannot find any information about. I have Elizabeths birth certificate but it does not give her fathers occupation. The greens do not appear on any of the census etc, I think it has something to do with the position of the family and what had occured, but it seems all trace has been wiped out. Can anyone tell me why or enlighten me how I can get this information please?

The info and story:
John Green b, Stoke Climsland , Cornwall
M
Jane Budge b, “ “

6th February 1823, Stoke Climsland, Cornwall

Issue: Elizabeth Budge Green b, 1827 Stoke Climsland Cornwall

The family later moved to Peverell Park – Plymouth and lived in a large house in the park grounds, which is still there to this day. (Checked with Plymouth council archives)
Elizabeth met and fell in love with James Williams, but was forbidden to marry him as her father thought him below her station.
She married him anyway and was disowned by her parents and subsequently dis –inherited. Uncle Terry told me that his gran (Esther) said Elizabeth had tried to visit her parents at one time with her, but the butler had instructions to turn her away, she was never reunited with her family. The house and park were given to Plymouth council. I have checked with Plymouth council Archives, and they are still there – the house I believe is called Pound house.

[MarkJ]

Well, is this them on the 1841 census -
HO107/134 Book 10 Folio 18 Page 10 Stoke Climsland
Venterdon
John Green,35,,Stone Cutter,In county,
Jane Green,,40,,In county,
Emily Green,,15,,In county,
John Green,9,,,Not in county,
William Green,6,,,In county,
Louise Green,,4m,,In county,

And Elizabeth -
folio 22 page 18
William Emmett,25,,Shoemaker,Not in county,
Mary Emmett,,30,,In county,
William Emmett,6,,,Not in county,
Mary Emmett,,3,,In county,
Ann Emmett,,11m,,In county,
Elizabeth Green,,14,Female Servant,In county,

Does this fit in with any of the info you have?

Any idea of the time scale for Elizabeths marriage?
Mark

[MarkJ]

In 1851, John seems to be a lodger with a family called Mason - still a stone cutter but shown as a widower.

You mention Elizabeth being dis-inherited? Does that mean that the family were well off? If the John I found in 1841 was the correct person (and there are no others in Stoke Climsland at the time) it would seem unlikely they were terribly well off.
I think it would be useful if we had a little more on James Williams - do you have anything on him at all?

Mark

[Peter Goodey]

If she was disinherited, there would have been a will. Was there?

[Wirral]

The GREENs don't seem to be well-off, but the BUDGEs were. There were at least 3 Budge farmers in the area listed in the censuses:
1861
John M. BUDGE b. 1815, 200 acres
Maurice BUDGE b. 1809, 120 acres
Richard M. BUDGE b. 1817, 250 acres
There is also William BUDGE, b. 1811, watch & clock maker, & William BUDGE b. 1787, Superannuated Inland Revenue Officer.
Maybe Elizabeth lost any inheritance that she wouild have received from her grandparents. Or perhaps the dis-inheriting story actually belongs to the previous generation & it was Jane BUDGE who was disinherited for marrying John GREEN, a stonecutter.

[Wirral]

I
The family later moved to Peverell Park – Plymouth and lived in a large house in the park grounds, which is still there to this day. (Checked with Plymouth council archives)
... but the butler had instructions to turn her away,....... the house I believe is called Pound house.
In all the censuses from 1841 - 1891, "Pounds" was owned by the HODGE family who were bankers & landowners. They had numerous servants (12 in 1881), including a butler. It sounds like a very grand house. I haven't yet found if the family was still there in 1901.
How certain are you of the trail back to John GREEN & Jane BUDGE? Do you have all the birth certificates & marriage certificates? You mention that you have Elizabeth's birth certificate, but birth certificates did not start until 1837 & she was apparently born in 1827. Could the name have been HODGE, rather than BUDGE?

[Wirral]

I can't find a picture of "Pounds", but have found some photos of Climsland & Venterdon where the BUDGEs & GREENs lived in 1841. http://www.callington.uk.net/Heritage/PicturesfromPast.htm
I'm surprised that James WILLIAMS was thought to be below Elizabeth in status, as he was a shipwright in H.M. dockyard.

[ShirleyB]

sorry, its the marriage certificate that i have.James and Elizabeth were married in Stoke Damerel on 23rd July 1848. The marriage was witnessed by a John Symons and Grace Alger. James was a shipwright, his father was a Sawyer. Both James and Elizabeth address was given as 15,Navy row Her fathers name is on the certificate, but there is a line through the Rank/Profession section.

James Williams b, 1825 Plymouth, Devon- he was a Shipwright
M
Elizabeth Budge Green
Issue:

Alethea M 1841
Esther J 1865
Elizabeth E 1854
James 1855
Jessie A 1862 - Married John Delbridge
John 1863
William F 1870

Williams/Webb

Joseph Webb Snr b, Circa 1839 Middlesex, London. A gentleman’s servant, he had an affair with
Henrietta Cost b1841, The Strand, Middlesex and had Joseph Anthony Webb born in 1862, St Giles, Middlesex as a result. They lived at no 62 Endell terrace.
Later evidence shows that Joseph jnr was put into a boys home when he was about 7or 8. There is documentation that shows that Henrietta Cost married one John Walker Norbury in 1871, so perhaps he did not want another mans child living with them. The date corresponds with the time he was sent to the “orphanage”, but he could have been put in to care soon after birth, as there are no records between the 1961 and 1971 census.

When he was 18, Joseph Anthony was a sailor on HMS Dryad along with Esther’s brother John. It is most likely that’s how he met Esther, by going on shore leave with John.

Joseph and Esther married on the 1st March 1885 at the parish church, St Giles Plymouth. James Williams and Bessie Chapping witnessed the marriage.
Joseph was a sailor on HMS Cambridge and Esther was residing at 3 Bedford cottages, St Giles.
On the marriage certificate, Joseph snr is down as a carriage maker, so Joseph must have had some contact with his father or knew of his whereabouts.

It was Esther that was the child taken to the manor house, my dads grandmother. Her and my grandmother apparently used to check the heritage claims section in a newspaper every week looking for "green Family fortune" but in his will he left it it all to Plymouth county council, the grounds are used as a park, but the family seem to be under the impression that the house was no longer there, however, the Plymouth council said the only house in Peverall park, was Pound House. However, although that part may be vague, John Budge Green was a man of wealth and of some kind of noble standing. Elizabeth was their only child. That information was told to myself by my parents when they were alive.

The other blank I came across in this part of the tree is Joseph Webb snr, he appears to have disappeared. There is some speculation that he and Henrietta Cost ran a pub and she got him drunk one night and paid a captain to have him shangied. Have heard from someone in New Zealand who is a descendant of a Joseph Webb who was a Govener Hobsons servant and went over there with him,, but again, details are sketchy here. This chap disappeared from NZ for a few years then went back again, did he father Joseph then she had him shangied a couple of years after that? thats what I am trying to find out or maybe this is a wrong lead. |help|
A big thankyou to all of you who have helped so far, it's good to have some expert help.

[MarkJ]

I think we need to try to confirm the details as much as possible here.
Perhaps someone with Devon census access could check for the families concerned. I would also be interested to see who was listed at Pound House for each census.
I tried searching for "Budge Green" and, apart from forum posts here and on another forum (presumably from ShirleyB, since it was a Caithness forum), I found nothing. Can you give a few details about John Budge Green which would indicate his position in society - that may help sort out more clues.

The most puzzling part is the Williams/Budge Green marriage. If - and it may not be the right Elizabeth of course (what does the marriage certificate state - dates, references) - the Elizabeth we have found is the correct one, then it seems to indicate that she was from a fairly ordinary family (father a stonecutter).
Slightly odd is that John Green married Jane Budge according to the information so far mentioned here - so where does John Budge Green come from? Presumably he is a brother of Elizabeth? It would not seem likely that John Green would take his wifes maiden name and put it into his own - the usual scenario is that the children have the wifes maiden name incorporated into their names - e.g Elizabeth Budge Green.

Mark

[Wirral]

I would also be interested to see who was listed at Pound House for each census.
William C. HODGE b.1802 Devonport, wife Ann, son Chapell + daughters, was living at "Pounds" in 1851 & 1861. The house was in the HODGE family in 1871, 1881, & 1891. I think yesterday I also found it in the HODGE family in 1841, but I've lost the reference.
1851 census HO107/1877 folio 709, page 14
1861 census RG9/1432 folio 6 page 8. In this census, there were 10 indoor servants + at least 9 outside servants.

[ShirleyB]

John is just John Green, not Budge Green, Im proberly getting mixed up with all this writing. Elizabeth was an only child so the Greens in the 1841 Census are not them, John Green could not have had any living relatives as he would have left his money and land to them surely, rather than the council. What ever his occupation and status, he was a wealthy man to have a large house with servants. I believe they moved to Peverall park when Elizabeth was a young child. If he was a man of status, would he be listed in a main census ?

[MarkJ]

Cheers Wirral. That would seem to rule out Pounds as the house in question - unless perhaps the Greens were resident there in an employee capacity. The other possibility is that there was another property in the area - ShirleyB does mention that her family believed the house to have been knocked down...
Mark

Cross posted with ShirleyB's post.

So if Elizabeth was an only child, we perhaps need to look for another John Green marrying a Jane Budge? Are you ruling out the John found earlier on the basis of any inheritence being left to the council? It is possible that if there was any money/property, it could have been left to the council, regardless of the number of children - perhaps they were already self made people who didn't need the money and it could have caused family friction? Just a thought.
If there was a sizeable inheritence, then a will must be involved. That would help to clear up the mystery.

Regardless of Johns status, he would be on the census.

[Wirral]

If he was a man of status, would he be listed in a main census ?
Even the Royal Family were listed on the census! See 1871 RG10/1302 f103 p1.

[Wirral]

William Chapell HODGE was born abt.1802 at Devonport & died in 1875 (GRO & IGI). He married Ann/Anna & had children including Chapell William HODGE. William C. HODGE lived at Pounds until his death, after that his son Chapell W. HODGE lived there until at least 1891. In the 1871 census Chapell W. was living next door at "Burleigh", another big house with lots of servants. Chapell W. appears to have had only daughters, which might explain why the Council ended up with the house. Chapell W. died in 1898. His will would say who got the money & the house.

The BUDGEs were landowners, or at least tenant farmers, so are likely to have either left wills or had their estate administered after they died. The wills of the family would say what happened to the money.

[ShirleyB]

Thanks, how would you find out about wills? Elizabeth married James at a young age so it's possible that she never lived at Peverell park, the information that she was disowned because she married James has been known in the family for many years. So that part has not been distorted and we have descendants of the Williams family in Plymouth, some of whom I am in contact with. Maybe the John and Jane in Stoke Climsland are not her parents, but according to the census, she was born in Stoke Climsland. As I said originally, thr trace back is so vague, I thought at one time she might have been illegiamate as a result of master/servant affair as she was definately an only child and her father was put down as John Green to cover it up, but then i have found affluent John and Jane Greens in other search sites, but no connections leading to Elizabeth. again |banghead|

ShirleyB

[ShirleyB]

The GREENs don't seem to be well-off, but the BUDGEs were.
Maybe Elizabeth lost any inheritance that she wouild have received from her grandparents. Or perhaps the dis-inheriting story actually belongs to the previous generation & it was Jane BUDGE who was disinherited for marrying John GREEN, a stonecutter.

this is the impression i got as there was a Jane Budge who was the sister of John Budge that seems to have disappered, then theres a Jane budge who married John Green and who appears to be 5 years younger than her. |help| confused again

[jeeb]

John is just John Green, not Budge Green, Im proberly getting mixed up with all this writing. Elizabeth was an only child so the Greens in the 1841 Census are not them, ?

Hi Shirley,
According to information on the IGI John & Jane Green baptised Elizabeth Budge Green at Stoke Climsland 29 Apr 1827. They also baptised Emily Newill Green 24 Aug 1823 & Louise Ellen Green 4 Apr 1841 at Stoke Climsland.

Re look at the 1841 census information provided by Mark.

Jeremy

[MarkJ]

From Jeremys comment and the census info, I think that Wirrals suggestion - that you are perhaps looking at the wrong generation here - may be the issue? It certainly seems that Elizabeth was not an only child and her parents don't seem to fit the role of rich girl being disowned. Perhaps we need to look at the previous generation?

Mark

[jeeb]

Hi Shirley,

It is wise to remember that family legend and hearsay are often exaggerated, so be prepared that the 'facts' as you know them may not be the truth. It could be that Elizabeth Green 'invented' her wealthy background to impress James Williams, one reason father's occupation might have been left off marriage certificate and her saying she was an only child! My mother always believed that her great grandfather owned a large house and gardens in Gloucestershire in mid 19th century but the census revealed he was merely the gardener living on the Estate.

Jeremy

[MythicalMarian]

the information that she was disowned because she married James has been known in the family for many years. So that part has not been distorted.

ShirleyB

Hi, Shirley - just offering my two penn'orth. A word of warning about things 'cast in stone'. It was 'firmly established' that my great grandmother was Jewish and was cast out by her father for marrying a gentile. This persisted over three generations. Well - after kind staff at Manchester Synagogue gave me lots of help in trying to trace Jewish ancestry, I finally found my Absalom baptised at Manchester Cathedral in 1815, where his siblings were also dipped. His father came from Davenham in Cheshire and were staunch CofE attenders. So, I now take all 'anecdotes' with a pinch of salt, no matter how well established they have become.