Huguenot searches

[kathy15185]

Did anyone see the Who Do You Think You Are? programme on Julia Sawalha (series 3)? She was helped to trace her mother's family, the Dubocks back to France in the 17th century. Having missed the programme myself, is there anyone out there who can tell me what facilities the researcher used to trace the Dubocks to France?

Any info would be gratefully received. My father's family are likely to have been Huguenots, as the name would appear to come from a French village, and they are nearly all based in Kent.

Kathy

[hughar]

Details of the programme are at http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/familyhistory/get_started/wdytya_celeb_gallery_09.shtml

[Copper]

This might help you

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/familyhistory/bbc/series-three/julia-sawalha.asp

This is the site for the Huguenot Library at UCL

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/Library/huguenot.shtml#pub

If you scroll down there is a link to the French Huguenot hospital in Rochester, Kent. Maybe your ancestors were admitted there in the past. They would have had to prove that they were huguenots.

I am still trying to prove that my Cursue ancestors were Huguenots. I seem to remember that Julia was fortunate that her Huguenot ancstors were weavers. My earliest Cursue was a shipwright in Stoke Damerel.

[Peter Goodey]

Kathy

I don't claim to be an expert but I've recently been doing some Huguenot research so feel free to pick my brains as you wish (it probably won't take long:D)

I think the most important thing to do is to dig back in time using normal standard research techniques. Eventually you may reach a point where you can feel certain you've got a Huguenot family. There were certainly a number of Huguenots in Kent; there's a Huguenot chapel inside Canterbury Cathedral.

Unfortunately, just having a French sounding name doesn't really mean anything. Don't let assumptions and wishful thinking cloud your judgement. A non-Huguenot ancestry can be just as interesting.

[Ruth1]

Copper - you say that they needed some proof that they were Huguenots. Do you have any idea of the sort of proof required? It might solve a puzzle about a document from the C18 which has been handed down within my own family. I have managed to establish a Huguenot line but this French baptism document we have is puzzling as although the baptism took place in 1739, the document is a copy made in 1766.

[bwarnerok]

I've found it a real brickbanger when chasing my Hugenots. They resettled in Kaiserlauten mid-1650s and filled the graveyard with lots of their descendants. (Dedreux). It has been thought that they came from Dreux although Sedan is also a town that has been mentioned. We pick the Dreux family up in Dreux eventually but there's about a 200 year gap that is lacking in information despite other descendants searching in France. I imagine in some way they might be related to the Dedreux in the UK, but nothing has come from that search, same with some Dedreux in New Orleans in the US. Mine came to the US in the mid 1800s, dropped off a few in New York then carried on to Cleveland, Ohio.

-b-

[Peter Goodey]

this French baptism document we have is puzzling as although the baptism took place in 1739, the document is a copy made in 1766.

Do you mean in the French language or from France?

In this country, in the absence of birth certificates, copies of baptism certificates issued several years after the event were not uncommon.

[Ruth1]

Good question, Peter. The orignal copy doc we have is written in French and there is a 'proper' signature on it, not just the ordinary cursive script of the body of the document. Can we assume from the fancy flourished signature that the document itself was written in France? Or could it still have been copied in England?

The document itself is, as you can imagine, extremely fragile and where it has spent years folded up, is quite hard to read along those folds. My cousin had it translated a few years ago. What could be made out was the following:

Extract from the Register of Baptisms, Marriages, Burials etc of the Parish of St Honorinne La Chardonne for the article which follows.

In the year 1739 on the first day of October Margueritte Soucher, wife of Jacques Martin, presented us with a (son) boy who she said had been born to Charles Martin and Ann Colin, born on the previous day, who was baptised by us, the undersigned, Jebre, cure (priest) of this place and named Louis by Louis Jehanne (a Jehanne) accompanied by Marie Marchand who have declared – indecipherable

We the undersigned, cure of the parish of St Honorinne la Chardonne swear that the present extract conforms to the original in all its contents in the belief / essence of which we have signed it for its value as well as for its cause (reason?) at St Honorinne La Chardonne this end of Sep seventeen hundred and seventy six.

Have you seen anything like this before?

[Copper]

I don't know what proof they had to provide but I would think a baptism would be the obvious document.

If an exiled huguenot needed some help in this country from a French huguenot charity or similar, I guess they would try and get a copy of their baptism. Exiled huguenots who went to the French churches here would have their children baptised in the French church here. Their offspring would have no difficulty in proving that they were entitled to help from the Huguenot charities/hospitals here.

To cut a long story short two people in different generations of my Cursue tree traced back to huguenots. They escaped to Ireland and then arrived in this country, so I am told. It is a great pity that the researchers did not leave any paperwork. Ireland is a bit vague!

The only way to research is back in the usual way until you find somebody born in France. Even then you have to know where in France as the records are not centralised.

I am back to Stoke Dameral, Devon in the early 1800s. I have a large gap to fill. My lot were happy to marry and have their children baptised in the parish churches.

I am reading a book about huguenots and it says that in France the wives did take the name of the husband. In records they would be found under their maiden names.

[Peter Goodey]

Have you seen anything like this before?

I'm afraid French isn't my métier ;)

Ste Honorine la Chardonne is in Normandy. The document clearly isn't Huguenot but I'm afraid I can't guess what its significance might be in your family.

You say that you "managed to establish a Huguenot line". If Kathy doesn't mind us digressing, may I ask how you did that?

For the family I was researching, I flagged them up as Huguenot when I tracked them back to an entry made in 1678 in the Livre des Tésmoignages de l'Eglise de Threadneedle Street. I don't know whether that would satisfy the Huguenot Society.

[Ruth1]

Have traced back through the usual methods i.e. via census, certs and parish records. My 3x Great Grandmother was baptised in the French Huguenot Church in Threadneedle St, as were her 3 siblings. She was a silk weaver in all the census records - and we also have a document showing that she took over the indenture of an apprentice in 1818.

There was always a family story that my 5x Great Grandmother was smuggled to England hidden in a sack on a small fishing boat. I wonder how many other families have a similar story :). From what we can see, the family story is unlikely as wherever Louis Martin of the French baptism fits in, it seems unlikely he is another 2 generations back.

Given that the baptisms took place in the French Huguenot Church, I had hoped this was the evidence that I needed that they were indeed Huguenot. What does a Huguenot document look like?

Have two books on order which I hope will arrive on Saturday. I am hoping they will help.

[Peter Goodey]

Yup. I'd say that if you've tracked the family to a Huguenot church, you've established that they were Huguenots!

[Ruth1]

Thanks for confirming that. My cousin will be so pleased that at least I've managed to confirm that part of the family story is centred in reality. I just need to close the gap somehow between the baptism of 3x great Grandmother and that 1739 baptism.

Think my next move might be to order the Huguenot Society disc on denization records. Until I can get up to London again, a transcription seems the best way forward.

[Peter Goodey]

I just need to close the gap somehow between the baptism of 3x great Grandmother and that 1739 baptism.

But is there any relationship? A Roman Catholic baptism, albeit in France, doesn't seem to bear a very obvious relationship to the Huguenot community in England.

[Ruth1]

What makes you suspect it was a Roman Catholic baptism in the French doc? It hadn't occurred to me that it was.

My reason for believing a connection is because of the names involved. I have:

1739 Louis Martin, son of Charles Martin and Ann Colin (Martin). Would be unlikely that doc would be in the family papers if it didn't connect in some way.

Then my 3x great Grandmother and her siblings at the Threadneedle St Church:

1786 Jean Colin Martin (parents are given as Louis Martin and Sara Beatworth, widow of Morgan Jones and I have found the marriage of Louis and Sara 1785 but at the moment only on IGI so needs checking)
1788 Jean Levain Martin (same parents as above and same detail about Sara being the widow of Morgan Jones except her maiden name is recorded as Bestworth - have no idea about the significance of Levain)
1790 Ann Collin Martin (parents listed the same as immediately above; this one is my 3X great Grandmother)
1792 Susanne Collin Martin (parents as for previous two people)

It's that use of Col(l)in as a middle name which convinces me that in some way the 1739 baptism is linked with these later ones.

Another family story had it that Martin was a family name although at the time, that meant nothing to any of us. It's only since delving into the family history that it has gained some (only a little though) significance!

[Peter Goodey]

What makes you suspect it was a Roman Catholic baptism in the French doc? It hadn't occurred to me that it was.

Well, because of the date really. I rather thought that after the revocation of the Edict of Nantes and before the revolution, Protestanism in France was well and truly suppressed. I stand ready to be corrected. Also I rather doubt that a Huguenot minister would be termed curé.

My reason for believing a connection is because of the names involved.

Fair enough. I didn't know all the names.

[Ruth1]

I'm hoping that the books I have ordered might give me more insight. I did find a couple of other names from St Honorinne La Chardonne in the Threadneedle St records but unfortunately not the surname Martin and the date was much earlier. There was also an elusive reference when I googled it, to the place being a Huguenot stronghold but the link was useless so I couldn't find out where the information had come from in the first place. Such is life!

Thanks for the discussion though. It's so useful to get someone else's perspective.

[Peter Goodey]

Next time I'm somewhere with a decent collection of Huguenot literature, I'll see if I can spot your names. I think most of the volume are indexed.

[Ruth1]

Thank you, Peter, that's very kind of you.

[Copper]

This information may or may not be of any help to you -

Huguenot exiles from France in the Reign of Louis XIV
Naturalised by Royal Letters - Patent, Westminster

21 March 1682
Mary, wife of John Martin

8 March 1682
Paul Martin
Antoinette Martin

4 April 1685
Peter Martin

15 April 1687
John James Martin
Abraham Martin

18 Nov 1687
Gerrard Martin

5 Jan 1688
Philip Martines
Isaac Martin

8 May 1697
Louis Martin
Isaac Martin, Mary (wife), Isaac, James & Louis (sons)

9 Sep 1698
James Martin

11 March 1700
Peter Martin

3 July 1701
John Martin

[Copper]

This information may or may not be helpful -

Huguenot Exiles from Europe in England 1618-1688

Walloon Congregation of Canterbury - names of the Artisans, Strangers, Denisons & English

Jean Martin

Another section for the same place - English borne
Jean Martin

Sandwich 29 April 1622
Names of all the Strangers, House-holders, as well borne in the Towne, as elsewhere out of the Kings Dominions

Inhabitants of Sandwich - aliens borne
Peter Martine

Inhabitants of Sandwich - borne in Sandwich of Stranger parents

Peter Martine

[kathy15185]

Well, it sounds like I stimulated quite a discussion there! Thank you to everyone who has contributed so far and come up with suggestions and experiences. Good luck to those who have made headway, or who know for certain something about their Huguenot ancestry.

My reason for believing that my father's family originated in France lies in their name, and also the distribution of their name in 1881. The name is Sales, and there are three Sales villages in southern France. If you type Sales into the Surname Profiler for 1881, it shows a concentration in Kent, Sussex and Surrey. If you type Sale into it, the concentration is in Cheshire. Since a lot of Huguenots entered England via the Kent coast (and Sussex coast?), the Huguenot theory seems likely.

My suspicion is that there was more than just the one family that took on the name of Sales, given that in France it is a place name. Although I am leaving the study of Sales in Edenbridge and district and Westerham and district to other researchers with whom I have had contact, I am gathering data about other Sales in West Kent in general. It is a study that will take many years...

I have begun to search through the documents I have on CD from the Huguenot Society, and have found records with variants to the name, though no concrete links as yet. All of the places my ancestors' records appear in are in Kent. And I now need to find my 3x gt grandfather's baptism around 1791, rather than a very much earlier, and now not connected, ancestor around 1680. In fact, the search through the Huguenot documents has taken a back seat recently, as I try to catch up with entering parish register and census details into my database.

One problem, if you like, with my potential Huguenot family, is that there are no weavers. Most of them are ag labs, with a couple of rat catchers to add interest. Still I might find a different story WHEN I can get further back.

Kathy

[Copper]

I know how frustrating it is as I am struggling too.

I am sure that I read somewhere that Huguenots were educated people with trades. It doesn't mean that they were all weavers. If they were weavers in London and attended the French churches there, then that makes research much easier.

Some Huguenots fled to the Channel Islands and some fled to Ireland. In Ireland I think that some worked as weavers - Irish linen.

The search goes on - very slowy in my case.

[Ruth1]

Thanks for posting those Martin refs, Copper.

My books had arrived by the time I got home from work today so if I come across anything I think might be of interest to either Kathy or you, I'll add it to this thread.

[RichardE79]

Ruth

Was fascinated by your story, as it was so similar in many ways to my own.

I did some digging in the records, and found not only were our families stories similar, I think we may possibly even be related.

My ancestor Julien Bellenger came over around 1770, from St Georges-Des-Groisseluers, Lower Normandy, which is 6 miles away from St Honorine-la-Chardonne. (This was however his mothers village, his father Francois was born in Athis De L'orne, and his sister married and lived there, this is barely 1 mile from St Honorine-la-Chardonne, in fact the very next village to it)

Like your ancestor he bought with him to London a paper copy of his baptism dated 1770, though the actual year of the baptism was 1750. I believe it was usual for them to obtain this before fleeing, as it was the only real 'ID' you had in those days to prove who you were, important considering you were leaving behind all you ever had and all you ever knew from your previous life, most likely forever. Also the French churches in London in most circumstance required some form of 'proof' that newcommers really were who they said they were, genuine followers of the true faith, and not spies, as the French government did regulalry send undercover agents into the London French churches, and there was understandable paranioa towards newcommers as a result.

My ancestors baptism slip does actually state 'RPF' - protestant on it, which suprised me because as another poster rightly pointed out the RPF church was still very much outlawed at this time. I don't know whether a curate would mean yours were baptised Catholic, but have been looking through the same records I have used to trace my own ancestors in France, and yours are there too, and are definently RPF, so if they did do so, which is questionable, must have been at best for appearances only.

First definite record I can find of your ancestors in London is from 1775, but I do have reason to believe they were there before that, because on your baptism there is a reference to a Marie Marchand:

Margueritte Soucher, wife of Jacques Martin, presented us with a (son) boy who she said had been born to Charles Martin and Ann Colin, born on the previous day, who was baptised by us, the undersigned, Jebre, cure (priest) of this place and named Louis by Louis Jehanne (a Jehanne) accompanied by Marie Marchand who have declared – indecipherable


There is record of a Madelaine Marchand, aged 40, being admitted into the French Hospital London 1760, (where she was also die ten years later). Her two witnesses on admission are Charles Martin of the Parish of St Matthew Bethnal Green, Weaver and Lewis Collin of the Parish of Christ Church, Middlesex, also a Weaver.

I have also found some references to your family in some French sources, and there is a Lewis/Louis Collin, who married a Marie Martin in St Honorine-le-Chardonne 1751. Perhaps then he was a relation, and the Colline and Martin family came over together some time after this?

Originally, in London, they were members of the Artillery Church, Spitalfields, as were my Bellengers. Your Louis certainly had at least one brother Charles b.1750 circa., named after their father. He was married to Margeuritte Boheme/Bohana, and they had the following children baptised there:

Charles 1775
Marianne 1776
Jacob 1778
Ann 1781
Jarvais 1782
Thomas 1784


In 1786 the Artillery church closed down and it's 186 members joined the Threadneedle Street church, our ancestors gave Tesmoignages, testimonies of faith, in Threadneedle Street together at that time:

Julien Francois Jaques Bellanger and Elisabeth Mourgue [wife] 25 June 1786
Anne Bellenger of The Artillery Church 1786
Louis and Charles Martin of The Artillery Church 1786


The church, and French community in general, was in serious decline at this time, as you probably know most of the French refugees came over long before this 1680-1710, by this time 1780's/90's, most of them had married out into English families and particularly after the French Revolution started in 1789, and with the Napoleonic Wars between England and France soon after, most dropped any traces of their French heritage altogether. Hardly suprising, their were gangs of 'anti-french' mobs prowling the East End, so can't have been much fun for our ancestors, in contrast, relatively freshly arrived.

As a consequence, The Threadneedle church, once the busy hub of the community, was nothing like as crowded as it once had been, there were 25- 30 baptisms a year in 1790's, and maybe a dozen or so families regularly using the church, two of which were yours and mine, Martins and Bellengers, so I am sure they at very least knew eachother, coming over together from Artillery Church, probably quite well I'd say.

[RichardE79]

Oh forgot to say, about the possible relationship, Julien Bellengers great-grand son William John Clark Bellenger married a Caroline Martin in 1873, (my g-g-g grandparents). I traced her back to her grandfather (my 5x g
-grandfather) Thomas Martin born around 1795 (supposedly anyway) in Bethnal Green.

He was a silk weaver. Since they lived in a predominantly Huguenot area, followed a Huguenot trade, and married into a very strongly Huguenot family in the Bellengers, I reckon there is at least a possibility my Thomas was Huguenot too. Could he then be the son of Charles, born 1784 and therefore the nephew of your Louis? Maybe, maybe not, but the two families obviously knew eachother quite well and come from villages 1 mile apart in France, so must be a fair chance of it I reckon, never been able to pinpoint his birth anywhere so not impossible he may have given incorrect age on census's.

Also, as I say I have found some records of your Collins and Martins, on a French site, a personal family tree of a French geneaologist, and he also has some of my Bellengers as his ancestors too, so looks as if he is a distant cousin of both of us, and the two families were in any case related at least through marriage, in France, even if not related in England.

[Ruth1]

Richard- what you have to say is so interesting. Isn't it odd how suddenly connections suddenly appear out of the ether? I must direct my cousin, with whom I have been working on all this, to this thread and get her take on it too. I also need to digest your info more carefully.

I did consult a French national at work over the baptism record. They felt that although at the time the Protestant Church was not recognised, the members of that church would still refer to their religious leaders as 'priest' in any documentation and records they kept and that the use of the term 'cure' did not imply Roman Catholic worship.

Am going to print out what you have written and re-read.

I will be back!

[Ruth1]

Richard

I have sent you a PM, thinking that it would be easier to swap information by email.

[Ruth1]

Kathy

I have finished reading the Huguenot books I got. I can't say that they gave me a huge amount of help regarding specific questions but I did find the following passage which might be of interest to you, as you had concerns that your possible Huguenots were not weavers etc.

With reference to refugees in ports and towns in south-east England -'They were of all ranks and professions, including gentlemen, merchants, doctors, clergymen, students, schoolmasters, tradesmen, mechanics, artisans, shipwrights, mariners and labourers'. (Huguenot Ancestry - Currer-Briggs and Gambier) This sentence referred to the reign of Elizabeth 1st but that exhaustive list, appears to confirm that Huguenots could be ag labs just as much as they could have a skilled profession.

[kathy15185]

Ruth,

Thank you for that. I see I need not worry what occupations my ancestors had, but they could still have been Huguenots.

I restarted my search through the CDs I have from the Huguenot Society, and have come up with various people, not obviously related. I'm putting information that I find into a spreadsheet, as I can then rearrange the records according to date, record type (baptism, marriage, burial) or whatever. One interesting thing is that I found a Jacques Salé who was from Spain. Now, two of the the Sales villages in France lie south of Geneva, and so not very far from Spain. Could they have been settled originally by people with the name Sale or Sales from Spain? The plot thickens. More questions to be asked, and fewer answers!

Will keep digging, but probably after Christmas, unless I need some relaxation!

Kathy

[RichardE79]

Kathy

I have also come across athe surname Salle in my research. One of my descendants Etienne Mourgue came from Nimes in Languedoc, South France in 1722, when he was exiled along with 13 other men for an illegal meeting of protestants in a cave. One of the other men exiled to London was a Pierre Salle. Don't know if that's any help.

Regards

Richard

[sue adams]

I have a line with the surname Desanges, going back to Jean Francois Desanges b.abt 1692, died 1760. The children were baptised in Christ Church, Spitalfields, and the family business was silk dyeing. I have wondered if this family was Huguenot. Have any of you good folk found reference to this surname that would make it worth my while to research in that direction? I would be grateful for any pointers. Thank you.

Sue

[birdlip]

Ditto the name Duberry, from Bethnal Green, ropemakers and silk weavers. Anyone seen this name on Huguenot records?

This is SUCH an interesting thread!

regards birdlip

[kathy15185]

Sue and Birdlip,

Desanges and Duberry certainly sound Huguenot, don't they? Also the fact that they included silk weavers sounds very promising. I have some CDs that I bought from the Huguenot Society, and thought I would have a quick look to see whether the names appear in the indeces. I have by no means all of the CDs - just those that contain Sales equivalents. The following are some possible variants:

De Sain, De Saint, De Sin, De Saine, Desangim, Desanio

Du Brey, Du Brie, Duberh, Dubert

However, I would urge you to contact the secretary of the Huguenot Society, as she has access to all of the indeces, and much experience in finding names and their variants. I found her very helpful. Also, if you decide to order some CDs, I would advise you to request a French abbreviation glossary, so that you are not confused by the abbreviations in the documents.


Good luck,
Kathy

[birdlip]

Thanks very much for that, I'll certainly look into it. regards birdlip

[RichardE79]

Sue,
Could not find any trace of desanges in the records I have access to. There are a couple of Desgrangers admitted into the French Hopsital, originating from Poitou, and also a James De Sanger listed in the denization CD's dated 1541, but that's as near as I could get. Though I agree obviously a French surname, in a French area following a french trade, but strange they would baptise in the local Anglican church, rather than using any of the twenty odd French churches in London at that time, including many in Spitalfields. Have the feeling something else must have been going on there, and this may also account for lack of info on them in the French Huguenot records.

Birdlip likewise could not find Duberry. Agree with Kathy could well have originally have been Du Brie or Du Brey, which are both represented. Nearest I could find was a Jeanne Du Barri/Debarry one of the earliest admissions into the French Hospital London in 1712.


All best

Richard

[sue adams]

Richard and Kathy,

Thank you both very much for your input. It certainly seems worth pursuing if only to set my mind at rest. One Francis Desanges, bap. 1786, was a Sheriff by 1818, attending the Queen's birthday celebrations in that capacity, and stood (unsuccessfully) for Alderman in 1823. Maybe the family was anxious to integrate into their adopted country (if indeed they were immigrants) and avoided specifically french institutions. Still much to find out!

Sue

[birdlip]

Richard, sorry I haven't responded before, we've been away for a week and just got back. Thanks so much for looking for the Duberry name for me. I shall certainly bear those spelling variations in mind.

regards birdlip

[Tocky]

Hugenot churches up and down the land kept their own records, always in French as was their service. There was a sizable Hugenot settlement in London in and around Soho. I have baptism, birth, marriage and death records of a great many of my ancestors. Dublin had also a Hugenot influx and their main church was in Peter St and was called 'L'Eglise Francoise De Peter Street' Which is where the earliest ancestors of mine were wed in 1720.

A typical entry in their records is as follows...'Anne Du Mingaud-Le 2 Mars, 1720-1721, este batistee Anne Du Mingaud, fille de Jaque Mingaud et d'Elizabet Ferriss, sa femme; elle a eu pour parrain, Nioucoulas, et pour marrain, Anne du pair; qui nous ont dit que l'enfant estoit ne le 28 Fevrier 1720-1721.
PA. Ducasse'
After their next child Laurent they came to London and lived in the soho district. Eventually coming to Liverpool. I have recently discovered this as a direct result of being on this site, so thankyou.
My grandmother Magarete Mingaud was a direct descendent of Jaque and Elizabet.
Tocky

PS You would be surprised at the nunber of names we think of as non french are in fact Hugenot names, one celebrated one is the snooker player John Parrot...the real spelling is Parot. silent t. Moran, Bodan, Janson, Martin, and the pop singer's name (Bryan) Ferry. Mangon/Mangin, often thought of as an Irish name.

[kathy15185]

Tocky,

I haven't gone much into my Huguenot connections yet (genealogy has taken a back seat as increased family needs must be met), but so far, I have records only in parish churches. But I understand that this was not unusual, as Huguenot churches are much more widely spaced.

What I have done relatively recently, as a bit of light relief :-), is to look at France and Spain on Multimap, typing Sales into the search engine. I found two Sales places in north Spain, near the coast, one east of Toulouse, and two south of Geneva. I then tried Switzerland, Germany, Luxembourg and Belgium. I found Sales, or Salles in all except Germany (although I found 3 or 4 Salz). It read like a journey from Spain, around the western end of the Pyrenees, and over to the east, to be continued through the countries abutting France.

However, I realised that I had neglected Italy, which also has a border with France, so I've just looked that up on Multimap, and found a Sales place way over on the eastern side of Italy, north of Trieste. So, perhaps my theory doesn't quite hold up?

And why did I think of looking in Spain? Well, I found a Huguenot record of a Jacques Salé, who is described as 'Espagne', and there are some Sales in Spain who come up when searching for Sales in Skype.

I'm looking forward to having the time to look up more Huguenot connections, and probably need to do it in relatively small bites.

Good luck with yours.

Kathy

[Tocky]

The Hugenot story is a sad and fascinating one. The general term protestant is applied to them but they were a branch of protestantism in the same way as Calvinism, Wesleyan's etc. They were tolerated in Catholic France under Louis the 13ths predecessor, (Henry of Navarre,I think,though don't quote me on that one.) through a document called the edict of Nantes.
Along came Louis 13th who was much more able to be influenced by those around him resulting in the Edict being revoked and so the persecution of Hugenots began. Before a ban on them travelling, especially leaving France was put in force thousands of them fled to more liberal and tolerant countries.
Ireland was a favourite as was England...mostly countries with a protestant government or state faith of protestantism. Hugenots in france were forbidden to practice their faith in public at least. Their Priests etc were persecuted.
That is it in a nutshell. They were a talented group of people being silk weavers, silver/gold smiths etc. Their contribution to the artisan/craftsman class of the countries they settled in is a substantial one.
Good luck with yours. It is a fascinating part of our history and one that is much forgotten.
Tocky

[kathy15185]

Is there anyone out there who can translate 16th century French? It is the title to a register of some kind, and runs as follows:


Ensuyt les noms de ceux qui ont faict professiō de leur foy et admis a la Cene le 21 Decēbre 1567 (i.e. Ensuite les noms de ceux qui ont fait profession de leur foi et admis a la Cene le 21 Decembre 1567).

I'm not sure what 'Cene' means, but Babelfish translated the title as: "then the names of those which made profession of their faith and admitted has the cene", but I could not find a definition for 'cene'. However, PROMT-online came up with "Then the names of those who made occupation of their creed and accepted has the Last Supper".

Does anyone know what this is about? Does it have something to do with being confirmed? (Not having gone through such a process myself.)

Kathy

[arthurk]

I'd say you're pretty close with that. My version: "[Here] follow the names of those who made profession of their faith and [were] admitted to Holy Communion 21 December 1567."

My tiny French dictionary says la Cène is the Last Supper, which was the origin of the sacrament which is variously known in English as the Eucharist, Mass, or Holy Communion. I don't know anything about the specific Huguenot terminology, but this is almost certainly what it refers to. The document could, as you suggest, be a record of something like confirmation, but I'm wondering if it might alternatively be a record of something which devout believers did on a regular basis. You'd need to know more about Huguenot faith and practice, I think, to be sure.

Arthur

[RichardE79]

'La Cene' is the Eucharist.

I know my Huguenot ancestors, on arrival in Britian, gave testimonies of their faith in front of the congregation they were joining. This was usually at specific times of the year, and could therefore have been tied in with the Eucharist. Usually it was done by those new to the congregation, either because they were joining from another congregation locally, or had just arrived from one abroad. Also the children of pre existing members on reaching age considered to be 'full' anywhere from 13-24, but in my experience usually around 17-22, took part in the ceremony, so definently is in some ways similar to the confirmation that takes place in the Catholic faith.

[Peter Goodey]

I know my Huguenot ancestors, on arrival in Britian, gave testimonies of their faith in front of the congregation they were joining.

These were the témoignages - these are extremely useful sources because they normally stated where the person had previously been.

[kathy15185]

Thank you everyone who has responded re the French title. Fantastic. So, now I know that the register I was looking at yesterday on the CD is a register of those who were professing their faith on joining that particular church, probably on their arrival in England.

Incidentally, a lot has been said about the persecution of the French protestants, especially by the very knowledgeable Tocky, but I'm wondering what methods of persecution were used. Were they tortured? Were they forced to follow the Catholic faith? As unpleasant a thought as it might be, it seems of some importance to know what was actually done to them.

I suppose I should get hold of a good book about Huguenots. Does anyone have any recommendations?

So many questions!

Kathy

[Bo Peep]

The Huguenots (http://www.parishchest.com/shop/index.php?cmd=listlinkeditems&cat=D851&supplier=&breadcrumb=Bookshop%3AEmigration:Archive+CD+Books) - Their Settlements, Churches and Industries In England and Ireland - Samuel Smiles.

This excellent book gives an account of the causes which led to these great migrations into England, and describes the effects upon English and Irish industry as well as history.

[kathy15185]

Thanks Pam. Will get hold of it from somewhere, probably the library.

Kathy

[suedent]

There are some interesting articles in Wikipedia, especially those dealing with the background to the Wars of Religion & the St Bartholomew's Day Massacre.

[Peter Goodey]

So many questions!

There was an article in the May 2005 edition of Ancestry magazine, back numbers probably available.

Also look out for a re-run of Who Do You Think You Are with Julia Sawalha.

[Tocky]

Hugenots
A persecuted minority in France during most of the period from the early 1500s until 1789, the French Protestants were given the name Huguenots in the time of the Reformation. The word may come from the German word Eidgenossen, or "confederates," a term once applied to Swiss Protestants.

In their struggles for religious freedom, the Huguenots were driven to become a political party and even a "state within the state," headed by some of the greatest French nobles. By the middle of the 16th century, the Huguenots by their numbers and influence had aroused the fears of the Catholic party and the powerful family of Guise.

Eight separate religious wars followed. The first war began with an attack by the Duke of Guise and his followers on a congregation of Huguenots assembled for worship in a barn. A period of peace that followed the third war was broken in 1572 by the massacre of St. Bartholomew's Day, the most dreadful of the many crimes that marked this era of religious and civil warfare.
The Huguenot wars ended in 1598, when Henry IV--who had been a Huguenot but who had agreed to conform to the Roman Catholic Church--issued the Edict of Nantes. The edict gave the French Protestants political rights, religious freedom, and the possession of certain fortified towns.

Despite the edict, the Huguenots were still harassed and persecuted from time to time, and when Louis XIV revoked the Edict of Nantes in 1685, all protection of law was withdrawn from the Huguenots. Although they were forbidden to leave France, hundreds of thousands fled. They carried French arts, manufactures, and culture to England, Germany, the Netherlands, and the British colonies of North America.

The famous opera 'Les Huguenots' by Giacomo Meyerbeer uses the tragic times of the Huguenot persecutions for its plot. Its hero and heroine are killed in the massacre of St. Bartholomew's Day.

In 1589, the death of Henry III lead to the crowning of Henry as Henry IV. The signing of the Edict of Nantes in 1598 effectively ended the wars. His conversion to Catholicism in 1593 re-established a catholic king on the throne and the ending of the war with Spain in 1598 (the Treaty of Vervins) gave Henry the freedom to re-build France. It was the successor of Henry IV who revoked the edict of Nantes which led to the great migrations.
Tocky

[RichardE79]

Kathy,

I think the form the persecutions took will very much depend on the date and the region of France being talked about.

Yours seem to be the very earliest wave, most probably coming over after the Bartholomews Day Massacre. I have read very many of these eventually returned, because as Tocky has already covered soon after for a good time Protestantism was tolerated, with Henry of Navarre, the 'Protestant' King.

From my own experiences, my first Huguenot ancestors, like most others, came from the Paris area in the 17th century, around the Revocation of the Edit of Nantes in 1685. Basically this took away their religious freedoms. However they had started leaving around 1681, because of the 'Dragoons' soldiers billeted on their homes by Louis XIV who were encouraged to rape, loot, even murder with impunity. The only way to get rid of them was to renounce Protestantism and return to Catholicism, or flee, so naturally a great many chose the latter.

My second lot came over 1720's, from South of France. situation was quite different there, the towns and villages were in many cases 95% protestant so they chose to stay in many cases, and the region was the scene of guerilla warfare against the government for over a decade, and then immediately after was the birth place of the 'desert church' illegal meetings in fields, caves etc. If caught at these meetings, the pastors were executed, the women sent to the tower of Constancy, the men sent to the galleys or transported to the colonies.

I'm in the process of translating several documents about my ancestor, he was apparantly first sent to prison, then several pleas were made to release him and his colleagues, and angered the governer of the province instead increased his sentence to both life as a galley slave AND transportation to Louisiana! Him and his colleagues were then torutured for 2 months to see if they would recant, when they did not, they were branded with red hot irons V for slave on the shoulders, and then put in chains with common criminals, and marched across France in chains, with barely sleep or food for 30 days, before reaching their port of embarcation.

Obviously by the end of this they were all extremelly ill, two died, and the others were not expected to live either, so were hospitilised. All though they eventually recovered, this delay proved fortuitous as the Dutch and English governments got to hear of the public outcry and intervened on their behalf, and eventually managed to get their punishments commuted to life banishment to England. Queen Anne had also managed to get over a hundred protestant Galley Slaves their freedom 8 years earlier, so this was obviously a fairly common form of punishment for them at that time, and the source of some of the refugees.

The last great influx came 1750-1775, and were largely from the Normandy area. Earlier in this thread you may have seen myself and another poster both have relatives from this wave too. Ironically by this time most of France had reached tentative toleration of Protestantism and were again worshipping in the open. However in Normandy the authorities began to rigorously inforce one of the laws passed 70 years ealier by Louis XIV, that of 'enlevements' which basically mean the 'kidnapping' of protestant children, who were then taken away from their families the girls to convents and the boys to Catholic reform schools, taught their parents were sinners and brainwashed against them.

The persecutions, eventually stopped, official persecutions anyway, with the Act of toleration in 1778 (I think!). Ironically at this time England also passed an act of toleration for the Catholics there, which were followed by the Gordon Riots and the burning of Catholic homes and chapels. I have recently been going through the Papers of the British Ambassador Sutton in 1720, as part of my research, and it is interesting to read of the conversations between the British and French governments at this time. At one point the British were clearly told they had no right to criticise French persecutions when they were doing the same to Catholic. Sutton was told quite bruskly to remind them, 'the Protestants offer no threat to the French state and should immediately be tolerated, unlike the Catholics in England who are nearly all Jacobites and therefore traitors!'.

Aplogoies for length of this, have gone on a bit, but hope it is of some interest to you!

Richard

[Tocky]

No apologies Richard.
I myself through my own research have discovered Irish, Welsh and Hugenot as well as English ancestors. I used to think of myself as exclusively English but I can't claim that anymore except in the sense I was born in England as was my parents. I am now more like a big plum pudding full of exotic bits and pieces held in place by the mass of my Englisness...this has made me more appreciative, more searching and with a better understanding of history in general as well as my own history, It is one of the most positive sidelines of family research that we become better historians, almost be default as it were. When someone asks me where I'm from I answer, with tongue in cheek, 'Take your pick!' Dublin, Wexford, Flint, Liverpool, Languedoc in France. I embrace all of these and think it is so important that we know where we come from and from what kind of human stock...knowing that and knowing something of the times and tribulations they lived through we keep our ancestors alive in memory.
One of the most tiresome phrases I have come across is 'Moving forward'
But knowing where we come from and by that process knowing ourselves better we can be certain that when we do Move Forward we do so with a greater certainty than others.
Tocky

[kathy15185]

Indeed, Richard, no apologies are necessary.

Well, thank you both of you for your very knowledgeable information. Very interesting reading, which, if it is OK with you, I will copy into a document for future reference.

I agree with you, Tocky, about needing to know as much as possible in order to Move Forward effectively. I would like to add the comment that I believe that it is only by knowledge of past errors that a constructive and tolerant future can be secured.

Factionism seems to have been present throughout history. It seems the English believed that it was OK to not be tolerant of Catholics, when France was persecuting the Huguenots, which smacks of the hypocritical. For myself, I steer clear of religion. It seems to have caused, and is causing, far too much trouble.

Incidentally, I am only at a very early stage of my Huguenot investigations, and haven't found any Sales ancestors who I am certain were my ancestors. Not yet, anyway. I am slowly building up a spreadsheet of the records I find on my Huguenot Society CDs.

All the best everyone,

Kathy

[blacksheep]

My local library has the volumes of the huguenot society somewhere which I think lists all the huguenots they know of.

[Wilkes_ml]

I believe that my Ba(t)chel ancestors may be Huguenots. The name seems to be concentrated around the Canterbury area of Kent, and there only appears to be a couple of lines which are probably connected.

However, in the 17-1800's the family are having their children baptised in the parish Churchs.

William and Elizabeth Bachel had their children baptised at Woodnesborough (near Sandwich) from 1747 to 1754.

I have found a marriage in the IGI for William Bachell and Elizabeth Bartlet at St. Peters, Canterbury in 1736, again not a French church. So there are like to be children baptised somewhere from 1736-1747.

The earliest Bachell in the IGI is a marriage of Alice Bachell in 1633 at St.Paul Canterbury. So would this be too early to be a Huguenot?

I'm going to Canterbury Archives in a couple of weeks to search the registers and try to link the Bachel families, but was wondering if anyone had come across the name during their Huguenot research?

[benny1982]

Most of my East End ancestors were of Huguenot heritage.

They worshipped at the French Churches in Spitalfields right up to about 1776 from 1685 onwards then they began to intergrate into English people, one who was from Norfolk originally but had moved to London in about 1780. He wed a woman who was born in London in 1765 and all her grandparents were Londoners but I think 7 of her great grandparents were French Huguenot.

The surnames is Auber, Fradin, Bouron, Hallot, Pequin and Mardineaux. I have traced the French place of origin of the Hallot and Pequin lines abd possible now the Fradines to Claude Fradin born in about 1664.

Ben

[Thomasin]

Michelle - One of the branches of my husband's family were Petchell/Pechell/Patchell, reported to be Huguenots. By the 18th century they were Quakers, and centred around Lincolnshire and Yorkshire. Any use?

Thomasin

[Wilkes_ml]

Thanks Thomasin, it is possible they could be linked, however, my lot seem to be exclusive to East Kent, with one individual who migrated to Stepney, Middlesex in the mid 1800's.

I spent 5 hours in Canterbury archives trawling through the 16-1700's without much luck!

Does anyone know if Afre is a French forename??? It has come up twice in the Bachell family.

[Liz in France]

Hi to all Huguenot searchers,

I am fairly new at this geneaolgy game and remember my late father referring to our Huguenot ancestors. I did not take a lot of notice and wasn't sure if there was any truth in what he had said. However, since joining Genes Reunited, I have come across another member that also claims our family descended from Huguenots. She is part of the family that emigrated to Australia in the mid 1850's. so it could not have been by word of mouth that the rumour has spread. This makes me think there is a lot of truth in it now.

I would like to follow this up if I can and do not know where to start, so if there are any other HOLLARD family members out there with information, willing to share, I would be very grateful. Any other pointers would be a great help also. I have the family traced back to 1727 living in Somerset but I know there are others in Dorset and Wales.

I am going to read all the messages in this thread again to see if I can help myself.

Thanks to all,
Elizabeth|help|