Bettles-Hall

[Alasdair Hall]

Greetings. This is my first posting, and by the little reading of done so far on these forums you sound a very helpful and friendly bunch :-). I am a New Zealander, but have lived in the UK for the last 20 years. My father was English and left for NZ in 1928 as a fourteen year old military orphan. Regretfully he lost contact with his family and one of the reasons for me coming here was to see if I could find them. Well the good news is that I did. I re-united him with his sister in 1989, they had been lost since waving goodbye to each other 61 years earlier at Southampton Docks!
Where I am now is trying to discover the origins of the family name Bettles-Hall. Can any-one help?
The earliest I have is my great-grandfather whose discharge documents from the Royal Marines in1906 has him as Joseph Bettles Hall. However it is vague as to wether the Bettles is a second christian name, or part of the surname. He signs himself J B Hall. His birthdate is given as 11 June 1866, at Northampton, with his father's name being John, and his mother's Mary. The BMD registers using those details have not found him. Any suggestions?

[Geoffers]

There's an 1881 census entry
RG11/1544 f94 54
91, market Street, Northampton
John HALL, hd, mar, 30, brickmaker, bn Newcastle-on-Tyne
Mary A HALL, wf, mar, 36, Hollot, Northants
Joseph HALL, son, 14, brickmaker, bn Northampton

There's then a Joseph HALL whose birth is registered in Sept qtr 1866 at Thrapston, vol 3b p181.

Maybe his mum's maiden name was Bettles??

[Alasdair Hall]

Hi Geoffers, thanks for such a quick reply! Yes, I have come across this entry and it does look hopeful, however I have not been able to find Joseph's birth certificate so to confirn if his second name is Bettles. I have the Thapston one as you've kindly quoted, but it's not him.
Using the Free BMD site, I have searched the marriage data base for all Hall and Bettles weddings, but there's no record of either of these families coming togther?? I'd appreciate any suggestions or other help you can give. Thanks again.

[Geoffers]

This might be Joseph in 1891 census:

RG12/880 f14 p22 sch146
Caroline Place Alverstoke
Joseph HALL hd, mar, 26, Private R.M.L.I, bn Northampton
Alice HALL, wf, mar, 20, bn East Liss, Hampshire
Kathleen HALL, dau, 1, bn East Liss, Hampshire

A marriage in the GRO index then shows
March 1889, Petersfield, vol2c p181 Joseph Bettle HALL
(Bettle is included as a forename)
A corresponding entry exists for Alice PIERSON

If you don't have a copy, this marriage certificate may prove useful in following your research.

It may be that Joseph's birth was not registered - in the earlier decades of the GRO not all births were registered, the extenet varies but it seems more common in towns than rural areas.

Nte that freebmd is a useful tool, but is not complete and does contain errors, so you cannot be certain that a search for a BETTLES-HALL marriage will be found.

[Alasdair Hall]

Hi again! You are doing some fast research! Yes, this is Joseph I'm wanting the birth certificate for. I have the marriage certificate you quote. It lists his father as John Hall, Carpenter.
I have submitted two searches with the GRO for the ones that look the most likely from the BMD database, but with no joy.
It would appear that my only option is to continue submitting search requests (at £3 a go) widening the net until I find him? It would appear that going with the details I have from his Royal Marines discharge papers, either his birth-date is wrong, or his birth place?

[Geoffers]

It would appear that my only option is to continue submitting search requests (at £3 a go) widening the net until I find him? It would appear that going with the details I have from his Royal Marines discharge papers, either his birth-date is wrong, or his birth place?

Or, as mentioned - his birth was not registered in which case you may need to trawl the 1871 census to try and find him and then go to parish registers to try and locate a baptism.

[Alasdair Hall]

Thanks again Geoffers. Sorry if it appeared I had ignored your comment in your previous entry... when I read it, it had stopped at your suggeston about the marriage cert. When I read it again after your latest posting it would appear to have updated??
As you suggest, the 1871 has produced a hopeful, with the parish being St Giles. The Northampton Registrar archivist was very helpful and searched for me, but again without success.
It is probable that his parents were dissenters (non-conformists) as his marriage certificate has the word "established" church crossed out! I understand that Northampton Registrar does hold some non-confirmist records, but my budget doesn't run to employ one of their researchers just at the moment.
I take your comment about Free BMD. What other searchable BMD databases are there?

[Geoffers]

One other possibility - which may well be wrong.

Looking at the 1881 census which may be your Joseph, John Hall is quite young to be Joseph's dad (note though that the census entry I gave is from a transcript, which could be wrong).

Anyway, was Joseph born a BETTLE(S)? Searching the GRO index there is a Joseph BETTLE born Sept qtr 1867 in Ampthill (which isn't that far from Northamptonshire) Maybe the year of birth in the Marines record is wrong? (It happens).

Was Mary either a single mum who hitched up with John HALL, who adopted Joseph as his own? Was Mary previously married to a chap called BETTLE(S) who died or did a runner?

Just an idea to think about or keep at the back of your mind. In your shoes I'd go for the 1871 census first off to see if te family can be found and what that records.

[Geoffers]

What other searchable BMD databases are there?

There is the full GRO index, which you have to search the old fashioned way. It can be found on fiches at many county record offices - it can also be seen on pay-per-view sites such as findmypast, amongst others.

In your shoes I would take the birthday as being probably about right, but the birth year may be out a little. As he was born in June, he may appear in the June quarter or September quarter of the GRO index - a search of HALL and BETTLE(S) from say 1864 to 1868 would not be too lengthy or costly and may help you to come to the conclusion that he either is, or is not recorded. Do remember to look for entries where the second name is Joseph, he may have been born Arbuthnot Joseph and decided that Joseph was the lesser or two evils. Also do not discard registration districts near to Northampton, people have a habit of getting things wrong.

'tis a nice morning here, time to walk my dogs.

[Bo Peep]

Greetings. This is my first posting, and by the little reading of done so far on these forums you sound a very helpful and friendly bunch :-). I am a New Zealander, but have lived in the UK for the last 20 years. My father was English and left for NZ in 1928 as a fourteen year old military orphan. Regretfully he lost contact with his family and one of the reasons for me coming here was to see if I could find them. Well the good news is that I did. I re-united him with his sister in 1989, they had been lost since waving goodbye to each other 61 years earlier at Southampton Docks!
Where I am now is trying to discover the origins of the family name Bettles-Hall. Can any-one help?
The earliest I have is my great-grandfather whose discharge documents from the Royal Marines in1906 has him as Joseph Bettles Hall. However it is vague as to wether the Bettles is a second christian name, or part of the surname. He signs himself J B Hall. His birthdate is given as 11 June 1866, at Northampton, with his father's name being John, and his mother's Mary. The BMD registers using those details have not found him. Any suggestions?

|wave|Hello Alasdair and welcome to Brit-Gen. I hope you will enjoy being a member of our community.

I see that Geoffers has already started to help you with your research, so you are in very safe hands. Have fun.

[Alasdair Hall]

|book| Thanks Bo Peep. Yes Geoffers has been most encouraging, and given me some suggestions to keep me busy for a while! :)

[Alasdair Hall]

Geoffers, thanks for taking me outside the box!
From your last suggestions I have now researched with a new view.
Family HALL of the 1881 census does not appear in 1871. However we do have a BETTLE family in the 1871 census with the same wife's name, and with a Joseph as a son. However, family BETTLE does not appear in 1881. In both families the wife, Mary A., is born in Halcot. I think we may have the same mother and son, but different husbands??
There is a marriage listed March 1881 between a Mary Ann BETTLES and John Christopher HALL, Northampton 3b 97.
This looks a very good chance of where Joseph (my g-grandfather) may have got his Bettles Hall from. Yes??
How would I now go about confirming all this?
If we have got the right mother and son, I'm a bit puzzled why Mary is using the name BETTLES? I have not found a death for the possible first husband of James BETTLE (1871 census) and if she was divorced would she not return to her maiden name? Would the possible second marriage certificate help here? Looking forward to any help, Alasdair Bettle!! :-)
PS I've not ben able to find any record of the possible first marriage.

[Geoffers]

Family HALL of the 1881 census does not appear in 1871. However we do have a BETTLE family in the 1871 census with the same wife's name, and with a Joseph as a son.

Okedoke - waht's the dad's mame on the 1871 census return and are there any other children?

However, family BETTLE does not appear in 1881. In both families the wife, Mary A., is born in Halcot. I think we may have the same mother and son, but different husbands??

Sounds hopeful

There is a marriage listed March 1881 between a Mary Ann BETTLES and John Christopher HALL, Northampton 3b 97.

Well, two entries with the same reference - they may not ahve married each other, but in the circumstances it looks promising. In your shoes, i'd be getting that marriage certificate with a special interest in;

a) What Mary's marital state was

b) The recorded name of her father and his occupation

c) Who the witnesses were

This looks a very good chance of where Joseph (my g-grandfather) may have got his Bettles Hall from. Yes??

Looks very hopeful, John HALL may have brought up young Joseph as his own and wanted him to use his surname, mum may have wanted to keep hold of his birth name, so they settled on a compromise.

How would I now go about confirming all this?

A good start would be the marriage certificate - do you know how to order them online?

If we have got the right mother and son, I'm a bit puzzled why Mary is using the name BETTLES? I have not found a death for the possible first husband of James BETTLE (1871 census)

What criteria have you used to search? Could he be the James who popped his clogs at Lewes in 1880 aged 33?

Sorry for not replying sooner, my own fault for answering so many messages, I end up missing some replies.

[Alasdair Hall]

Family BETTLE (1871 census): Fathers name is James, age 23, b Northampton. No other children.


Marriage HALL/BETTLES (March 20 1881) certificate arrived today:

a) Mary's marital "condition" is widow. Her name is Mary Ann BETTLES.

b) Fathers name Thomas Brown, Labourer

c) Witnesses are William Lowe and Jane Lowe


Searching for James' death I searched only BETTLE. Ooops! Thanks for reminder of keeping all name options open! Yes, he could be the James who popped his clogs at Lewes in 1880 aged 33? :-)


Have today ordered possible copy of first marriage:
James BETTLE / Mary Ann BROWN 1870 March Northampton 3b 68
However the "now" mystery is that "their" son (1871 census), Joseph, the actual character that I'm trying to define, was approx. 3 years old when they married! I'll tackle that question once I have the certificate I think. |blush|

[Marilyn P]

Just trying to digest all of this
Alisdair, did the marriage certificate for James BETTLE and Mary Ann BROWN sort things out?

There was a Mary Ann Brown bapt in Holcot 6th apr 1845, does she fit agewise?

Marilyn

[Alasdair Hall]

Hi Marilyn,
Wow, this thread seems a long time ago :-)
Yes, I finally did get to the bottom of this conundrum. Is your interest personal with family, or just general interest? Why I ask is that to answer in full will take some effort, and at the moment I'm up to my ears with some exams!
Do let me know if it is a personal family interest and I will make the effort.
Regards, Alasdair

[Marilyn P]

Alasdair
I have a special interest in the families of Walgrave and the surrounding area (which includes Holcot).
But - the Mary Ann Brown that I mentioned is also part of a family that I researched for someone else and I have information that I can share with you if she is yours. When your exams are over of course....

A quick question - where did James and Mary Ann marry?

Marilyn

[Alasdair Hall]

Hi Marilyn,
You've got my curiousity now! :)
Yes, it seems we have the same Mary Ann BROWN.

Marriage of James BETTLES and Mary Ann BROWN, NRO reference 232p/18, 27 Feb 1870. Mary Ann was living at 97 Market Street Northampton, and James at 101.
Mary's father is Thomas BROWN, labourer. Witness signatories: John BROWN, Elizabeth BROWN.

The character I was looking for was Mary's son (my great grandfather) Joseph, born 11 Jun 1866, Northampton Poor Law Union. No father is given on the birth certificate.

It would appear that Joseph took his "step" fathers name, as he was baptised Joseph Brown son of James, brickmaker, and Mary Ann BETTLES of Hatton Park Road in 1872, age 6, at Wellingborough All Hallows, NRO reference: 350p/653 and 654.

A question I would like to "answer" at some stage, well as best as one can, is who was Joseph's father? I would like to know what family name I come from!

Hope this is of interest, and looking forward to your reply.

Kind regards, Alasdair.

[Marilyn P]

Alasdair

I will give you my personal email address in a private maessage.

Marilyn